torn asunder

let's try to get back on topic a bit regarding who we'd vote for... the "national health care" issue is interesting, but if we want to get into it, a new topic should be started!!

take a look here for all candidates... go here for my personal choice - nader!!

this thread is perfect... for me to poop on!!

doesn't count!! not from a post on dgn!!

the larch! the redwood! the mighty sequoia!!

i am beautiful because it's *opposite* day!!!

to my family, i've tried - i've failed i can't try anymore... goodbye

nope - not upset at all - i'm really enjoying this conversation! if, however, others feel that we've gone too far afield from the original topic (i personally don't feel so) i will gladly refrain from pursuing this further... just say the word, gang!

but the problem here is, you're relating/trying to define worship as it relates to your own belief system - what do you think worship means to someone of the buddhist faith? hindu? druidic? i can't rationalize your argument that worship "generally seems rooted in Judeo Christianity" (i do get this part, however..."or is seemingly founded in the following after of some diety"). telling me to look it up in hebrew or aramaic covers x-tianity-based faiths, but what of the others? must i look up the origins of "worship" in each culture, and must i then know which historically accurate definition of "worship" to use, depending on which root i'm taking the definition from? nobody does that - it isn't practical. this is why we have dictionaries; to give a general definition/explanation of use in popular culture. sure, you can define it any way you want, but that doesn't mean you're right, as compared to the general populous. (yes, it's right for you - but you couldn't win a debate with someone, if all you used were your own definitions/opinions. you must argue your point within commonly understood "groundrules", if you will.) as an aside, i was raised a x-tian, and have researched enough for my tastes - throwing the bible/biblical teachings at people all the time make you seem a bit one-track-mind-ish. do you have any other sources/references from which you draw information? if not, please don't bother asking me to research anything biblical in the future, until you're prepared to offer up any other source. (not trying to offend you, just making a point) but i may be the first one to convince you!! pain is exactly what we're talking about - self-preservation is where our instictual/primal fear comes from, entirely. when pain happens in the body, fear is what says, "run away! this is hurting me, and i might die! make it stop!" eventually, we learned to associate that pain with the objects that caused it. "here comes a saber-tooth tiger! it clawed me when it killed my friend - that hurt! avoid the tiger!" how is that possibly surface-y and/or not related? first, i would love for you to take the time to really explain "unintentional worship" to me. you keep using the term, but i haven't seen a decent explanation of it yet. i want to understand where you're coming from... 2nd, i don't think fear is necessary to learn as an adult. sure, it always starts that way when we're young and we don't understand things, because it's our primitive heritage, but the problem stems from people never growing past that point. they don't "grow up", so to speak. if i do something, a few things can happen - 1) things can go the way i want, in which case, i'll most likely repeat the action 2) they can go in a way i don't like, and i can be hurt by it, (emotionally or physically) and fear having the same feelings, or 3) it can go in a way i don't like, but i can accept that the result is just a result, and if i don't like it, i can choose to try a different method (or take different steps) towards achieving the same goal, sans fear. fear doesn't have to be a controlling factor - i think we all have the capability to shed our fear of fear (HA!) and live the life we want, if we can simply recognize fear for what it is, and move past it.

you will believe what your life experiences have shown you - if i'm the first person you've been exposed to, who has my point of view, i wouldn't expect you to believe it - that doesn't mean, however, that it's not true... i was afraid of the pain associated with getting my forearms pierced - i wasn't controlled by that fear - i overcame it by making a conscious decision to do so. sure i can be influenced by something like fear, just as i'm influenced by things centered in pleasure. these don't control me, because i can choose to do as i wish, regardless of the feelings i have. i don't understand the "forms of unintentional worship" comment; could you clarify that? again, i'm confused by your description/definition of 'worship"... i looked it up online, and here's what i found. not to be a smart-ass, (please don't take offense) but i thought of a quote from the princess bride that, to my mind, fits here, when you say "worship" - inego - "you keep using that word - i do not think it means what you think it means!"

maybe that's the part that bothers me - i'm not controlled, therefore i've no need to worship. i do (or try to) act in harmony with belief system i have, but in no way am i beneath it, less than it, or in an inferior position to it. i am one with it, (or try to be, as i said) and as such, i feel that "worship" has no place in my life. in fact, i feel that i manifest (through the universal energy i've talked about in the past) whatever i believe more than 50% of the time. whatever is in my life is my doing, whether i deem it good or bad, and i accept responsibility for it. i don't lay blame for the bad, or lavish priase for the good, on an external entity. of course, again, it's possible i'm defining "control" and "worship" in ways different than others might.

