Politics and Ideas

[The_Dark]

Do you think Good Ideas have a political bent... Like.. Only Democrats, Liberals, Republicans or some other group have good ideas?

Do you vote for Political Partys (Republican, Democrat and such), Political Ideals (Liberals, Conservatives) or who has the best Ideas about "What to do now..."

[The_Dark]

Personally, I dont think Ideas, good or bad, have a particular political affiliation. I vote for whom ever, at least to me, has the best ideas. i don;t even really look at what party they belong to. I look at the way they voted on things... the ideas they presented...

[phee]

I try to avoid labels like that.... I can say that certain parties/groups will more often be like minded to myself... but never absolutely...

I can say something like "Certain Politicians in party X seem to think" or "It seems like Group X's agenda is..." but I try to stay away from saying "All of people in group X are trying to push this plan..." or "The X's are trying to keep us in the dark..."

[phee]

What I will say however is the more specific the better understood you may sound...

For example If I say: "The bush administration is trying to impliment a plan on making CGSM's (Christs Gay Seeking Missiles) " That is better then saying that all people who voted for Bush are in support of CGSM's

Or if I say: "The liberals are trying to redirect all welfare to jobless hippy scum" that pales in comparison to me saying "There is this one group funded by the democrats in Nebraska, that are trying to redirect all welfare to long haired hippy scum" the latter doesn't include "All liberals" or "All Democrats"

[Msterbeau]

I'll admit... I might cringe a bit if I know the person's political affiliation before I hear the idea.. and it's not the side of the fence I tend to agree with. If there's no political agenda attached to the idea, I'm far more likely to weigh it on it's merits. I used to be pretty apolitical... I disliked them all. For lack of a better word, I was awaken 5-6 years ago to how important voting and my beliefs mean to the overall situation in this country. We all matter. I started to figure out what I really believed and apply those beliefs to what canidates and agendas I would support. Somedays I try to be as objective as I can... others, forget it. I see in our current administration such obvious contempt for the average person. Contempt for tolerance, Contempt for differing opinions and mostly contempt for doing what is truly decent that I find it difficult to muster the energy to give them a fair break.

Back on topic... I don't think anyone has a lock on "good ideas" just like artists are not the only crreative people on earth. Those ideas just take on a different form, but it can be no less valuable.

I wish we'd get rid of political parties in this country and vote for people based on their ideas/history/etc. I'd also like to get money out of the electoral process. Each canidate should be allowed X amount of money to run their campaign. Right now it's a popularity contest based on who can afford the most advertising...

[Steven]

No , I dont think good ideas have a political bent.

I'm a registered republican, but in reality that means very little to me, as I am...................just me.

and Kudos to Mark.

What he said, I agree with it.

[Fierce Critter]

It seems rather obvious to me that liberals are more concerned with the welfare of their fellow man, while conservatives are pretty selfish.

And I know that is a SUPER-HUGE-NARROW-MINDED-SIMPLIFICATION. But come on - can you really tell me it isn't generally true?

Not that liberals do it right mind you. Too many people get away with murder on the current welfare system. It's much too easily taken advantage of. Frankly, I'd probably vote for a lot of reforms to it myself.

But I think Liberals are much more interested in some kind of "help the people" system existing while conservatives want people to all of a sudden all be perfect and able to take care of themselves no matter what their life's circumstances.

That would be great if it was realistic, but it's not. A capitalistic society doesn't make it possible.

And my mind is waaaay too muddy to be more erudite on the subject. I definitely am ultra-simplifying, but it's from much observation and experience - I'm not just talking out my ass here.

