Where we come from...

[Steven]

I REALLY like where you're going with this. Legitimizing all the world's religions in one fell swoop.

Well, most of them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

but the world's religions oppose one another in foundational aspects.

therefore you'll have to cut and maim and blend to come up wiht the enlightenment.

[Steven]

Then as an agnostic, am I denying myself salvation that everyone spiritual is entitled to? Or is my method just as valid?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

to me, your asking the wrong question to a scenario that does not really exist.

"Spirituality" does not entitle one to salvation (this coming from my world of course).

Salvation is rooted in the search for, and therefore acknowledgement of a mediator between man and the creator. It is quite literally, a cry for help.

you have to ask.

[Steven]

This is, perhaps, better suited to another thread.

But I would think having this line of thought would make someone like you very, very sad. Believing that so many of us, your friends, won't be there with you in the afterlife because we find our faith elsewhere.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But I dont know that Camille.

I only know that right now, I - Steven, have chosen to accept an exclusive man to god relationship. I beleive that I'm on to something. I beleive that it is real.

I do NOT beleive however:

A) That I have the authority to determine or decide who is and is not under God's protective hand. even....including me.

B) That I am God.

C) That God is not right now working in your own lives, seeking , searching, trying to connect.....I dont beleive he has turned his back on you because you do not see him as I do.

D) That I should write you off in any way.

I always see things in a hopeful light my friend.

There will be people in Heaven that will shock me because they got there and my feeble mind could not see the open door. And there will be people I'll be searching for, who did not make it....perhaps for reasons I dont understand.

[Fierce Critter]

But I dont know that Camille.

I only know that right now, I  - Steven, have chosen to accept an exclusive man to god relationship.  I beleive that I'm on to something.  I beleive that it is real.

I do NOT beleive however:

A)  That I have the authority to determine or decide who is and is not under God's protective hand.  even....including me.

B)  That I am God.

C)  That God is not right now working in your  own lives, seeking , searching, trying to connect.....I dont beleive he has turned his back on you because you do not see him as I do. 

D)  That I should write you off in any way.

I always see things in a hopeful light my friend.

There will be people in Heaven that will shock me because they got there and my feeble mind could not see the open door.  And there will be people I'll be searching for, who did not make it....perhaps for reasons I dont understand.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Understood. =)

[The_Dark]

I think of it this way...

You don't have to believe in God

God beleives in You

[Shade Everdark]

yet nobody has done the same, nowhere near the same, nowhere near the impact has been made by anyone else, nor is anyone as feircly defended or opposed or persecuted or ....???  .  He's really a one-off.

and remember too that this was an uneducated man with no resources, money, or even a place to call home.

And he died in his early 30's.  And he only did his teaching gig for a few years.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have to disagree with you here, Steven.

Two words: Siddhartha Gautama.

I find it very arrogant to claim that no one, anywhere, ever, has had the same kind of impact on the world that Jesus had. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, of course, but just because Jesus was a great man (and/or God, if one sees fit to believe), does not mean others did not have a similar impact.

[BrassFusion]

But I dont know that Camille.

I only know that right now, I  - Steven, have chosen to accept an exclusive man to god relationship.  I beleive that I'm on to something.  I beleive that it is real.

I do NOT beleive however:

A)  That I have the authority to determine or decide who is and is not under God's protective hand.  even....including me.

B)  That I am God.

C)  That God is not right now working in your  own lives, seeking , searching, trying to connect.....I dont beleive he has turned his back on you because you do not see him as I do. 

D)  That I should write you off in any way.

I always see things in a hopeful light my friend.

There will be people in Heaven that will shock me because they got there and my feeble mind could not see the open door.  And there will be people I'll be searching for, who did not make it....perhaps for reasons I dont understand.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's a lot more pragmatic a stance than I've heard a lot of other christians take. Bravo.

When I asked earlier if I was going to hell because I refuse to commit to spirituality, I meant it more from the perspective that every spiritual person is of equal value in the eyes of a Creator.

My opinion, of course, is that the Creator(s?), if it exists, is not knowable. A benevolent god would realize this and recognize even "misguided" religions. To the Jews, Jesus was just another mortal prophet, no?

[Steven]

I have to disagree with you here, Steven.

Two words:  Siddhartha Gautama.

