candyman

Hey I understand what you are saying. The only time I smoke when I eat is at the truck stops with the rest of the riders...that is just the way of life in the truck stops and that reminds me...truck stops are one more place where this ban is going to piss off more people and I HIGHLY doubt anyone new is going to attend after the ban. Other than than...no cigarette while eating please. Traditional fans suck...the principals of airflow that they use are very basic and consist of nothing more than moving the air somewhere other than where it was before. All the bars in my town have the smoke eater fan system which you get by calculating roof size to get the proper CFM numbers...and it also comes with a strong ventilation unit that will work with the fans if you do not wish to modify the existing air units. Simple, cheap, and VERY effective. I would have to say that even when all the fans are not running it is sometimes very difficult to tell that there is smoking going on in the bar...the effect is made even better if a door or window is open. Level in small and even large clubs can get pretty bad. Basement shows are the worst but even in the Rave in Milwaukee, which I still think has one of the largest stage areas around today, things can get fairly stuff. Although, unless the crowd is small and they are not exerting themselves to the music it is hard to tell if it is the cigarette smoke or the sweat, body odor, flying hair, flying beer, nasty steam from who know where, the smell from whatever the goop is covering the floor...it makes me stand by my statement of "who care about the smoking its is far from a health club". However, after burning myself in the hand at least twice at every show I hold off with the smoking until I am off in a crowdless corner...I cup my cigarettes in my hand as to avoid burning other people which gets me burned because it is my cigarette.

Its all going to be hearsay no matter what they sign into law. This is just going to lead to more court cases that will end up in a dropped charge. If the cop isn't on the scene to see that accident happen nothing will come out of it. Just tale advantage of the situation because in most cases the officer does not produce the ticket or charge by the books...and since the judges in these cases love their cops the don't want their lack of procedure to come to light so they drop the ticket. Or if you want to avoid all that shit get a Bluetooth ear piece, very cheap, and keep your cell phone in the glovebox until you reach your destination. Then you don't even need to pick it up to make or answer calls!

See you are just assuming that it is an absolute evil when really it is not. It has been said time and time again that the food we eat is not the only thing holding us back. Its a lack of many other things including an education system that has formed our kids into people that know about recycling and what is "green" and they also know how to scold people on their food choices and make political speeches based purely on party lines with no clear vision of individual issues...however they know very little when it comes to history, math, english, music, and physical education. The food is bad when it is abused and that goes for EVERYTHING...even good things can be abused to the point of being bad. Weak parenting is only a part...

It is still a stretch and it probably doesn't affect anything at all. Ok so it doesn't look pretty...since most places lack ash trays or have tiny sticks that are somehow supposed to act as cigarette receptacles what do you expect? If people start to say that smoking hurts the environment then it is a stretch...my organic chemistry teacher HATES cigarettes but even she admits that effects on the environment are not an issue and that they only cause the ground to look ugly.

I think they like the idea of banning things so that we can only do certain things where and when they want us to do them...or we can't do them at all. First they restrict one thing, then another, then another, and on and on just like that...it will just snowball...I believe I have said something to this effect many time before.

Its partly because of the rating systems. The other part is current regulations for weight...which is why you no longer get cars with proper horsepower to weight ratios. Engines are also running less efficiently despite all the "progress" we claim to have made...at least that applies to us here in the US. We run really shitty gasoline...VERY shitty gasoline in our vehicles! Our diesels are pretty much non-existent because Cali and their lap dogs are keeping diesel vehicles out of our country...bad idea because they would help us alot...good idea because our diesel fuel is also shitty and we waste money on worthless ethanol while we could be making a cheaper and much more productive bio-diesel. Yeah my friends CRX and my Prelude both get more mpg's that the cars today even with the new rating system. We have the capability to produce vehicles with the same results only better...however if the government allows a vehicle to be released here in the US the regulations often lead to an engine with only half of what it needs to do its job...they they slap an inefficient intake manifold and exhaust manifold on there to choke it to death...don't even get me started on the cam overlap because it is a travesty! But what do you expect when you live in a country that will impound your car and fine your thousands for putting performance parts into your vehicle? They can't understand the simple concept of engine breathing with the I/H/E combinations which means they will probably never understand the parallel between performance and efficiency/fuel economy. I have even showed people a bunch of "ricers" and muscle cars that were modded on the 5-gas analyzer and the graph showed emissions that were just as clean as most "SULEV" hamster wheels. Stoichiometry in relation to vehicle performance seems to have been lost along the way somewhere.