[Hellion]

I'll admit...  I might cringe a bit if I know the person's political affiliation before I hear the idea.. and it's not the side of the fence I tend to agree with.    If there's no political agenda attached to the idea, I'm far more likely to weigh it on it's merits.  I used to be pretty apolitical... I disliked them all.  For lack of a better word, I was awaken 5-6 years ago to how important voting and my beliefs mean to the overall situation in this country.  We all matter.  I started to figure out what I really believed and apply those beliefs to what canidates and agendas I would support.  Somedays I try to be as objective as I can... others, forget it.  I see in our current administration such obvious contempt for the average person.  Contempt for  tolerance,  Contempt for differing opinions and mostly contempt for doing what is truly decent that I find it difficult to muster the energy to give them a fair break. 

Back on topic...  I don't think anyone has a lock on "good ideas" just like artists are not the only crreative people on earth.  Those ideas just take on a different form, but it can be no less valuable. 

I wish we'd get rid of political parties in this country and vote for people based on their ideas/history/etc.  I'd also like to get money out of the electoral process.  Each canidate should be allowed X amount of money to run their campaign.  Right now it's a popularity contest based on who can afford the most advertising...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

:devil Damn Straight!!Good wording Marc.

[Blackmail]

It seems rather obvious to me that liberals are more concerned with the welfare of their fellow man, while conservatives are pretty selfish.

And I know that is a SUPER-HUGE-NARROW-MINDED-SIMPLIFICATION. But come on - can you really tell me it isn't generally true?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

no it isn't true. Compare how the "average" person did during the Reagan years compared to the liberal Carter years. People, for the most part, were far better off under Reagan.

Tax cuts for the middle class. that's a conservative idea. How is that bad for the fellow man?

If what you said was true, and it's a liberal idea that they love to perpetuate, how do Republicans get elected? Not only have they been getting elected, they've been kicking democrats ass in the house, senate and pretty much everywhere else since in the past decade.

[Msterbeau]

no it isn't true.  Compare how the "average" person did during the Reagan years compared to the liberal Carter years.  People, for the most part, were far better off under Reagan.   

Tax cuts for the middle class.  that's a conservative idea.  How is that bad for the fellow man? 

If what you said was true, and it's a liberal idea that they love to perpetuate, how do Republicans get elected?  Not only have they been getting elected, they've been kicking democrats ass in the house, senate and pretty much everywhere else since in the past decade.

The middle class are pretty well off though.. generally speaking. It's the poor and the underprivliged that they ignore or pay lip service to.

[Hellion]

:devil I stay out of politics,even though I still vote.

[ZhukovCodeslinger]

Having spent way too much time, thought and money on the subject of politics i am pretty much jaded and fed up with it in general.

one interesting anacdote i would like to relate:

On a different message board someone posted a "political compass" test that was supposed to tell where you stood politically. Funny enough, if you happen to believe in both personal liberty and that the government does have the authority (or right depending on how you look at it) to tell people what to do, then the test labels you a Fascist. So then a bunch of people on that board who have had a grand total of one political science class (and probably did not do all that well in it since most of them either failed out of college one or more times before giving up on it all together) decided that I must be a NAZI... Yes a Nazi. Though not a one of them knows anything about the differences between Fascism and Nazism or that I am not a believer in either group. The test for me ended up being an interesting view in to the sociology of group think and mass-hysterical ignorance. Though to this day I belive they were just looking for a reason to hate me becuase they did not understand me and most of them had a thing for Holliwood (either currently or at one time in their lives) and were sad to see that she was taken by someone who was smarter than them.

Moral of the story, dont try and explain "real" politics and the history of important politics to dimwits who think they are saving the world by demanding that everyone else (excluding them) should pay lots of taxes to support various bullshit causes... and that the government should not be allowed to tell you to do/not do anything, and you should not be completely free to do whatever you want...

interresting paradox dont you think... I was thinking the test was set up to make the very smart people appear to be Nazis (but that is my own Hubris speaking)

<sigh> oh well... im not going bald and I have a HUGE PENIS.

I dont know why I find that funny once again... :woot:

[ZhukovCodeslinger]

It seems rather obvious to me that liberals are more concerned with the welfare of their fellow man, while conservatives are pretty selfish.

