Iraq war a task from God?

[Fin]

Associated Press, Wed 9-3-08

ANCHORAGE, Alaska - Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin told ministry students at her former church that the United States sent troops to fight in the Iraq war on a "task that is from God."

In an address last June, the Republican vice presidential candidate also urged ministry students to pray for a plan to build a $30 billion natural gas pipeline in the state, calling it "God's will."

Palin asked the students to pray for the troops in Iraq, and noted that her eldest son, Track, was expected to be deployed there.

"Our national leaders are sending them out on a task that is from God," she said. "That's what we have to make sure that we're praying for, that there is a plan and that plan is God's plan."

A video of the speech was posted at the Wasilla Assembly of God's Web site before finding its way on to other sites on the Internet.

Palin told graduating students of the church's School of Ministry, "What I need to do is strike a deal with you guys." As they preached the love of Jesus throughout Alaska, she said, she'd work to implement God's will from the governor's office, including creating jobs by building a pipeline to bring North Slope natural gas to North American markets.

"God's will has to be done in unifying people and companies to get that gas line built, so pray for that," she said.

"I can do my job there in developing our natural resources and doing things like getting the roads paved and making sure our troopers have their cop cars and their uniforms and their guns, and making sure our public schools are funded," she added. "But really all of that stuff doesn't do any good if the people of Alaska's heart isn't right with God."

Palin attended the evangelical church from the time she was a teenager until 2002, the church said in a statement posted on its Web site. She has continued to attend special conferences and meetings there. Religious conservatives have welcomed her selection as John McCain's running mate.

The Assemblies of God, which claims nearly 3 million members, is one of the biggest Pentecostal groups in the U.S. Unlike most other Christians — including most evangelicals — Pentecostals believe in "baptism in the Holy Spirit." That can manifest itself through speaking in tongues, modern-day prophesy and faith healing. The Assemblies of God teaches that spirit baptism must be accompanied by speaking in tongues. Still, some churchgoers never have the experience.

Rob Boston, a spokesman for Americans United for Separation of Church and State, lamented Palin's comments.

"I miss the days when pastors delivered sermons and politicians delivered political speeches," he said. "The United States is increasingly diverse religiously. The job of a president is to unify all those different people and bring them together around policy goals, not to act as a kind of national pastor and bring people to God."

The section of the church's Web site where videos of past sermons were posted was shut down Wednesday, and a message was posted saying that the site "was never intended to handle the traffic it has received in the last few days."

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Given that it was a commencement speech at a Christian school.. I have no problem with this. To me, it seems an appropriate place to express ones faith.

[Fin]

Given that it was a commencement speech at a Christian school.. I have no problem with this. To me, it seems an appropriate place to express ones faith.

Faith--yes. Complete disregard for separation of Church & State--no.

[SaGa]

most will see this as church and state not being seperated. but this was at a church. and this is her personal beliefs in god. a hidden agenda on her veiw of the war will turn heads

on a side note, many people in cristian circles believe this is the pre war of the end times. also fills in world war 1 and 2, chernobyl(aka wormwood), the golf war as the trumpets in the end time. with iraq being the 5th.(the apache helicopter being the locusts with faces of men and all that jazz) there are other theories about when the seals and trumpets where sounded that point back further in history

a war where anciant babylon used to sit, has turned many to find and look to these interpretations. in belief in the prophecies.

[sass_in_the_pants]

Why hasn't anybody talked about Obama's Jesus comments? You'd think those two played kickball together the way he talks about him.

[Fin]

Why hasn't anybody talked about Obama's Jesus comments? You'd think those two played kickball together the way he talks about him.

Religion & faith are not the issue here.

Lack of appropriate respect for separation of Church & State are. The separation has been inferred from the Constitution's first amendment since the dawn of this nation. The distinction was created, & should be honored.

[Rev.Reverence]

Religion & faith are not the issue here.

Lack of appropriate respect for separation of Church & State are. The separation has been inferred from the Constitution's first amendment since the dawn of this nation. The distinction was created, & should be honored.

Preach on Doc..... till they hear... oh, wait, I meant listen...

[sass_in_the_pants]

If what Palin said was wrong, and what Obama said:

"But kneeling beneath that cross on the South Side, I felt I heard God’s spirit beckoning me. I submitted myself to His will, and dedicated myself to discovering His truth and carrying out His works. "

was right, I guess I just don't see a huge difference between what each of them said.

was right, well, I must be missing something, because as far as their religious themes go, I don't hear them as being all that different.

Please, tell me the difference.

I'm trying to understand why Obama's comment was in play, but Palin's wasn't.

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

If what Palin said was wrong, and what Obama said:

"But kneeling beneath that cross on the South Side, I felt I heard God’s spirit beckoning me. I submitted myself to His will, and dedicated myself to discovering His truth and carrying out His works. "

was right, I guess I just don't see a huge difference between what each of them said.

was right, well, I must be missing something, because as far as their religious themes go, I don't hear them as being all that different.

Please, tell me the difference.

