Isreal Bombing Lebinon

[Head Wreck]

not really, islam and judeasim has a common link.

abraham

[BrassFusion]

islam just isn't as old as judaism, as a religion... but of course you're right that isaac and ishmael were close enough to the same age.

so why are they so pissed off at each other all the time?

[Head Wreck]

why are catholics and protestants got such a bloody history.

people just are people at the end of the day

[BrassFusion]

secularists aren't, then.

[phee]

secularists aren't, then.

That is an interesting statement....

It is my belief that a lot of the people who do kill in the name of God, are themselves secularists, but can see the blind and ignorent way that people follow religion and are smart enough to lie about their religious beliefs to there own ends...

[BrassFusion]

That is an interesting statement....

It is my belief that a lot of the people who do kill in the name of God, are themselves secularists, but can see the blind and ignorent way that people follow religion and are smart enough to lie about their religious beliefs to there own ends...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

that's so insightful my brain just exploded

[Paper Hearts]

Paul - there have been Arabs in the area for many many years but not as long as there have been Jews there, Jeruselum is mentioned in the Torah but not mention in the Quran.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

When Isreal can prove that there is a god, and that the god that there is, is not only theirs but sees things thier way, I'll give them Jeruselem. The Torah is an old book but it is a bit biased towards Jewish people, you'll have to admit, and beyond that, it's important to note that people lived there long before the Torah was around. I do not think that the Torah is reputable for setttling realastate disputes, especially not in this case.

The Torah's age certainly does not make Jeruselem any less important to Muslims that feel Jeruselem is thier right and how can anyone assume that Islam warrants any less respect than Judeism? There is the possibility, always, that Judeism is completely unfounded and that Islam is the only true religeon. If that is the case, then you'd better give Jeruselem to Muslim groups.

If we're only basing the right to Jeruselem on the age of religeous manuals then Jeruselem belongs to the Hindus, because they have the oldest one. Religeon should not be a factor in deciding though because at this point, all religeous books are yet works of fiction.

Both sides here want complete control of Jeruselem and that is really unfortunate. That is extremism. I see one extremist group against another extremist group and I'm half inclined to hope that they stack each other's corpses high enough to reach into outerspace. My only concern are innocent people who get caught up in the middle.

[Blackmail]

When Isreal can prove that there is a god, and that the god that there is, is not only theirs but sees things thier way, I'll give them Jeruselem. The Torah is an old book but it is a bit biased towards Jewish people, you'll have to admit, and beyond that, it's important to note that people lived there long before the Torah was around. I do not think that the Torah is reputable for setttling realastate disputes, especially not in this case.

The Torah's age certainly does not make Jeruselem any less important to Muslims that feel Jeruselem is thier right and how can anyone assume that Islam warrants any less respect than Judeism? There is the possibility, always, that Judeism is completely unfounded and that Islam is the only true religeon. If that is the case, then you'd better give Jeruselem to Muslim groups.

If we're only basing the right to Jeruselem on the age of religeous manuals then Jeruselem belongs to the Hindus, because they have the oldest one. Religeon should not be a factor in deciding though because at this point, all religeous books are yet works of fiction.

Both sides here want complete control of Jeruselem and that is really unfortunate. That is extremism. I see one extremist group against another extremist group and I'm half inclined to hope that they stack each other's corpses high enough to reach into outerspace. My only concern are innocent people who get caught up in the middle.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What is all of this? I was responding to your claim that arabs have been there as long as the Jews, when there is enough evidence that the Jews were the ones who inhabited the land since as far back as we can tell. When you have evidence that Arabs have been there as long as Jews call my mobile phone and leave a voice mail if I don't answer.

[Paper Hearts]

What is all of this?  I was responding to your claim that arabs have been there as long as the Jews, when there is enough evidence that the Jews were the ones who inhabited the land since as far back as we can tell.    When you have evidence that Arabs have been there as long as Jews call my mobile phone and leave a voice mail if I don't answer.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, you sited the age of the Torah, which was stupid. I believe Jewish people have a right to be there but I also believe that Arabs do as well. Arabs were there before the Torah, obviously they would be, the area is surrounded by Arab lands AND Arabs were well established there when the borders were drawn. I am inclined to believe that the Palestinians are entitled to have their own land there-as well was the leadership of this country and many others...and I don't think handing them a couple small and barren cornors is going to seem very satisfactory to them...and it hasn't been. There needs to be a sharing of Jeruselem some how...no Palestine is not intersted in sharing but...niether is Isreal.