And I know that is a SUPER-HUGE-NARROW-MINDED-SIMPLIFICATION. But come on - can you really tell me it isn't generally true?

But I think Liberals are much more interested in some kind of "help the people" system existing while conservatives want people to all of a sudden all be perfect and able to take care of themselves no matter what their life's circumstances.

That would be great if it was realistic, but it's not. A capitalistic society doesn't make it possible.

And my mind is waaaay too muddy to be more erudite on the subject. I definitely am ultra-simplifying, but it's from much observation and experience - I'm not just talking out my ass here.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

adding context to those statements may muddy things up a bit... The great society as created by LBJ has ended up doing more to screw up the poor than to help them. Poor----> Welfare----> dependence on artificial support----> breakdown of family unit and lowering of general health----> worse social and physical lives----> very very bad/antisocial behaviors----> bad media coverage----> cut off of welfare-----> oh shit (where they are now)

Also, I just wanted to add that liberal/vs. conservative changes from time to time. The first republican president was elected on the Idea that SLAVERY was bad and that he would do somthing to prevent it. The Democrats then decided to seceed from the country and started their own... Luckily, Abraham lincoln was able to gather support for the fledgeling Republican political party and then fight and win the war. he himself was not all that great a guy and would gladly have allowed the south to keep slavery if they would have immediatly come back into the Union. He had liberal (anti slavery) beliefs, yet at the same time, was perfectly willing to fight a war that would kill 500,000+ americans (2x WW2, 10x vietnam, and 185x as many that have died in the war on terror) to force his will on others.. he was a liberal and a facist...

Other great presidents who have pushed social programs through: FDR and the New Deal... well, he stole most of it from programs that Hitler and the NAZIs had come up with to fight against the great depression in Germany... his programs were sort of tainted and he was also against many Union rights. he was a liberal and a Fascist.

LBJ with the Great society which created welfare. Sure, he cared about people, but he was willing to micromanage an ongoing conflict half way around the world to the detriment of our troops as well as order the massive bombing of a country that was not much more than rice paddies after having a temper tantrum because they would not do what he said. He was both liberal and a Fascist...

[Msterbeau]

Ah... bullshit causes. What pisses me off more then anything is not "bullshit causes" but WASTE AND PORK. Same thing I guess. The silly projects that legislators devise to demonstrate their usefullness to their constituents. The free vacations under the banner of "fact finding". The overcharging and lack of oversite on expenditures. And finally... the ridiculous studies funded by our dollars. Fuck all that shit. I suspect doing away with this stuff would allow us to fund the stuff that liberals would love while still being more then reasonable fiscally, which conservatives demand.

[Msterbeau]

I dont know why I find that funny once again...  :woot:

Because you're an overeducated dork. :laughing

[BrassFusion]

No , I dont think good ideas have a political bent.

I'm a registered republican, but in reality that means very little to me, as I am...................just me.

and Kudos to Mark.

What he said, I agree with it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm surprised to hear that you're a registered republican at the moment. That is all.

Ah...  bullshit causes.  What pisses me off more then anything is not "bullshit causes" but WASTE AND PORK.  Same thing I guess.  The silly projects that legislators devise to demonstrate their usefullness to their constituents.  The free vacations under the banner of "fact finding".  The overcharging and lack of oversite on expenditures.  And finally...  the ridiculous studies funded by our dollars.  Fuck all that shit.  I suspect doing away with this stuff would allow us to fund the stuff that liberals would love while still being more then reasonable fiscally, which conservatives demand.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Amen, bruthuh. Ennui prevents me from adding anything to this conversation at the moment.

[Steven]

I'm surprised to hear that you're a registered republican at the moment. That is all.

Amen, bruthuh. Ennui prevents me from adding anything to this conversation at the moment.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

well.....so are they (my so called republican bretheran).