I'm trying to understand why Obama's comment was in play, but Palin's wasn't.

really?....you don't see how a man openly admitting that he had a change of faith is any different then a woman calling for a holy war and that a $30 billion dollar pipeline is "the will of God".

sass....comon now....we've had talks...I know your very intelligent....think about this one for a second.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

He's a Democrat... So, when he talks about God in almost every speech he gives... it doesn't count.

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

He's a Democrat... So, when he talks about God in almost every speech he gives... it doesn't count.

how in hell does his political affiliation supposed to dictate what he says concerning his personal faith??

[phee]

To me there is a big difference between saying: God bless our troops and look after them

vs.

God sent our troops to kill those people so protect them as they do so.... and God bless this oil line.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

how in hell does his political affiliation supposed to dictate what he says concerning his personal faith??

*sigh*

I didn;t say it dictated anything. I said he gets a pass because he is a Democrat.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

"Getting ready to talk to you today, I recall what Jesus said at the end of the Sermon on the Mount," Obama said at New Orleans' First Emmanuel Baptist Church. "He said, whoever hears these sayings of mine and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on a rock."

Our faith cannot be an idle faith. It requires more of us than Sundays at church, it requires more than just our daily prayer. It must be an active faith rooted in that most fundamental of all truths; That I am my brother's keeper. That I am my sister's keeper. That we must live that truth not only with the words but with good deeds.

These are not just crimes against man, they are sins against God, and they cannot exist without us speaking out.

“I just want all of you to pray that I can be an instrument of God….”

“My job is to try to draw a connection between the values that I express to the church and the challenges and issues that we face in politics.”

But what I am suggesting is this — secularists are wrong when they ask believers to leave their religion at the door before entering into the public square…. To say that men and women should not inject their “personal morality” into public policy debates is a practical absurdity; our law is by definition a codification of morality, much of it grounded in the Judeo-Christian tradition.

We’ve had too many years of bitter partisanship… I’ve just always been clear that my Christian faith has motivated me for 20 years and I’m not ashamed to talk about it, or the role that faith should play in our American life… My intention was to contrast the heated partisan rhetoric of a distinct minority of Christian leaders with the vast majority of Evangelical Christians… The real leaders are clergy and lay folks who are living out their faith every day in ways large and small, trying their best to determine how best to serve God and their fellow man…. For progressives, I think we should recognize the role that values and culture play in addressing some of our most urgent social problems… when a gang-banger shoots indiscriminately into a crowd because he feels somebody disrespected him, we’ve got a moral problem. There’s a hole in that young man’s heart - a hole that the government alone cannot fix. So solving these problems will require changes in government policy, but it will also require changes in hearts and a change in minds. I think progressives would do well to take this to heart…

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

*sigh*

I didn;t say it dictated anything. I said he gets a pass because he is a Democrat.

ohh...so now it's completely socially ok to talk about god if your a democrat, but not a republican??

WOW....are you running out of stuff inside your carpet bag, spin doctor??

There is a large differance, both politically and religiously, between the statements made by Barack Obama and the "holy war" and "Gods will is a gas pipe line" statements that Sarah Palin made

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

How is it different?

[n0Mad]

Lack of appropriate respect for separation of Church & State are. The separation has been inferred from the Constitution's first amendment since the dawn of this nation. The distinction was created, & should be honored.

Where? Show me where in the first amendment that there is separation of church and state.

Here's the text: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Let's take the first part, "Congress shall make no law respecting and establishment of religion". This was in regards to England establishing an official religion and forbidding the citizens to take part in any other religion. The first amendment states that the US government shall not say that one religion is the only religion. It means that you are free to worship who you want. Be Christian if you want, or Muslim, Jewish, even Atheist. Palin chooses to be Christian and the first amendment protects her right to be Christian, even in office. In fact, forcing her to refrain from any statements of God would violate her first amendment protected rights.

Now let's look at the next part, "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". Palin is free to discuss her religious beliefs, especially at a religious establishment like the aforementioned school. Whether she says "God bless our troops" or "God sent our troops" doesn't matter. She can believe what she wants and by stating her beliefs she is participating in the free exercise of her religion which is protected by the first amendment. If she were to state, "This is what you should believe too and as a government official, I am ordering you to do so," now that would violate the first part of the first amendment about making no law to establish religion and also the next part by preventing others from exercising their beliefs as they see fit.

Finally, let's look at the part that says, "or abridging the freedom of speech". To state that a person cannot express their beliefs simply because they are a government official would be abridging the freedom of speech and is a violation of the natural rights protected by the first amendment. So separation of church and state actually violates the first amendment rather than be supported by it.

I never thought I'd be quoting Hilary Clinton but I do have to tip my hat to her. She got it right when she said something to the effect of, "The first amendment gives us freedom of religion, not freedom from it."

[Guest GodfallenPromos]

Where? Show me where in the first amendment that there is separation of church and state.

Here's the text: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Let's take the first part, "Congress shall make no law respecting and establishment of religion". This was in regards to England establishing an official religion and forbidding the citizens to take part in any other religion. The first amendment states that the US government shall not say that one religion is the only religion. It means that you are free to worship who you want. Be Christian if you want, or Muslim, Jewish, even Atheist. Palin chooses to be Christian and the first amendment protects her right to be Christian, even in office. In fact, forcing her to refrain from any statements of God would violate her first amendment protected rights.