+1 I may be a step in the right direction but I see it as a step too far and now we have to fix a bunch of shit. However, the government has never been good at working on something to please everyone or anything with the word compromise in it. The filtration system is easy. Any system currently employed in a business, as long as its up to code, is more than capable of handling cigarette smoke. The only problem is getting the air up to the vents which is actually easily solved by using "smoke eaters" what are not just for smoke but are used in shops and such to keep the air around you clean. They look like roulette wheel and they really do eat smoke...they pull it up and push it off along the ceiling. And for air testing look at the reports from OSHA and other private testing companies. You would have to spend a LONG time in a bar with smoke being blown directly at you to reach the PEL hazard area. OSHA was sued by ASH, a group of crazy people, but the lawsuit was threatened when OSHA threatened a full release of their findings. Remember OSHA determines save levels of exposure for workers? I agree with you on most of all of your points except for the exposure part. If it were really that bad PPM and PEL levels would signal at least a small risk for a short time exposure. We would also be seeing more problems than we really are.

I did not realize that it was still posted in my profile...and I am only "quitting" for Basic Training...after that I will start up again. And yeah quitting smoking is one of my interests since it is easy to do and I have done it about 60 times! Plus, its still my choice to smoke or to quit smoking and people need to stop with the preaching.

Yeah but I heard about it before it popped up on that site. And considering the restrictions they are putting on new production engines I have a hard time believing it is a complete hoax...maybe that exact thing did not happen but the restrictions are going in...on top of the ones that we already have. Seriously it is dealing with an organization and can somehow not comprehend the data supporting high horsepower engines as being efficient. They conduct efficiency tests at WOT which would work if that isn't they only thing they test at. They can somehow make a 2007 Honda Civic get terrible gas mileage...they sent us reports on the "wastefulness" of forced induction and gave us "data" that contradicts everything done in the labs over the years. This article may be a hoax but I don't like whats going on with the regulations in America today...

Sweet now people won't think I am nuts when I say that I want to be mounted on my pogo stick for my viewing!

The story has been on the radio alot and I keep seeing it on the car forums but I can't seem to find the damn thing in an unbiased source. Dave Strickland appointed former Road & Track editor-in-chief John Dinkel to the post of Director of Vehicle Efficiency and Performance. I don't know if anyone can confirm or disprove this...but I sadly do not see this as a big stretch. We had been hearing a ton of crap like this in our engineering classes about how we have to tame this down and rework this...which would basically take us back to the Model T which I really wouldn't mind that much but still...

Again dude you can quit with the "smoking is bad" shit because most of the smokers on her already know that unless you assume we have a 6th grade education just because we smoke. Has anyone EVER said that they want all the bars and restaurants to go back to smoking forever? NO! Ever since the bans started I have heard almost every smoker agree that we do not care about restaurants but we would like to see compromise when it comes to bars...like owners choice or a 50/50 split of maybe even a limited number of smoking permits per county or something. More often then not the people defending smokers rights are offering solutions that would give all of us options. Yes I will be pissed that I can't smoke in my favorite bar and so will many other people. I suggest that you come to my town just to see what the situation here is when it come to smoking in bars. I can take you to Monkey Bar first because that is my home bar. There is no dress code but I would suggest that you wear black boots, jeans, and something leather over a T-shirt and if you show up on something besides a Harley make sure that you park it around the corner. Now walk inside and tell me and the other patrons to stop bitching and to free ourselves from the habit and he healthy! What will happen? I will tell you with emoticons...they are all like ...then its all ...then you are like ...and I say DILLIGAS? No cigarettes are not bad for everything...the taxes go towards hospitals for children all over the US unless Obama was lying to us. Tell me or any other smoker to be healthy, your version of healthy, one more time and I will give you an awesome look at your prostate so you can check for problems.

Hmmm...cops are not soldiers and soldiers are not cops...seems like an easy enough concept to me and I am not as certified as the officials in Chicago...how does that work out? Although, after what I have seen in Chicago, and SMELLED, I would LOVE to watch a few Army divisions go rolling through the city handing out ass whoopings. Crappy housing area supporting crime...meet Mr. Bradley assault vehicle and Mr. Abrams tank...OH LOOK a new bare city block to plant trees and small garden in...COOL! Hell, just give them a big pants-shitting scare and drop a few "daisy cutters" over the city...cheap and VERY effective.