I'd much rather be registered as a non spanish speaking mexican american taxpayer US Army veteran/ former K9 Bomb Dog handler / spirtually inclined handsome bastard.

but it takes up too much space on the form.

so, republican it is. (dont hate)

[BrassFusion]

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATEE!!!!!!

(saaaarcaaaaaaaaaaaassssm!!)

[Blackmail]

adding context to those statements may muddy things up a bit...  The great society as created by LBJ has ended up doing more to screw up the poor than to help them.  Poor----> Welfare----> dependence on artificial support----> breakdown of family unit and lowering of general health----> worse social and physical lives----> very very bad/antisocial behaviors----> bad media coverage----> cut off of welfare-----> oh shit (where they are now)

Also, I just wanted to add that liberal/vs. conservative changes from time to time.  The first republican president was elected on the Idea that SLAVERY was bad and that he would do somthing to prevent it.  The Democrats then decided to seceed from the country and started their own...  Luckily, Abraham lincoln was able to gather support for the fledgeling Republican political party and then fight and win the war.  he himself was not all that great a guy and would gladly have allowed the south to keep slavery if they would have immediatly come back into the Union.  He had liberal (anti slavery) beliefs, yet at the same time, was perfectly willing to fight a war that would kill 500,000+ americans (2x WW2, 10x vietnam, and 185x as many that have died in the war on terror) to force his will on others.. he was a liberal and a facist...

Other great presidents who have pushed social programs through:  FDR and the New Deal... well, he stole most of it from programs that Hitler and the NAZIs had come up with to fight against the great depression in Germany... his programs were sort of tainted and he was also against many Union rights.  he was a liberal and a Fascist.

LBJ with the Great society which created welfare.  Sure, he cared about people, but he was willing to micromanage an ongoing conflict half way around the world to the detriment of our troops as well as order the massive bombing of a country that was not much more than rice paddies after having a temper tantrum because they would not do what he said.  He was both liberal and a Fascist...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

this post should be required reading.

I'll also add two things:

Once MLK opposed the war publicly, LBJ called him a "N" word.

The President Closest to GW Bush was John F Kennedy, tax breaks for the rich and Vietnam.

[Blackmail]

The middle class are pretty well off though.. generally speaking.  It's the poor and the underprivliged that they ignore or pay lip service to.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You have a point

However I think maintaining a strong middle class is the key to capitalism, the key to American democracy and tax-and-spend ala Carter hurt the middle class.

I do concede that Reagan probably went too far in the other direction when he cut funding for mental hospitals and whatnot, but the overall job he did caused a huge spike in economic growth.

[BrassFusion]

You have a point

However I think maintaining a strong middle class is the key to capitalism, the key to American democracy and tax-and-spend ala Carter hurt the middle class.

I do concede that Reagan probably went too far in the other direction when he cut funding for mental hospitals and whatnot, but the overall job he did caused a huge spike in economic growth.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's all well and good, but Reagan isn't in office anymore. Who cares about R vs D? Why is our middle class limping along NOW?

[phee]

That's all well and good, but Reagan isn't in office anymore. Who cares about R vs D? Why is our middle class limping along NOW?

It is limping but it is also actually getting much better in the last 2 years as well

[BrassFusion]

It is limping but it is also actually getting much better in the last 2 years as well

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How's that?

Edit: Oh, wait, we're probably not talking strictly local. Is it just that Michigan has been an economic shithole the whole time while all the other states are slowly repairing from the same level?

[Blackmail]

How's that?

Edit: Oh, wait, we're probably not talking strictly local. Is it just that Michigan has been an economic shithole the whole time while all the other states are slowly repairing from the same level?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Michigan's economy sucks, the rest of the Country is doing quite well. Inflation is slightly high, but unemployment is low, the dollar is relatively strong, consumer confidence is decent. The "bad economy" was about 3 or 4 years ago and the slight recession started before Bush took office.

[phee]

Yup.... everywhere but here.... *sigh*