What is Goth?

[phee]

You can make an argument that Manson is merely dark glam rock.  It's certainly more polished than the original goth bands, so you could say Manson is to Goth what Blink 182 is to punk.

Yup....

And no Clive Barker is not Gothic Lit.... he writes horror

[Blackmail]

Yup....

And no Clive Barker is not Gothic Lit.... he writes horror

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Which is my point, you can't just apply the term goth to anything you want, at least not in the case of literature and in my opinion it is the same for music.

Oh and some of Barker's stuff is fantasy. I am enjoying the comic books he is putting out based on the Great and Secret Show by the way, but that's off topic.

[phee]

Which is my point, you can't just apply the term goth to anything you want, at least not in the case of literature and in my opinion it is the same for music. 

Oh and some of Barker's stuff is fantasy.  I am enjoying the comic books he is putting out based on the Great and Secret Show by the way, but that's off topic.

I would say that a lot of "Goths" are into Clive Barker... but also a lot of G-Homies are into gold chains and jewelry.... which does not make DeBeers G-homie...

(Great and Secret show is AWESOME)

[Scary Guy]

I'm right, get over it.

If we want to stick to the classic terminology then there is no "gothic" music. Gothic = form of archetecture or germanic tribes of long long ago. If you want to say a certain type of music is "gothic" then lets go with chamber music (and no, not Coal Chamber though "My Mercy" is pretty dark). That's if you want to be picky. Not even true goths of today are truely goth and everyone should just shut up and accept that as fact or accept my definition as common fact.

Joy Division is gothic AND it is industrial, they kind of grew togeather because they were both such a small part of culture back in the 80's that they were just lobbed in with eachother and no one thought twice about it. Another good example is Fad Gadget which has many gothic and industrial elements.

Personally I still think Black Sabbath was at the forefront of all things gothic since the lyrics were just as dark as the rock and it predates most of what most call "goth punk".

Take the concept of the "Ying Yang" into what goth is and everything is at least a little bit goth, which is what my definition says.

[BillyDeath]

No izods or happy day izods.

[Blackmail]

I'm right, get over it.

If we want to stick to the classic terminology then there is no "gothic" music.  Gothic = form of archetecture or germanic tribes of long long ago.  If you want to say a certain type of music is "gothic" then lets go with chamber music (and no, not Coal Chamber though "My Mercy" is pretty dark).  That's if you want to be picky.  Not even true goths of today are truely goth and everyone should just shut up and accept that as fact or accept my definition as common fact.

Joy Division is gothic AND it is industrial, they kind of grew togeather because they were both such a small part of culture back in the 80's that they were just lobbed in with eachother and no one thought twice about it.  Another good example is Fad Gadget which has many gothic and industrial elements.

Personally I still think Black Sabbath was at the forefront of all things gothic since the lyrics were just as dark as the rock and it predates most of what most call "goth punk".

Take the concept of the "Ying Yang" into what goth is and everything is at least a little bit goth, which is what my definition says.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So you're saying either:

1. Siouxsie was wrong to call her music goth in the late 70's because only baroque music is truly goth

or

2. Goth is anything you want it to be.

And Joy Division has nothing to do with Industrial whatsoever. The term industrial was coined by Throbbing Gristle. Joy Division has no qualities whatsoever that would make them industrial under any definition of the term.

http://www.brainwashed.com/tg/industrial.html

[phee]

You guys are gunna fight.... this will be great

[Blackmail]

You guys are gunna fight.... this will be great

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not really. I don't care. I don't think Icon of Coil is synthpop either but I'm not gonna fight about it.

[phee]

Not really.  I don't care.  I don't think Icon of Coil is synthpop either but I'm not gonna fight about it.

Aw shucks...

How bout this.... Posh Spice from the Spice Girls is Goth.... and I am right, and no one can disagree

[Blackmail]

Aw shucks...

How bout this.... Posh Spice from the Spice Girls is Goth.... and I am right, and no one can disagree

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

See that's the whole point.

If you think goth is anything you want to be, then yes Posh and Justin Timberlake are goth. Why not? They both wear black on occasion, right?

If you think Goth is an actual musical genre that evolved from punk in the late 70's and that Bauhaus, Siouxsie and the Banshees and The Damned are part of that genre, then no, Posh spice is not goth.

I think there is tangible evidence that Goth is an actual genre and movement. Apparently others disagree and want to use historical goths and chamber music to cloud the issue.