Wow...so what if the smokers want to boycott bars which would in turn hurt the bar owners so that they lobby for change. If they know how to run a business then they should have factored in all the parts and looked at all the results. And in most states, well actually every state, there are really large organizations made up of bar owners, workers, and some patrons that they are supposed to discuss these issues and figure out a way to solve them before they present themselves to the local government. Plus all the people that boycotted bars because of all the smoke...don't they get a little blame too? It was done for their own reasons and so what if you don't agree? The only problem is that even in this economy I don't see any increase in the downward trend when it comes to bars...the ratio of bars closing to bars opening is staying on the same level path it has been on for years on a nationwide level. The one exception though is that it drops quite a few points when smoking bans hit on the graph...it just a few months where the ratio is fucked up and it doesn't recover all the way but it is not exposed because of how they measure things and make the graph far too large. In all the places with bans that I have been to in the US they don't treat you well when you have to step outside no matter what the weather is like. Most of the time it is because of the regulation in the ban that dictate how outdoor smoking areas must be setup to be legal. The outdoor smoking areas are usually too expensive or not feasible considering location for bars and such so they just don't do it. For instance the enclosed spaces in Madison must have 2-3 walls, no roof, and cannot contain furniture. Not bad eh? Well, that same "room" may not be connected to the bar and bar workers may not go into the shelter, remember this ban is to help protect them, and considering you may not bring your beer outside...WTF? Shelters may also not be made out of any flammable materials because we all know that cigarettes start fires very quickly. AND the big final straw for this being shit...no heating elements in outdoor smoking areas...so much for being warm in winter. You ever try to stay warm under a heating lamp in winter? Unless its a fully enclosed room with a roof and a bunch of heating lamps it is NOT going to work. Not to mention the electric bill you get with running those lamp is going to make you shit enough bricks to build a whole new addition to the bar! Dude...go around and ask smokers if they think it makes them look sexy...you will not get many positive responses. Its called a vice and I like mine. Better for my health? Really? Oh thank you SO much for letting me know I though it was the cure for my herpes! You know I can name alot of things that other people do that are not good for their health. I am sorry to tell all the non-smokers this but...remember to brace yourself here...you will eventually die too! OMFG! I smoke because I like it. I don't want to come to your side I have made more friend on the smoking deck and I will stay with them. If I want to look sexy I view that as me wearing my work clothes while holding a wrench and a shop towel leaning up against my car. If I want to look cool...well I will be real here I can't make myself look cool. I do healthy things to but in my mind I started dying long before I started smoking yet I still have my fun...maybe if your side had super awesome cookies I would think about coming over there... Oh yeah one last point...not that I hate you or anything but you made a rookie mistake when you said "why not just quit and join our SIDE". First off smokers are SICK of hearing "why not just quit" and the response I often hear and use is "why not just go and fuck yourself" because people don't like other people judging their vices like that. Second, people continue to divide us into SIDES which just makes things worse...if you don't want opposition then don't keep diving us up into statistics or sideshow acts. Why do smokers tend to get aggressive in these kinds of topics? Maybe because the statement you made is pretty much the verbal equivalent of poking us with pointy sticks while screaming how much better you are than us and how right you are. You are going to die to and up until that day your shit stinks too no matter how much healthy food you pack your colon with. Have a nice say...