I find it very arrogant to claim that no one, anywhere, ever, has had the same kind of impact on the world that Jesus had.  Everyone's entitled to their opinion, of course, but just because Jesus was a great man (and/or God, if one sees fit to believe), does not mean others did not have a similar impact.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Didint mean to sound arrogant - or cocky - or whatever.

My point of view is this:

If we were to measure GLOBAL impact, the basic's of Christianity and the name Jesus are measurably better known than any other religeous figure. My statements regarding his influence went along those lines. For example, I've never heard of Siddhartha Gautama, and I live in a place where multiple forms of media are readily available.

Sort of like the Bible.

Its hated - the msot persecuted book in History, and also the all time best seller.

Thats measurable impact.

Dont get upset. I was in no way saying that no others are Christ-like. I know there are others out there, some of them have mentored me.

I'm simply saying that his "record" if you will, especialy in light of his short term ministry - stands alone.

Fair enough?

[Steven]

That's a lot more pragmatic a stance than I've heard a lot of other christians take. Bravo.

When I asked earlier if I was going to hell because I refuse to commit to spirituality, I meant it more from the perspective that every spiritual person is of equal value in the eyes of a Creator.

My opinion, of course, is that the Creator(s?), if it exists, is not knowable. A benevolent god would realize this and recognize even "misguided" religions. To the Jews, Jesus was just another mortal prophet, no?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

To the Jews, he split them down the middle.

some viewed him as a mortal, fallible man, aprophet yes, but in no way divinity.

Others, saw him for what he claimed to be: the "I AM" , and the only on eon earth with teh authority to forgive sins (in their cultrue only YHWH could forgive sins). the accusations of blasphemy leveled against him centered on this.

As for the other Christians, i have to be careful here, because at times I know I sound like I'm putting them down. That's not my true intention. My intention is to move beyond the often trite understandings of both those who claim to know God and those who watch those who claim to know God. To move beyond religion and into instinct founded on an investment into a relationship.

[torn asunder]

The Universe and God are separate and the same..

i totally disagree, but i suppose we'll have to just leave it at that...

[torn asunder]

unfortunately I dont really beleive this. 

I actually do beleive there is only one way.

so, what's to say your way is "the one"? you? where does that leave everyone else who believes the same, but about their own way? the same place you are, according to them...

does that make any sense? not to me, in the least...

[torn asunder]

What we are when we get there is determined by the path we took on the way.

yes, but we are not all meant to be the same when we get there, and whatever you are at that point is exactly what you needed to be, in a sense... it won't be wrong or right, it will just *be*...

[torn asunder]

yet nobody has done the same, nowhere near the same, nowhere near the impact has been made by anyone else, nor is anyone as feircly defended or opposed or persecuted or ....???  .  He's really a one-off.

and remember too that this was an uneducated man with no resources, money, or even a place to call home.

And he died in his early 30's.  And he only did his teaching gig for a few years.

who was buddha? mohammed? krishna? any of several other "prophets" humanity has seen in its existence? to the people who follow those faiths, those are their "jesus", so how can you say there's only been one? i still don't get it...

[BrassFusion]

who was buddha? mohammed? krishna? any of several other "prophets" humanity has seen in its existence? to the people who follow those faiths, those are their "jesus", so how can you say there's only been one? i still don't get it...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree with you. As for Steven saying that Jesus has had the largest global impact, it's his teaching and his followers. It could be just random that Christianity took off as the most popular religion in the world. Popularity doesn't necessarily make it more or less valid.

[Steven]

who was buddha? mohammed? krishna? any of several other "prophets" humanity has seen in its existence? to the people who follow those faiths, those are their "jesus", so how can you say there's only been one? i still don't get it...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

wow have I started an issue with this one.

I knew these other prophets names were going to come up.....

let me try to be more basic - by way of comarison I mean;

Best Known

Most Read

Most identified with

Most persecuted

Most popular

Globally

etc etc etc............... perhaps one example would be that of our American Society.

The majority of Society today - although they dont really neccessarly cling to the principles, call themselves "Christians".

[Steven]

I agree with you. As for Steven saying that Jesus has had the largest global impact, it's his teaching and his followers. It could be just random that Christianity took off as the most popular religion in the world. Popularity doesn't necessarily make it more or less valid.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

good point.

of course I disagree.

we can measure the success of say - a computer manufacturer by the number of units sold worldwide in comparison to other popular manufacturers.

If one constantly takes the lead - we may want to study that model - see why it appeals en masse. WHy are so may people attracted to Brand X? What does Brand X offer in comparison nto so many other brands that has more people seeking it out?

