What is Goth?

[Brenda Starrr]

Oh. I see. I can kick ass, but I'm not sexy like Tina and Kelly.

You suck, Phee.

[phee]

Oh. I see. I can kick ass, but I'm not sexy like Tina and Kelly.

You suck, Phee.

Only when asked nicely

[Brenda Starrr]

I'm telling you. I'm not asking.

[phee]

What are you telling me to suck exactly Miss?

[kellygrrrrrl]

:laughing *Snirks* :laughing

[Blackmail]

Spook gets it, I don't know why BM doesn't.  But the arguement usually turns to music because that's the originally accepted term.

The argument turns to music because that is where the style and fashion evolve from. Much like Punk, there was a punk culture and punk fashion but it came from the music.

Many people considder Joy Division to be industrial (even if they might be wrong, it's what they think). 

Please point to one person other than yourself that considers Joy Division to be industrial.

Yeah I know where it originated and what it requires to be considdered "industrial" and if we go with your terminology then Combichrist and Wumpscut aren't technically "industrial" because they aren't on the label.

It's not my terminology, I am sorry but you seriously don't understand what industrial music is.

Also it's not "anything is gothic if you want it to be" because that is just retarded.  It's the degree of goth, and if it's below a certain degree it can't really be called goth.

And who determines this "degree"? You?

I've found that it's MORE than just a style of music, and that it's a way of thinking, and a way of life, and have concluded that this style of thinking has existed LONG BEFORE the gothic music movement of the 70's.  Good examples of this (and not too long before) are The Doors and Black Sabbath.  Good examples of this in music of long ago would be Chamber music, Gregorian chants, and certain classical masterpeices.

The Doors and Black Sabbath are not goth. You're really reaching trying to relate historical goths to goth culutre today. Have you read any Voltaire by any chance?

I'll admit that Blackmail's definition is what it WAS, but my definition is what it has become/evolved into.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If that is the case, why do so many "goths" from the early 80's complain about the scene today? Why when Joey Deadcat pointed out that there are no goths in Detroit you said "He is right"?

[Shade Everdark]

Why are we having this pointless discussion?

[Msterbeau]

Why are we having this pointless discussion?

This is DGN. What else do we do?

[Blackmail]

There's a lot more to goth than just the music or wearing black.  So much that I don't think anybody can ever pin it down. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I suppose you could be right, I say that with a caveat though. If there was no goth music there would be no goth culture today.

You also may be right that you can't pin down what goth really is, but you can usually tell what isn't goth: VNV Nation is not goth. Ronan would be the first person to tell you that. The term Cybergoth is a popular American term but strictly speaking in musical terms, I've read hundreds of articles with all the futurepop bands and have never seen the term cybergoth uttered from any of them.

Again, I don't really care if Scary Guy wants to consider the Doors to be goth or says it's just appreciating the dark things in life, I just disagree with him. As for Joy Division being Industrial, well, that one is not really debatable, they ain't industrial.

[Brenda Starrr]

Why are we having this pointless discussion?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Because I have noticed some gothier-than-thou behavior and wanted to know why they think they are more goth. It then escalated into this.

[phee]

If you wear an Izod... you are goth.... that's all there is to it.

[slingerlandstyx]

-------I will sum up the rest of the thread for us....

Goth Boy A: So that is what goth is and I am right and you are wrong....

Goth Boy B: No, your definition of goth is wrong wrong wrong... this is what this site said, and it's on the internet and has to be true *insert hyperlinlk to goth site here*

Goth Boy A: I have been going to clubs and DJing for 250 years, and I know everything there is about goth, and I have a big gothic penis, and I am right, and more importantly you are wrong.

Hot Goth Chick: I do my own thing, I don't care what the definition is... I am sexy.

Goth Boy B: I am in a goth band so I know more then you, and I have a lot of witches as friends....

Goth Boy A: My Avatar and screen name mean that I am a better goth then you, and I am an authority, because I gave myself a peace of paper that I signed stating how correct I am...

Phee: I like pants

Goth Boy C: Um..... Blackmetal rules *Smokes a bunch of weed and falls down the stairs*

Goth Boy B: What Ev.... I am so done with this board... I hate you all and I am never comming back!