Ok, it has been done differently in most states so I guess Michigan didn't fight it that well. However, in my belief a statewide smoking ban in ANY state should be similar to bans in other states if they want some measure of consistency. I mean if it is all good for us why is everything different? Why are hookah bars still running during the ban where you have to step outside for a cigarette? It doesn't make any sense...there is almost no similarity when it comes to bans in different states except for a few things. They all ban smoking in most buildings. The laws stating where you can still smoke are still fuzzy at best. No provisions are made for outdoor areas it just says you have to be out there...no the collapsing structures in Cali don't count as outdoor provisions. Sure it sucks that a minority makes it difficult for a majority. However the ban went too far in this area. Each individual bar has a different client base...and in some towns the client base a made up of mostly smokers. Tell me, how many of your 80% actually go to the bar on a regular basis? Do their trips to the bar pay the bar's bills? I am just talking about bars here not places that serve food and not even clubs...those places attract a wider base that bars do in most cases. The reasons the bans are shit are because of the lack of though put into them. Anyone who thinks that every single bar is for every single person is kidding themselves. I would LOVE for see alot of your 80% go into the bars that I frequent...really it would be terribly funny. Maybe they could park their Prius of Miata somewhere in between two Harleys that didn't close the gap in the line or maybe they could park under one of the lifted trucks. Oh and then they could go inside and sit between a biker in from a long ride and one of the farm hands in from a long day at the field and talk about how pissed off they are that the copy machine got jammed again...or how much their college homework sucks. The ban assumes too much and that is a problem. The whole idea that people are not going to most bars because of the smoke is bullshit. There are many types of bars just like the one I described about and I would bet both my testicles, my leather jacket, and my rebuilt shovelhead that once the ban falls over these bars there will be nobody rushing out of their house to attend them. If the ban used discretion and looked at the bars and who they attract and what those people want/like I think that things would be different. The bar owners could decide and then I am damn sure that there would be close to a 50/50 split between smoking and non-smoking bars. OH NO we would all get a little of what we want! Yeah you should have a choice...so should other people...

How fast do you need to go?!?! Hell in Michigan I could go past a Highway cop doing about 85-90 and not have to worry about getting pulled over...I can't really do that in many other states.

I don't know about what people did in Michigan but in Wisconsin the organization was easy...we have the Wisconsin Tavern League. The WTL represents the bars and the people that frequent them when it comes to decisions made in individual towns and even in the state capital. The WTL is the group that fought for sanctions and worked to get the bill changed to allow for exemptions...and it was easy for us to help vote because the meeting were at the bars. Surprisingly enough there was really no mention of their decision on a smoking ban when it came to candidates in the polls...guess it wasn't high enough on the priority list. Yes we are a minority. However, if smokers are the only people that would vote against a ban explain to me WHY or HOW the statewide bad was voted down twice before in Wisconsin? Hmmm? It seems of that such a small minority would be able to sway the public opinion that much if we were not doing anything. We did not have to fight beyond our weight class because we had friends. Most of the bans passed has been quickly slipped into a vote so that reaction time for opponents is very short. Also, most bans have not passed with a vast majority and again I will use Wisconsin as a reference here...the bill only passed by 1 vote even with them sneaking it in at the last minute. And dude you should know that smokers can't protest. With the condition we are in the walking and the shouting would have half of us passing out after one or two blocks...and we certainly can't hold signs big enough to see because that requires two hands which would leave no hand free to hold a cigarette.

Yes the comparison does work...these building are not really public. (I am only referring to bars here that is all I want) Most of these places can kick you out for almost any reason if they don't want to in there. The bar owner pretty much runs the bar like its an extension of his house...decorations, televisions, pool tables, food during Packers and Brewers games...most of the owners that I know spend WAY too much time at their bars. So when I used the home comparison I was just thinking of the bars...however here in Wisconsin we tend to look at our bars differently than most people...

In keeping with the ridiculousness of the ban I would like to speak up on behalf of all the people with ALLERGIES! Yeah I am a smoker that has been tested many times and have been told that I am allergic to cigarette smoke...no idea how that works out. Anyways, do any of you have ANY idea about the number of things you wear or use in public that can adversely affect those of us with allergies? My seasonal allergies have toned down alot with the shot that I receive...but when people walk into a room and they are wearing cologne or perfume that I can smell from a foot away my sinuses and my eyes react like I am in the middle of a fucking pollen storm. Sure after I get outside in the fresh air I clear up, after about an hour, but it still sucks. Some of you probably like to have fresh flowers in the house or raise some plants...the effects of pollen on allergy sufferers almost triples in an enclosed area even with HVAC systems. And what about candles? Or how about propellant driven cleaners or scents? All of these things are used in someones house because it is their way...it is my choice to stay or leave and I do not impose my wants on the owner of the house. I know my allergies and the reactions and I keep the proper medical devices on hand just in case. There are places I can go and places that I can't go...I accept that. Even though my occasionally stuffed up head would LOVE to control the use of the substances that cause the grief I would not feel any more joyful...I would be taking away things that make others joyful. Sad is the day when you get enough control of your world that you may go anywhere without suffering some sort of discomfort...discomfort is part of this world and if you feel none it is because it has been passed off onto others. Yes choices should be had but NOT at the expense of other no matter how small their group may be.