[BillyDeath]

I am the man in black leather, baby.

[n0Mad]

Anytime I see an "arguement" on these boards it generally boils down to the music. What is or isn't goth has to do with musical movement blah blah blah. Granted, literature is often thrown into the mix but only as extra ammo and not the main focus. What about fashion? And I'm not talking black and no Izods. I'm talking styles and designs, fabrics, accessories, etc. Heck, even make up. What about art? How about the whole mindset? Hobbies, interests, topics of conversation (other than music). There's a lot more to goth than just the music or wearing black. So much that I don't think anybody can ever pin it down. On the other hand, it is also just as simple as saying anything is goth if you want it to be.

[Moonlight_Phantasy]

I dont know what goth is. I just know I am a person that doesnt fit in with the rest of the world.

[jadnifer]

I dont know what goth is. I just know I am a person that doesnt fit in with the rest of the world.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I completely agree with you on that. I just am me. if that means im goth, then so be it, if im not thats all good too. but i DONT fit in.

[Scary Guy]

Spook gets it, I don't know why BM doesn't. But the arguement usually turns to music because that's the originally accepted term.

Many people considder Joy Division to be industrial (even if they might be wrong, it's what they think). Yeah I know where it originated and what it requires to be considdered "industrial" and if we go with your terminology then Combichrist and Wumpscut aren't technically "industrial" because they aren't on the label.

Also it's not "anything is gothic if you want it to be" because that is just retarded. It's the degree of goth, and if it's below a certain degree it can't really be called goth.

I've found that it's MORE than just a style of music, and that it's a way of thinking, and a way of life, and have concluded that this style of thinking has existed LONG BEFORE the gothic music movement of the 70's. Good examples of this (and not too long before) are The Doors and Black Sabbath. Good examples of this in music of long ago would be Chamber music, Gregorian chants, and certain classical masterpeices.

I'll admit that Blackmail's definition is what it WAS, but my definition is what it has become/evolved into.

[phee]

Oh brother....

[kellygrrrrrl]

goth is the devil

:whistling :innocent

[Msterbeau]

Kelly is the gothiest.

[phee]

-------I will sum up the rest of the thread for us....

Goth Boy A: So that is what goth is and I am right and you are wrong....

Goth Boy B: No, your definition of goth is wrong wrong wrong... this is what this site said, and it's on the internet and has to be true *insert hyperlinlk to goth site here*

Goth Boy A: I have been going to clubs and DJing for 250 years, and I know everything there is about goth, and I have a big gothic penis, and I am right, and more importantly you are wrong.

Hot Goth Chick: I do my own thing, I don't care what the definition is... I am sexy.

Goth Boy B: I am in a goth band so I know more then you, and I have a lot of witches as friends....

Goth Boy A: My Avatar and screen name mean that I am a better goth then you, and I am an authority, because I gave myself a peace of paper that I signed stating how correct I am...

Phee: I like pants

Goth Boy C: Um..... Blackmetal rules *Smokes a bunch of weed and falls down the stairs*

Goth Boy B: What Ev.... I am so done with this board... I hate you all and I am never comming back!

Moderator: Shut up both of you or I will get Brenda to kick your pail white asses.

Goth Boy A: You are all threatened by my gothic knowledge and gothic penis, that's why he left....

Headwreck: I like Trousers

Goth Boy B (5 minutes later): I am back and I had a period of reflection and I realize that my myspace makes me more goth... and now I DJ too.

Phee: I DJed once it was great...

The Dark: Stop thread Jacking Phee.... I am going to shoot you in the face!

Goth Boy A: You suck Goth Boy B!!! Your not Goth!

Hot Goth Chick: My name is Rayne/Kellygrrrl/Tina/WheresmyPiggy, and I am very sexy...

Goth Boy D: I like electro!!!!! And robots.... I hate goth....

Moderator: Thread closed because you all suck....

---- hope that saves us some time-----

[Msterbeau]

Thank you for making me smile for the first time today. *Claps*

[kellygrrrrrl]

You're wrong Phee

[phee]

Your welcome

[Moonlight_Phantasy]

mew

[phee]

I like pants

[BrassFusion]

I'm goth because I say I am.

If Phee says he's goth, he's goth.

If Scary Guy says he's goth, he's goth.

If BM says he's goth, he's goth.

How about we use self-imposed labels only?