unless i'm misunderstanding this, i completely and whole-heartedly disagree with this statement...

i suppose the most likely thing going on here is that we're each defining fear differently, which would account for our disparate views on the matter. to me, fear is "crippling/debilitating/irrational" and prevents one from acting rationally. anything less is a feeling of caution/wariness. not to put words in your mouth, (please correct me if i'm wrong) but it seems to me that you're attempting to boil things down to "love/fear/indifference", maybe without the indifference added - you know, caution is based in fear, wariness pessimism, etc - all fear-based... i tend to think of things in more gradient ways - levels of emotion, rather than "on/off", and to me, fear is reserved for the most extreme end of that emotional direction. since i don't really ever hit that extreme, i feel that i don't really experience fear anymore. caution/wariness/etc, yes, but not fear. does that make more sense?

i wouldn't say out of my depth, maybe just that i don't have enough first-hand experience. i wasn't trying to imply that one must center their lives only on themselves, rather that to truly be able to make anyone else happy, one has to be able to love themselves first and foremost, since acting from a center of love is the key to showing true love to others, (as opposed to paying lip-service)which will manifest in ways that make others happy, and also make you happy as well. sure, i can see why my example might be poor - you make a good point. maybe i could make my point better by stating that, since i've gone through those experiences, i no longer fear death coming from that, nor death in general, since it will inevitably, and perhaps even unexpectedly, happen. i've also gone through times where i honestly didn't care if i lived or died, and behaved in a manner that put me in prime situations for death to happen - it didn't happen, which tells me myriad things, but at no point was i afraid of it. wheni was younger, yes i did fear it, so i know that my feelings have changed in that respect. i do think one can apply logic and personal introspection/meditation/prayer/what-have-you to address and overcome fears. primal fear is based on things that will hurt/kill us, because instictually, we as a species, want to live. in our current society, this doesn't necessarily apply anymore. other fears (non-primal, if you will) are centered in society and upbringing, and i also believe that one can overcome these through the aforementioned "meditation". i whole-heartedly believe that fear does not need to be a part of anyone's life, in modern times. i think that fear stems from unresolved issues within the individual. i know i still have issues myself, but i also know that fearing them (allowing my emotional center to over-ride my ability to control myself) is in no way productive, and will eventually hamper my efforts at living a full, happy life. now, because i've experienced fear before, i do know i don't want to experience it, so yes, i will do what i can to avoid situations that expose me to certain things, until such time as i'm ready to face them. i don't feel that that, in itself, is acting out of fear, i think that it's thinking things through, and acting in my best interests. not sure if any of this makes sense to anyone - just thought i'd throw it out there. thanks, mark, for the post, it got me to (re) thinking things, and i appreciate anything that can help me do that. life should be constantly re-examined, or else we'll never grow...

having been in car accidents where you have a couple seconds to act, to do your best to avoid it, then realize you can't and are most likely going to die, i think fear is over-rated. in these cases, my last thoughts had nothing to do with "i'm scared", they were "well, that's that". as far as "fear as an instinct" goes, sure, it's primal, but you don't have to live at that base level unless you choose to, by not learning to face your fears. fear is letting something else control you, and i don't like that idea, so whenever i realize something bothers me to that extent, i face it & try to determine what it is that triggers that response in me. once i understand it, it no longer has a hold on me, and i can function as i should... but maybe that's just me...!?

meant nothing to whom? if you're (generic you) living your life to be remembered, or for it to mean something to someone else, you're not living your life for you, and at that point, you're not really much good to anyone else, either... as for me? whatever comes along is what's meant to happen, and i'll have to explore that particular situation when it arrives, until then - why fear anything? (having respect for danger isn't the same thing as fear, to me, either)

jet black, or maybe bright red... do you like poetry/prose?

it varies between these...

they do about me, but they're usually back-handed compliments, and only appear to be nice when taken out of context...

hypothetical high-5.............. *ponders* NIIIIIIIICE! not this week, but hopefully soon!

as was predicted i have written another tell me what you think?