Now let's look at the next part, "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". Palin is free to discuss her religious beliefs, especially at a religious establishment like the aforementioned school. Whether she says "God bless our troops" or "God sent our troops" doesn't matter. She can believe what she wants and by stating her beliefs she is participating in the free exercise of her religion which is protected by the first amendment. If she were to state, "This is what you should believe too and as a government official, I am ordering you to do so," now that would violate the first part of the first amendment about making no law to establish religion and also the next part by preventing others from exercising their beliefs as they see fit.

Finally, let's look at the part that says, "or abridging the freedom of speech". To state that a person cannot express their beliefs simply because they are a government official would be abridging the freedom of speech and is a violation of the natural rights protected by the first amendment. So separation of church and state actually violates the first amendment rather than be supported by it.

I never thought I'd be quoting Hilary Clinton but I do have to tip my hat to her. She got it right when she said something to the effect of, "The first amendment gives us freedom of religion, not freedom from it."

+1 on the post, Spook...however...we are not arguing that Palin mentioned God...but the context that she used it. The Bush Administration has never stated anything near the lines of "we are sent on a HOLY war against Iraq". The war in Iraq is not a war over religion...and therefore not a holy war....if Palin believes that Iraq is a holy war, that tends to make us question her judgement, not her religious affiliation.

Secondly, "Godf sent our troops over there" and "God bless our troops" are two seperate things.

To say "God bless our troops" is to ask God for his protection during their tribulations.

To state that "God sent our troops over there" is coming close to claiming a holy war, which Palin went ahead and did anyway. there is a 40 mile wide differance between the words "sent" and "bless".

Also...I have a huge problem with "Gods will is a gas pipe line"....thats total crap on her part.

[violentivy]

Ok,

As much as Pagans like me would like to deny this fact; this country was built originally upon a Christian moral set. This means our politicians, if they have ANY chance of making it what so ever, must at least mention being religious. I don't like it, I don't understand it, but I do know this is the way that it is.

Having said that, someone simply mentioning a religious experience he or she had is considered acceptable. For example, Obama mentioning feeling religious and having the (paraphrased) "spirit of God" enter him is a lot different from Palin's (paraphrased) "God told us to make a oil pipeline and kill people." Its the difference between thought and action. Palin, in her own words, made an action in God's name; a Pipeline.

Where she is from, it is considered normal to say these things. It is a small town in Alaska, have you ever been to a small town here? The major tree lighting ceremony in any small town, the Mayor will say God this and God that. It is the way of a small town. Palin, if she makes it past this week as John McCain's running mate (I am not honestly sure McCain won't change his mind.) is going to learn the harsh realities of the rest of the US the hard way, through offending others.

Obama is trying to appeal to religious sorts. He knows that due to his race he could be a long shot because there is still racsim in this country, even today.

But what I would like to know... When did the Presidential canadates' choices for running mates go on trial? It's not like we get to CHOOSE who we would rather them have. Quite frankly, if it were for me to vote for any of the Vice Pres canidates, I wouldn't vote and I'd move to Canada because I dislike both of them.

People, it's as I am always saying, maybe not here, but elsewhere....

Religious-ness makes very little difference until you are dead.

No one can change politics, it is all already decided.

so, just be happy and stop arguing. We don't know how it's going to turn out. We can only do what we can.

I should have never entered this thread because I disagree completely with discussing politics in pleasent company. It causes too many arguments and too many problems. Everyone has something in common with one another, we shouldn't let petty differences about things we will likely never experience influence what we think of one another.

And you all think of me differently now, don't you? Some Fucking Bleeding heart Liberal, some Right Wing Bible Thumping Commando? Some Moderate who has some interesting views? Some idiot who knows nothing?

None of the above are true.

[Goth Brooks]

this country was built originally upon a Christian moral set.

incorrect.

demonstrably incorrect

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

PENNSYLVANIA CONSTITUTION

The foundation of the US Constitution. You should read up on the founding of Pennsylvania and the Quakers. That document was written based on the Quakers core beleifs. The link above is a good starting point.

[TitsMcGee]

What political leader (or someone trying to be) hasn't invoked God when it comes to things like this? As for seperation of church and state, I'd like to know when the hell that started? "In God We Trust" on the money, the fact that Congress and Senate pray before starting sessions. I don't know about you, but I don't see much of a seperation.

[violentivy]

First of all,

Quakers=Christian. You cannot say demonstratably incorrect than not demonstrate. Your argument is thrown out, I won the debate.

Secondly there is a theoretical separation. Thats all and thats it.

[Fin]

Where? Show me where in the first amendment that there is separation of church and state.

This has been inferred by historians, politicians & scholars since the Constitution was written.

The idea was not to prevent religious practice, but to keep religious extremists of any kind from controlling government.

[phee]

This has been inferred by historians, politicians & scholars since the Constitution was written.

The idea was not to prevent religious practice, but to keep religious extremists of any kind from controlling government.

Too late...