I just see it as an eye for an eye here. Now I could have been contradicting myself however I will not take any more action against someone other than blowing smoke or a horrible verbal beatdown. The justification is not really there because I will not take action in a bar fight unless it starts to pull in the innocent bystanders. I just give a warning to anyone that decides to tease a smoker that the drunk one WILL get into your face and will probably go ape shit on you...if it happens you share blame in the painful results. I just want to see an anti-smoker come into some of the biker bars I attend and start talking. Even a small comment about how "nice" the air is could get them into trouble. Wait a minute? Who the hell is going to go into a biker bar even after a smoking ban besides bikers that smoke and bikers that don't care about the smoke? Oh yeah...nobody...

Its only illegal if you get caught...

And what was all that supposed to prove? Yes I am passionate but using sentences out of context is not what I am looking for people to do with what I write. Yes I said don't be a dick no matter which side you are on. However, with some of the actions I have seen and from what people have been saying (mostly outside of this forum) there are situations where the gloves come off. Notice where you cut off my one quote where I spent a whole paragraph explaining myself for the little bit that you quoted which seems to incriminate me? From what I have been through on smoking decks in areas where there is a ban there is WAY too much bullshit going around. People will actually take the effort to go away from their original path just to come to the smoking decks to launch insults at us...no they don't really hurt because most of the insults seem to be on the 5th grade level. I have had stuff thrown at me by drunk people and I have seen it happen to other smokers. Now what I said about sore winners and sore losers. No most people won't blow smoke in your face on purpose and you must feel really proud if you base your views on the actions of a few. Now when the ban hits everywhere and you walk by a group of smokers outside what do you do? Oh yeah thats right you keep walking and if you do say anything to them maybe try to exchange pleasantries or something...or is it that hard to say "hi" to people?

Dude I get scolded by someone for lumping all non-smokers together, which I wasn't trying to do, and now you throw all of us smokers under the fucking bus? WOW! Look, smoking has been in bars since...well it has been that way for a while now and I think it would seem pretty obvious that bars are not health clubs and even if it is a good bar it tend to be a place where only certain people go. These certain people are called regulars. Now, if a bar has a bunch of regulars that smoke including the workers (I am using one of my home bars as a reference here) and the owner which has been going on since...well I think we figured out that smoking has been in bars for a while. Now a non-smoker walks into the bar...what now? Well, if he is a regular he probably has the respect of the other regulars and the workers and owner so they probably worked something out with his. However if he is NOT a regular then this is not his bar therefore if he does not like what is going on he can pretty much suck a dick. If you aren't at the bar more than once a week you are not paying the bills for that bar so why the hell should they cater to you? Its not we don't give a rats ass about non-smokers...its just that in areas like where I live smokers and non-smokers have lived in harmony all of these years and we STILL DO! As for the few bars we have that are non-smoking...well they make a nice quiet place to read a book and drink a beer on a weekend when all the other bars are packed. I am so sorry that you cannot coexist with the people that attend the local establishments in your area...but that is your fucking problem and there is no need to pass a state wide regulation that fucks over areas that DO NOT have the same problem as you!

They have TRIED to charge me with stuff...like street racing (never done it), assault and battery (ALWAYS stay sober in a bar fight), and now a dispatcher that I "hit" in an accident is threatening me beyond belief for who knows what...her car only got $534 damage while I had $3,600 damage...they won't let me pay my "failure to yield" ticket without going to court first.

Yeah they better change the laws regarding people with drinks outside the bars...or build a damn patio or something otherwise I foresee many problems in the future. I turn around for a quick pool shot and already have at least one stranger try to tap my beer and then I got nothing but foam everywhere...no way I leave my beer alone for 3 min! Now ladies this brings up a really serious point...well this is only for the ladies that smoke. If you step out for a smoke TAKE YOUR DRINK or have a very good friend watch it. People try to slip shit when you are there and we can't have the situation become worse by people stepping out for a smoke only to come back to a spiked drink. Whatever you are drinking from should be in your hands as much as possible but ALWAYS in the sight of you or your good friends. Yes...you can take your drink into the bathroom.