Human cloning

[BrassFusion]

Someone make a clone of me and send it to my workplace by 5. I have a cold.

Then discuss the merits, hurdles, and issues of human cloning.

[phee]

I would like to clone myself to farm my clones organs, so that it can become mutated and seek revenge on me later in my life... but revenge without organs...

[BrassFusion]

I would like to clone myself to farm my clones organs, so that it can become mutated and seek revenge on me later in my life... but revenge without organs...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Revenge without organs is so much more difficult than revenge with organs, I've found.

[kellygrrrrrl]

I think it is wrong.

It's like playing GOD

To me it questions the spirit or the soul.

Within each of us is a little voice...a person, a character, a ghost, a soul... whatever you want to call it.

Will the clone lack this "Soul" ?

Will it have YOUR soul?

Who's soul will it have if yours is already in existance and since it is genetically identical? Will it develope it's own according to GODs will? Did GOD plan for this Person?

I can just imagine. A giant warehouse of people i n giant test tubes...being born and grown in giant test tubes....

Getting ripe for organ pickings.

This does not appeal to me AT ALL.

When I am 60 years old and looking at a clone of myself when I was 18, the only thing I'll want to do is a brain transplant....

it seems gruesome though....a giant warehoue of test ube people....

They are alive, in water, naked, looking, not being taught anything...just watching and not being able to develope a thought because they've never had to...

It sounds sad and disturbing and very Sci-Fi.....

[phee]

If you don't have a soul and you clone yourself.... is that wrong?

[Blackmail]

If you don't have a soul and you clone yourself.... is that wrong?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

just because you're white and can't dance (I've witnessed it firsthand) doesn't mean you don't have soul.

[phee]

just because you're white and can't dance (I've witnessed it firsthand) doesn't mean you don't have soul.

But that is what I was told!

[kellygrrrrrl]

I ate your soul Phee.....It was delicious too!

And I'm going to take yours away Blackmail....

[phee]

I guess until I see evidence of a soul, I don't have a problem with cloning

[kellygrrrrrl]

You don't believe in having a soul Phee?

Maybe the word "Soul" is being used out of context here?

[phee]

Not that I don't believe.... (See posts on agnosticism) but that I see no evidence of such

[torn asunder]

well, if god is in charge of everything, and man clones himself, then it must be god's design that he do so, it would seem...

my opinion - all bodies are just vessels, vehicles to get around on this planet in this life. soul/spirit/animation of the body comes from "god" (or what-have-you, i prefer to call it something along the lines of "source") so even if you clone a person, the "soul" that inhabits that particular vessel will be independant and unique. it may have energy/psychic ties to it's dna source (similar to "the twin effect") but i still don't believe there would be anything inherently wrong with the particular cloned individual.

now, i may take an entirely different view on the "morality" of cloning, based on the intent of the people doing it, but i'm not sure... if we can comprehend it, and we can do it, who's to say it's not just another form of evolution, albiet self-created and promoted!?

:erm :whistling :innocent

[kellygrrrrrl]

=) You spelled that out well Torn...

I like that.

[Moonlight_Phantasy]

Cloning should never happen. That person has the same fingerprints as you and everything. If they do something wrong, you get the blame. Besides, growing up a clone would be harsh because most people wouldnt look at you as a human being.

[phee]

Cloning should never happen.  That person has the same fingerprints as you and everything.  If they do something wrong, you get the blame.  Besides, growing up a clone would be harsh because most people wouldnt look at you as a human being.

Based on that description... I guess I am a clone

[Blackmail]

I think the famous scientist Weird Al Yankovic said it best:

Isn't it strange

Feels like I'm lookin' in the mirror

What would people say

If only they knew that I was

Part of some geneticist's plan (plan-plan-plan)

Born to be a carbon copy man (man-man-man)

There in a petri dish late one night

They took a donor's body cell and fertilized a human egg and so I say

I think I'm a clone now

There's always two of me just a-hangin' around

I think I'm a clone now

'Cause every chromosome is a hand-me-down

Look at the way

We go out walking close together

I guess you could say

I'm really beside myself

I still remember how it began (gan-gan-gan)

They produced a carbon copy man (man-man-man)

Born in a science lab late one night

Without a mother or a father, just a test tube and a womb with a view

I think I'm a clone now (a clone now)

There's always two of me just a-hangin' around

I think I'm a clone now (a clone now)

'Cause every chromosome is a hand-me-down

I think I'm a clone now (a clone now)

And I can stay at home while I'm out of town

I think I'm a clone now (a clone now)

'Cause every pair of genes is a hand-me-down

Signing autographs for my fans

Come and meet the carbon copy man

Livin' in stereo, it's all right

Well I can be my own best friend and I can send myself for pizza so I say

I think I'm a clone now

Another one of me's always hangin' around

I think I'm a clone now

'Cause every chromosome is a hand-me-down

I think I'm a clone now (a clone now)

I've been on Oprah Winfrey - I'm world renowned

I think I'm a clone now (a clone now)

And every pair of genes is a hand-me-down

I think I'm a clone now (a clone now)

That's my genetic twin always hangin' around

I think I'm a clone now (a clone now)

'Cause every chromosome is a hand-me-down

I think I'm a clone now (a clone now)

[phee]

I love that song

[Moonlight_Phantasy]

There is so much more to that but I just dont feel like typing a long discription. We had a big discussion in my biology classes about it. Its just another permit for discrimination.

