torn asunder

exactly...

good lord, people - any more obvious & i'll have to move this to the sexuality forum!

i'm feeling like i'm going to be having some trouble with this isolation - i'm either going to go crazy from not seeing anyone, or get fat and broke from going out to eat all the time in order to talk with anyone, and really, does "what would you like?" and "how is everything?" qualify as having a conversation? ugh.

rev., phee, please take this to PMs, as it's become a personal debate between the two of you.

ditto...

hey, gaf, did you read the whole wiki article on loop quantum gravity? 1st thing that struck me was #3... you're trying to use this theory for a big bang based on a mathematical singularity, when it's stated that this theory replaces the "big bang" with a "big bounce", therefore it's not really valid for your argument. i'm going to finish reading it when i get back, i have to head out for a bit. thanks for letting me know about this, it's really interesting!

take it easy man, we're just having a conversation. i'm sure at least some people see what you're saying. as for me, i never said "everyone missed it", i said "a lot of people". don't take things so personally...

i'll do that, because right now, it doesn't make any sense to me. sounds interesting though.

well, i guess saying "established" was a poor choice of words!? i figured that you'd already stated our universe sprang from this singularity... and the physics, special physics and relativity to which you refer, only apply in this universe because we know no other experience, and can't say whether it would apply inside a singularity, a different universe, or especially outside of this universe (external to the singularity, which is where you claim "god" was). if we look at your wiki quote, (which i agree, is not the best, but let's work with it)... we see that the more dense things get, the more general relativity breaks down, and we are forced to use quantum mechanics. now, if we extrapolate from there, and take into account that a singularity contains *all* of the known and unknown material in this universe, contained within a mathematically one-dimensional point (which is for all practical purposes infinitely more dense than the densest black hole) i don't see how anyone can state that even quantum physics could still be applicable. i don't see any possible logical way to positively say that's true. am i making a bit more sense? i can try to explain further, but i'm not sure how much better i'll be able to do so.

einsamkeit.

thinking that, since i don't have anything else to do, i should probably start working out agian. think i'll do that tonight.

actually, banning alcohol would not be the next step in your scenario. you want the ban on smoking to be revoked, so what that implies is that, since the drunk driving laws aren't working, let's revoke them. does that make any sense? i don't think so. and personally, i don't care what's banned. if one thing is banned, people will find another. i think regulation for the safety of the general public is fine. they haven't banned smoking, just regulated where it can be done, for the health & safety of the general population. that's my opinion.

i was almost embarrassed for them today - and i don't even follow football!

related to the above - we've already established that normal and quantum physics wouldn't apply to anything contained within a singularity; it doesn't even apply in a black hole, and *it* has mass & size. therefore, "there is always a cause" isn't necessarily true. as for your previous post.. that, to me, comes across as someone trying to use semantics to create an argument/debate. the common meaning of "god" is "deity" for most all laymen (laymen = common people) not some newly created definition. if , why don't we just call it a "schnickle-gruber" or something - at least that way, there is no preconceived notion about a word that's being used in an unconventional way. the fact that they used the word "god" is inflammatory at best.

what you seem to be confusing is this - alcohol does not harm the staff. people who drink do, in your scenario, and only if they've had too much and are belligerent/angry/violent. now, if i were to, say, burn 5-10 cigarettes for every person who came into the bar, but none of them directly or actively smoked, the smoke would still harm others. you're debating two different things. also, you do have the right to not be killed by a drunk driver, that's why there are *laws* against it, just like this law.

split some firewood, and head out to look for a few things i need...

and now that i think of it, why are we assuming there was only one singularity? perhaps there were "billions" of them, cruising around whatever passed for their universe, and by chanceover the course of eons, one singularity just happened to "bump into" another, thus creating a "big bang". i mean, there are so many scenarios that preclude the "external god" theory, to my mind, that i just can't buy it.

the more i think about this, the more i think people are missing the point. (i know i did originally) this law is meant to protect the waitstaff/bartenders who are trying to earn a living. smoking creats a hostile, unhealthy work environment. many, many workplaces are smoke-free, i don't see anyone bitching about not being able to smoke at work!? these service workers are forced to breathe in that smoke, or quit/lose their job, there are no other options for them. are the smokerrs saying that their right to smoke is greater than their right to earn a living in a healthy work environment?

actually, from what i can tell, gaf's not saying singularity = god, he's saying that god existed outside of the singularity, and was the cause of the fluctuation that made the big bang happen. thing that i have a problem with is that, we know black holes warp time & space & even dimensionality. we know (or know as best we can) that our classical physics, including quantum, break down in a black hole. now, imagine every black hole in the universe, and every sun, every planet, asteroid, rock, dust particle, and even all of the theoretical dark matter, contained within a space so small that our science defines is as a one-dimensional mathematical point... there is no possible way we can say that that "point" has no effect on anything else, nor can we say whether or not it allows for anything external to itself. it's possible that nothing could exist outside of the singularity, so to say "god" (which, btw i do not define as the x-tian deity, but as the universal 'subconscious', the energy that connects us all and from which we all come) must have acted on the singularity from the outside is pure conjecture and guesswork on the part of the author. there is no way it can be proven.

disagree. we don't even understand all of the physics in our universe, there's no possible way we can understand the physics contained within a singularity, and therefore, even my "uncertainty" argument is invalid. saying something else HAD to be there is not necessarily true.

this is it, exactly. the big problem is, there's no accountability.

that was one of my thoughts. i'm meeting with a recruiter on monday, i hope (going to at least setup an appointment). once i get my resume together, i'll send you a pm, if you don't mind...

i can explain the "first cause" with one term... inherent variation. nothing is ever fully stable, and all it would take is one fluctuation to destabilize a singularity. and really, think about it - that singularity could have existed for (what we call) billions of years. all it would take is *one* fluctuation, one "uncertainty" for it to start a chain reaction "big bang". "god" has nothing to do with it, in my opinion.

umm.. i just now realized that unless i go out to a bar, i'm not going to have any contact with anyone on a daily basis anymore, unless/until i find a job. i'm feeling very isolated & alone.