[Blackmail]

Well, you sited the age of the Torah, which was stupid. I believe Jewish people have a right to be there but I also believe that Arabs do as well. Arabs were there before the Torah, obviously they would be, the area is surrounded by Arab lands AND Arabs were well established there when the borders were drawn. I am inclined to believe that the Palestinians are entitled to have their own land there-as well was the leadership of this country and many others...and I don't think handing them a couple small and barren cornors is going to seem very satisfactory to them...and it hasn't been. There needs to be a sharing of Jeruselem some how...no Palestine is not intersted in sharing but...niether is Isreal.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Siting the Torah was stupid?

It is a carbon dated piece of literature that archeologist use to as evidence for several things.

Furthermore, no one said Arabs don't deserve to be there. It's the Muslims that want the Jews out. The Jews signed the Wye River peace deal, they withdrew from Gaza, they offered land at the Camp David accords.

Do you know anything about this? Seriously Paul you seem to have alot of misconceptions of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

[Blackmail]

if we're talking about muslims vs. jews, jews will always have the historical "dibs" on jerusalem because their religion is thousands of years older than islam. but... what does that prove? i don't see how it gives them a right to bomb the fuck out of palestinians, which is not to say that palestinians have the right to bomb the fuck out of israel. why would they want to?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i have no idea what this is even in response to. No one said that anyone had a 'right' to bomb anyone, this is not about Jeruselum anymore (that ship had sailed long ago) and I was replying to Paul's claim that arabs have been there as long as Jews, not using the Torah as a justification for any bombing.

[Paper Hearts]

Siting the Torah was stupid? 

It is a carbon dated piece of literature that archeologist use to as evidence for several things.   

Furthermore, no one said Arabs don't deserve to be there.  It's the Muslims that want the Jews out.  The Jews signed the Wye River peace deal, they withdrew from Gaza, they offered land at the Camp David accords.

Do you know anything about this?  Seriously Paul you seem to have alot of misconceptions of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This piece of land has been disputed for thousands of years. It's not something new Ted. It's not something you can just call Isreal and think that Palestinians will be happy. If you think you've got a handle on it simply by saying the land belongs to Isreal and will be called Isreal because the Torah claims the Jewish have been there...the Torah, the Jewish religeous manual...you're the one without any understanding. The Palestians don't just want Gazza though. This has always been about more than just Gazza. That should be obvious.

[Paper Hearts]

Isreal's claim to exist in that area is based on geography that they took BY FORCE 30 some years ago, officially; I said it earlier and you pretended to not know what I was talking about. Their official claim does not mention the Torah Ted, because that would be ridiculous. I'm not sure that this gives Isreal a right to be there or not, given thousands of years of conflict, but I don't take sides when it means siding with religeous extremists and to join either camp here, that's what I'd have to do.

Does Hezbolah have a right to launch 72 missles into random targets? I personally do not believe it's a great approach but you know, and I'm not sure you'll admit it, but you know Isreal does not often show great tact in the targets it chooses or the way it responds. Today was a perfect example.

There is now only one way in and out of Lebanon and it's through Syria and that is NUTS.

Isreal is simply bombing any area in Lebanon they want to.

What is really to blame is the United States that said it's reasonable to react any way you want to Terrorism.

I am not convinced that Hezbolah in Lebanon can be considered a terrorist group, they're more like a political party. Or even a defacto government in some areas. It's hard to call them terrorists when they represent the opinions of so many people.

[Blackmail]

This piece of land has been disputed for thousands of years. It's not something new Ted. It's not something you can just call Isreal and think that Palestinians will be happy. If you think you've got a handle on it simply by saying the land belongs to Isreal and will be called Isreal because the Torah claims the Jewish have been there...the Torah, the Jewish religeous manual...you're the one without any understanding. The Palestians don't just want Gazza though. This has always been about more than just Gazza. That should be obvious.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nice straw man Paul. When did I say the land was Israel's because it said so in the Torah? here's a hint: I didn't say it.

The Muslims want the Israeli's gone altogether, that's what they want. They do not want to share the land. Bill Clinton was sympatheric to the Palestinian cause until he went over there and realized he was on the Israeli's side.

Everytime there has been a chance at peace, the Israeli's have tried but the Palestinians have thumbed their nose. You can't dispute this, even Abbas has said it himself. I'll dig up the link if you want it.