[torn asunder]

Its just another permit for discrimination.

people shouldn't do things to avoid discrimination, people should educate, so discrimination doesn't happen...

[Steven]

well, if god is in charge of everything, and man clones himself, then it must be god's design that he do so, it would seem...

my opinion - all bodies are just vessels, vehicles to get around on this planet in this life. soul/spirit/animation of the body comes from "god" (or what-have-you, i prefer to call it something along the lines of "source") so even if you clone a person, the "soul" that inhabits that particular vessel will be independant and unique. it may have energy/psychic ties to it's dna source (similar to "the twin effect") but i still don't believe  there would be anything inherently wrong with the particular cloned individual.

now, i may take an entirely different view on the "morality" of cloning, based on the intent of the people doing it, but i'm not sure... if we can comprehend it, and we can do it, who's to say it's not just another form of evolution, albiet self-created and promoted!?

:erm  :whistling  :innocent

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good post. As for Gods design were teetering on the free will destiny thing here, but I do beleive your getting it....

Its been taught that the soul is quite simply: your Mind / Will / Emotions. This cannot really be reproduced or manipulated.

Wouldent suprise me if a Human finnally does get cloned, how we love to be God.

[torn asunder]

how we love to be God.

but, i am god! :innocent

[Vater Araignee]

but, i am god!    :innocent

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not if I wake up!

[AstralCrux]

We're taking baby steps to eventual cloning and it starts with fertilization techniques currently in use. No, I don't oppose helping start a family for parents who would do so much just to have children. But, as we become more used to the idea that medical science is there to help it becomes easier to accept- very slowly over a span of years or decades- that cloning will be part of our future.

I believe it will be like identical twins in the sense that they are separate individuals with highly similar traits. The problems with cloning that I have are usage and treatment. Usage, in the sense of are these clones being created to experiment on- I oppose this idea because it violates the rights of the clone. And, treatment, are these people going to be used as second class citizens or will they have full rights? It boils down to, will we treat these people like people.

Now, cloning of individual organs, I'm just not sure about. I don't have a clue how that would be effected in terms of soul.

[Vater Araignee]

Allow me to put one issue to rest.

Cloning for individual organs does not equal cloning a complete human and harvesting them.

Think about it what would be cheaper, Clone yourself then take the clones heart or clone just the heart?

Then think about the fact that once you take a major organ the rest will have to be donated or wasted and who wants a donor organ if they can have a cloned organ of their own?

The real issue on cloning is that people lit their emotions rather then their logic do the thinking.

Maybe I can put another issue to rest. Lets use me as an example.

If I where to be cloned said clone can never be like me.

It can never think like me.

It can never react like me.

Unless you...

Strike it in the head at key points in its life, make it nearly drown, make it suffer extreme blood loss.

Those are just major medical examples that cause parts of the brain trauma and rewiring. Not to mention a plethora of psychological issues brought on by environment. So the clone could never "share my soul" or be like me because it would be an individual.

Now what is stopping my ego from killing somebody that has the potential to cause me trouble by learning to imitate me? The fact that my "SUPERIOR GENETIC STOCK" has a chance to pass its undiluted self further into the gene pool.

[BrassFusion]

We're taking baby steps to eventual cloning and it starts with fertilization techniques currently in use.  No, I don't oppose helping start a family for parents who would do so much just to have children.  But, as we become more used to the idea that medical science is there to help it becomes easier to accept- very slowly over a span of years or decades- that cloning will be part of our future.

I believe it will be like identical twins in the sense that they are separate individuals with highly similar traits.  The problems with cloning that I have are usage and treatment.  Usage, in the sense of are these clones being created to experiment on- I oppose this idea because it violates the rights of the clone.  And, treatment, are these people going to be used as second class citizens or will they have full rights?  It boils down to, will we treat these people like people. 

Now, cloning of individual organs, I'm just not sure about.  I don't have a clue how that would be effected in terms of soul.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I verily agree with about everything you said right here.

Cloning is an eventuality. There's no question of whether it will happen. Instead of permanently "outlawing" it internationally, we have to find ways to practice it safely and fairly.

The argument of clones-as-second-class-citizens seems unfounded, unless the clones were produced for experimental purposes and organ harvesting (THAT'S the sort of behavior we have to prohibit, in the same way we abolished slavery in this country). Clones produced for legacy or simply child-rearing would probably be treated like regular people. Someone's twin, just possibly a different age. Can't you see some narcissistic people just lining up to have a clone of themself to raise as their child? Erin Junior? Hell, I'd do it. :grin

I stopped for a moment to consider whether it would be easy for a really insane person to create clones in a laboratory in their own home to use as slaves, or to harvest organs and tissues from.

I figure it would be only slightly easier than being a woman who finds men to have sex with her every year or so in order to impregnate her so she can give birth and raise the child as a slave. In both cases, it would be tricky, it would take a complete psycho-sociopath, but it would be possible. You'd have to have a soundproof prison colony in your basement to get away with it.

Edit: As to organ cloning and the effect on the soul:

We are but the sum of our memories. That places the soul squarely in the brain, and even if you were to clone a brain, it would be quite similar to the source, but it would have a will of its own and different experiences would affect it differently over the course of a lifetime, like Vater just said. Just like twins.