Moderator: Shut up both of you or I will get Brenda to kick your pail white asses.

Goth Boy A: You are all threatened by my gothic knowledge and gothic penis, that's why he left....

Headwreck: I like Trousers

Goth Boy B (5 minutes later): I am back and I had a period of reflection and I realize that my myspace makes me more goth... and now I DJ too.

Phee: I DJed once it was great...

The Dark: Stop thread Jacking Phee.... I am going to shoot you in the face!

Goth Boy A: You suck Goth Boy B!!! Your not Goth!

Hot Goth Chick: My name is Rayne/Kellygrrrl/Tina/WheresmyPiggy, and I am very sexy...

Goth Boy D: I like electro!!!!! And robots.... I hate goth....

Moderator: Thread closed because you all suck....

---- hope that saves us some time-----

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OMG THAT WAS FRIGGIN' HILARIOUS!!!!!!!!!!!

And why didn't you list brenda as a potential possibility for the role of hot goth chick?

[Brenda Starrr]

OMG THAT WAS FRIGGIN' HILARIOUS!!!!!!!!!!!

And why didn't you list brenda as a potential possibility for the role of hot goth chick?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Because he sucks. Shitty, shitty Phee.

[phee]

She was not in the script... her part was "ModGoddess"

[Scary Guy]

The argument turns to music because that is where the style and fashion evolve from.  Much like Punk, there was a punk culture and punk fashion but it came from the music.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It did NOT come from the music because it existed long before the music/erra you speak of.

Please point to one person other than yourself that considers Joy Division to be industrial.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What my word isn't good enough? It's already been established that I know everything.

It's not my terminology, I am sorry but you seriously don't understand what industrial music is.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If we're going to be "specific" it's anything on the original industrial records label. With the modern accepted terms applied Joy Division counts.

And who determines this "degree"?  You?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Indeed so as I'm the only one who can apparently. Everyone else is just wrong wrong wrong.

The Doors and Black Sabbath are not goth.  You're really reaching trying to relate historical goths to goth culutre today.  Have you read any Voltaire by any chance?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't read, I have no time for actual books. Send me the e-doccument on it.

Sabbath and Morrison are goth, for at the very least the lyrical content. Both had a dark sound on many of their songs.

I'm also not reaching for anything. There is no relation between goth culture of the past and goth culture of the 80's or goth culture of today. The only original goth culture is the original one, if we're being technical.

Like all things though the terminology has changed. Gay nolonger means happy, tramp nolonger means homeless and goth nolonger means either of the past definitions. I've adopted the updated one because the meaning has changed.

If that is the case, why do so many "goths" from the early 80's complain about the scene today?  Why when Joey Deadcat pointed out that there are no goths in Detroit you said "He is right"?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Like I said, the meaning has changed. Technically the goths he is talking about don't exist here. That form of goth is all but dead, replaced by Horror/Terror EBM. I know some of the people he's talking aobut, and they don't post on here or the other detroit forum for a reason.

Two types of goth, modern goth and post goth (or true goth). Since post goth is outdated it's just merged into the modern goth to create just one word to describe it all "goth".

You see that in all the local "goth" clubs too, none of which are really all that goth. I'm pretty much the only one playing true goth music these days and I don't do it the whole night because most people don't want to hear it anymore. I'll open and I'll close with it. Mostly I do classic industrial. Luna still plays an occasional truely goth song now and then, usually one that was popular. Labyrinth did it for a while with Deep Dark Retro on Wed's but no longer. Mephisto's has Egor who can and will play some great deep classic goth tracks, However the owner wants him to keep it upbeat and dancy because he can't accept the fact that he owns a lounge and not a dance club. Necto is so far from traditional goth it's not even funny.

The scene has been taken over by gravers and changed most of the original people in the scene into gravers.

So that is what goth is and I am right and you are wrong....

Maybe I should change my name to Goth Boy A :innocent

[phee]

Heh....

[n0Mad]

I'm goth because I say I am.

If Phee says he's goth, he's goth.

If Scary Guy says he's goth, he's goth.

If BM says he's goth, he's goth.