When it comes to religion - and remember your talking to a beleiver who therefore interprets certain things being more than just chance - I don't think the popularity of Christianity or the Bible for that matter over other religious works/teachings is a random thing. I think that Truth Divides, and yet at teh same time - can sustain itself. And Christianity leaves you very little middle ground - yet for some strange reason it still seems to be at the forefront, and its either bitterly resented or else embraced.

To add to it, and I've asked this question before about the Bible:

If its all just a bunch of tired fables with little application to the modern era......then why wont it just go away? Why does it remain the most persecuted book in global history and yet the all time best seller world wide? I mean c'mon.......its crap. Most people dont even understand it. Is this too.....just random?

[torn asunder]

When it comes to religion - and remember your talking to a beleiver who therefore interprets certain things being more than just chance - I don't think the popularity of Christianity or the Bible for that matter over other religious works/teachings is a random thing.  I think that Truth Divides, and yet at teh same time - can sustain itself.  And Christianity leaves you very little middle ground - yet for some strange reason it still seems to be at the forefront, and its either bitterly resented or else embraced.

To add to it, and I've asked this question before about the Bible: 

If its all just a bunch of tired fables with little application to the modern era......then why wont it just go away?  Why does it remain the most persecuted book in global history and yet the all time best seller world wide?  I mean c'mon.......its crap.  Most people dont even understand it.  Is this too.....just random?

honestly, i think using the term "popularity" regarding x-tianity is a little misplaced, since it's well documented that many of x-tianity's conversions have been of entire populations threatened with death if they didn't "see the light". the crusades, and the native americans are the first that come to my mind, but i'm sure there are many other examples, which brings me to another point... how anyone can follow the tenants of a religion that would ever condone such behavior is beyond me. (and yes, i realize it's no longer tolerated - it still contains many discriminatory and prejudicial beliefs, and i personally have a big issue with that, because they are supposed to be promoting "peace on earth, goodwill towards [men]". one final thought, from what i understand of x-tianity - i've been told by several x-tians strongly rooted in their faith, that god's love is unconditional, then they turn around and tell me that if i don't repent/ask god for forgiveness, i'm going to hell. to me, that's the definition of conditional! and, before you say that he'll still love me while i'm burning in hell, why wouldn't he just "forgive me" for my own benefit, since i "know not what i do"?

anyway, i'm going way off on a tangent with this... sorry. there are just so manyinconsistencies in so many organized religions, that i just have a hard time understanding how anyone with an open mind can fully follow them. (and then, if they don't follow all of it, how does one reconcile the fact that their going to hell, because they only choose to follow some of the beliefs?)

ok, i'll shut up for a bit again now...

[BrassFusion]

good point.

of course I disagree.

we can measure the success of say - a computer manufacturer by the number of units sold worldwide in comparison to other popular manufacturers.

If one constantly takes the lead - we may want to study that model - see why it appeals en masse.  WHy are so may people attracted to Brand X?  What does Brand X offer in comparison nto so many other brands that has more people seeking it out?

I don't think I need to point out that Jesus didn't manufacuture computers. He made desks.

I'll be here all week!!!!

No, seriously, we can measure those manufacturers on how they sell annually or quarterly. Among active companies, that constantly fluctuates. Major world religions are like companies that went under several hundred to several thousand years ago and are relying on word-of-mouth and people building replica products.

By that logic, Christianity is not "constantly" taking the lead over Islam, Judaism, Hindu, Buddhism, and what have you. It acheived what could have been a passing popularity, but violence and imperialism turned it into the world's religion of choice and opportunity. That gave it inertia and kept it popular.

When it comes to religion - and remember your talking to a beleiver who therefore interprets certain things being more than just chance - I don't think the popularity of Christianity or the Bible for that matter over other religious works/teachings is a random thing.  I think that Truth Divides, and yet at teh same time - can sustain itself.  And Christianity leaves you very little middle ground - yet for some strange reason it still seems to be at the forefront, and its either bitterly resented or else embraced.

It's at the forefront because we live in America. An Iranian would say the same thing about Islam you're saying about Christianity.

And sorry to rock the boat, but I neither resent the Bible nor embrace it.