How about we use self-imposed labels only?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am a banana. :peanutbutterjellytime

[Joey Deadcat]

[Rayne]

I am me ... I don't care what the "label" is.

That is all.

[torn asunder]

every time i see this title, i keep thinking,

*singing* - "what is goth? baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me, no more!"

:fear

[Brenda Starrr]

every time i see this title, i keep thinking,

*singing* - "what is goth? baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me, no more!"

:fear

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Me too. So much so that I was going to "sing" it here.

[Blackmail]

It did NOT come from the music because it existed long before the music/erra you speak of.

What my word isn't good enough?  It's already been established that I know everything.

If we're going to be "specific" it's anything on the original industrial records label.  With the modern accepted terms applied Joy Division counts.

Indeed so as I'm the only one who can apparently.  Everyone else is just wrong wrong wrong.

I don't read, I have no time for actual books.  Send me the e-doccument on it.

Sabbath and Morrison are goth, for at the very least the lyrical content.  Both had a dark sound on many of their songs.

I'm also not reaching for anything.  There is no relation between goth culture of the past and goth culture of the 80's or goth culture of today.  The only original goth culture is the original one, if we're being technical.

Like all things though the terminology has changed.  Gay nolonger means happy, tramp nolonger means homeless and goth nolonger means either of the past definitions.  I've adopted the updated one because the meaning has changed.

Like I said, the meaning has changed.  Technically the goths he is talking about don't exist here.  That form of goth is all but dead, replaced by Horror/Terror EBM.  I know some of the people he's talking aobut, and they don't post on here or the other detroit forum for a reason.

Two types of goth, modern goth and post goth (or true goth).  Since post goth is outdated it's just merged into the modern goth to create just one word to describe it all "goth".

You see that in all the local "goth" clubs too, none of which are really all that goth.  I'm pretty much the only one playing true goth music these days and I don't do it the whole night because most people don't want to hear it anymore.  I'll open and I'll close with it.  Mostly I do classic industrial.  Luna still plays an occasional truely goth song now and then, usually one that was popular.  Labyrinth did it for a while with Deep Dark Retro on Wed's but no longer.  Mephisto's has Egor who can and will play some great deep classic goth tracks, However the owner wants him to keep it upbeat and dancy because he can't accept the fact that he owns a lounge and not a dance club.  Necto is so far from traditional goth it's not even funny.

The scene has been taken over by gravers and changed most of the original people in the scene into gravers.

So that is what goth is and I am right and you are wrong....

Maybe I should change my name to Goth Boy A  :innocent

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ok I give up. From now on I'll defer to you. Everything is goth. Jim Morrison is goth, Black Sabbath is goth, Joy Division is industrial, there is no longer any true goth and all those new Dark Wave and Death Rock bands don't really exist and goth fashion came before goth music, which is The Doors and Black Sabbath and not Evanescense because they are posuers.

[BrassFusion]

We need a new definition.

Goth = insecure people who wear black most of the time.

Emo = same thing, but wear black less often and have broader taste in music, if only to impress others by being "eclectic."

Now who's going to argue me?

[slingerlandstyx]

Two types of goth, modern goth and post goth (or true goth).  Since post goth is outdated it's just merged into the modern goth to create just one word to describe it all "goth".

You see that in all the local "goth" clubs too, none of which are really all that goth.  I'm pretty much the only one playing true goth music these days and I don't do it the whole night because most people don't want to hear it anymore.  I'll open and I'll close with it.  Mostly I do classic industrial.  Luna still plays an occasional truely goth song now and then, usually one that was popular.  Labyrinth did it for a while with Deep Dark Retro on Wed's but no longer.  Mephisto's has Egor who can and will play some great deep classic goth tracks, However the owner wants him to keep it upbeat and dancy because he can't accept the fact that he owns a lounge and not a dance club.  Necto is so far from traditional goth it's not even funny.

The scene has been taken over by gravers and changed most of the original people in the scene into gravers.

So that is what goth is and I am right and you are wrong....

Maybe I should change my name to Goth Boy A  :innocent

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Then we should try to establish a new term, rather than an updated definition.

[phee]

Then we should try to establish a new term, rather than an updated definition.

What like: "Scaryguynians"?