As for the popularity of the works and teachings in the Bible, if it's so massively appealing and its very truth sustains it, why are there SO many sects out there that completely clash with each other? Also, if you're going to use the bandwagon approach to say that Christianity has attained its popularity because it's rooted in truth, you're not allowed to use every member from every sect to bolster that figure.

To add to it, and I've asked this question before about the Bible: 

If its all just a bunch of tired fables with little application to the modern era......then why wont it just go away?  Why does it remain the most persecuted book in global history and yet the all time best seller world wide?  I mean c'mon.......its crap.  Most people dont even understand it.  Is this too.....just random?

Yes. You will never be able to prove that it's not random, because you don't have a parallel universe in which to perform an experiment.

[Steven]

I understand your point of view.

pretty amazing random-ness however.

Those imperialistic roots - they have a short life span in the grand scheme of things - yes they have had a tremendous impact - but the momentum continues without this approach. May I add that it was wrong and in no way reflects Christ's methods or teachigngs. Xitianity is not all alone by the way, in terms of forcibly abusing and creating converts.

these sects that you refer to have been there from the beginning, as is evidenced by The Apostle Paul's writings to the developing churches. He warned against this division within the body and that in the end it would cause confusion, and it has. I freely admit this. However I must add that very few sects actually beleive a different gospel, save for perhaps Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses. The foundational aspects of Xtianity remain intact between them all, and sadly a bunch of worrthless legalizm has become their defining identities. A waste surely, and a shame for Xtianity in general, but the sects do not take away from the whole foundation that Christ taught, which in reality was very simple.

Also - I used an American example at some point - but my view is still roooted worldwide.

And finnally....all of this comaprison stuff I suggested was/is to point to the accomplishments of one uneducated man who preached for an extremely short period of time. I do find it amazing that here we are today, comparing this and that and measuring impact and such, all the end result of one Jewish misfit's 3 year against the grain approach to truth.

[Steven]

honestly, i think using the term "popularity" regarding x-tianity is a little misplaced, since it's well documented that many of x-tianity's conversions have been of entire populations threatened with death if they didn't "see the light". the crusades, and the native americans are the first that come to my mind, but i'm sure there are many other examples, which brings me to another point... how anyone can follow the tenants of a religion that would ever condone such behavior is beyond me. (and yes, i realize it's no longer tolerated - it still contains many discriminatory and prejudicial beliefs, and i personally have a big issue with that, because they are supposed to be promoting "peace on earth, goodwill towards [men]". one final thought, from what i understand of x-tianity - i've been told by several x-tians strongly rooted in their faith, that god's love is unconditional, then they turn around and tell me that if i don't repent/ask god for forgiveness, i'm going to hell. to me, that's the definition of conditional! and, before you say that he'll still love me while i'm burning in hell, why wouldn't he just "forgive me" for my own benefit, since i "know not what i do"?

anyway, i'm going way off on a tangent with this... sorry. there are just so manyinconsistencies in so many organized religions, that i just have a hard time understanding how anyone with an open mind can fully follow them. (and then, if they don't follow all of it, how does one reconcile the fact that their going to hell, because they only choose to follow some of the beliefs?)

ok, i'll shut up for a bit again now... 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ill get back to you on this later tonight.....I'm at work.

Good points though.

[BrassFusion]

I don't see how imperialism has a short life span. It's been going on for... well... ever?

Also, may I ask why you call it Xtianity?

[Gauge]

wow have I started an issue with this one.

I knew these other prophets names were going to come up.....

let me try to be more basic - by way of comarison I mean;

Best Known

Most Read

Most identified with

Most persecuted

Most popular

Globally

etc etc etc............... perhaps one example would be that of our American Society.

The majority of Society today - although they dont really neccessarly cling to the principles, call themselves "Christians".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

best known. . .most read. . .popular?!?! i bet those in places like india would have a much different thought on that. maybe christianity has that sort of following here but i think you may be mistaken to say that its global.

[torn asunder]

I don't see how imperialism has a short life span. It's been going on for... well... ever?

Also, may I ask why you call it Xtianity?

i think steven picked up on my post, as that's the way i spell it...

[BrassFusion]

I've known people to spell Christian as "Xian," but I've seen it more from people who disrespect it.

And Christianity (Xianity?) is pretty global. The sun never sets on the Catholic empire, donchaknow.

[Steven]

I don't see how imperialism has a short life span. It's been going on for... well... ever?

Also, may I ask why you call it Xtianity?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

because I'm lazy, and my keyboard has letters that stick.