It's easy to use google. The Israeli's have said they will live next to the Palestinians. The Israeli's have Arabs in the IDF and in Israeli parlimament. There are even a few muslims in the IDF. The Israeli's have never said in recent times that there should be no Muslims there.

Can you say the same for Palestineans? No. They don't allow women to vote. They cheered when 3,000 Americans died on 9/11. They target civillians. They have repeatedly said that Israel has no right to even exist. They have declined every peace deal offered to them. They have voted in a terrorist group into political power. Abbas is the first Palestinian who actually wants peace and he has had other Palestinians attempt to kill him.

Anyway Paul, since you're the expert on the middle east and find my posts about it to be stupid (even though I've studied this extensively at University) you might want to insult this guy too:

"Arab critics of Israel speak of Jewish migration to Palestine after World War I, neglecting to mention that there has been a substantial and continuous Jewish presence in the land for over three thousand years, and a steady Jewish majority in Jerusalem. Nor do they care to remember that when, after World War II, the General Assembly proposed to partition Palestine, this followed an earlier (1922) and illegal partition by the British which gave almost 80% of the land promised to the Jews by the Balfour Declaration to create the Arab state of Transjordan. Thus, at the time of the 1947 partition vote in the United Nations, the Jews had already been unlawfully deprived of four-fifths of their entitlement.

- Louis Rene Beres

Professor of International Law

Department of Political Science

Purdue University

or this guy:

:The truth is that Palestine is no more real than Never-Never Land. ...Palestine has never existed ...as an autonomous entity. It was ruled alternately by Rome, by Islamic and Christian crusaders, by the Ottoman Empire and, briefly, by the British after World War I. The British agreed to restore at least part of the land to the Jewish people as their homeland."

- Joseph Farah, Arab-American journalist,

editor and CEO of WorldNetDaily

[Blackmail]

Palestinian Children being taught how to be terrorist:

Sad thing is, there are hundreds of pics on the net just like these.

[Paper Hearts]

What you are missing is that to most Arabs, Isreal has never existed. To most Arabs Isreal is a terrorist. Too many other people in the world, this is true as well. And given thier methods it's impossible for me to say otherwise.

I see right-wing religeous extremists on one side

I see right-wing religeous extremists on the other side.

Thus, I do not care who wins and loses. What I said is that I'm half inclined to hope that they stack eachother's corpses high enough to reach into outerspace. To me, both sides are in the wrong.

My only real concern are innocent people who get caught up in the middle.

[BrassFusion]

I wish I had more time before I had to go teach to look up that logical fallacy website again and go through your posts, Ted, quoting out every instance and labeling it. Sometimes you have sound arguments, but even when you do, it seems like you need to appeal to authority ONLY for quotes that subjectively agree with what you're saying and contain no actual data, or you relate realistic data (the age of the Torah) to something that has absolutely nothing to do with it (who deserves Jerusalem). Then you insult the person who doesn't agree with your fractured logic.

The only thing that sticks out this early in the morning is when you said that it's no longer about control of Jerusalem, that "that ship has sailed," and that it's NOW about the age of the Torah.

You're justifying and enforcing a threadjack? How very hypocritical of you.

----

I'm enjoying your posts, Paul. Thanks for helping me learn more about the conflict.

[Paper Hearts]

I wish I had more time before I had to go teach to look up that logical fallacy website again and go through your posts, Ted, quoting out every instance and labeling it. Sometimes you have sound arguments, but even when you do, it seems like you need to appeal to authority ONLY for quotes that subjectively agree with what you're saying and contain no actual data, or you relate realistic data (the age of the Torah) to something that has absolutely nothing to do with it (who deserves Jerusalem). Then you insult the person who doesn't agree with your fractured logic.

The only thing that sticks out this early in the morning is when you said that it's no longer about control of Jerusalem, that "that ship has sailed," and that it's NOW about the age of the Torah.

You're justifying and enforcing a threadjack? How very hypocritical of you.

----

I'm enjoying your posts, Paul. Thanks for helping me learn more about the conflict.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, Ted is a genius guy and he's a friend of mine. I did cross the line a bit, but so did he. That's alright, I can take it.

In all fairness, Ted has studied this more than I have. But Ted is biased on this particular issue. He's very welcome to his opinion but I just think that anyone who can ignore or discount all of Isreal's attrocities again Palestinians is biased. I'm not saying Arabs have not committed attrocities against Jews, either.

Hezbolah kidnaps 2 Isreali soldiers...but how many Arabs has Isreal rounded up and put in jail in the last month, without any real evidence, calling them members of a terrorist militias (such as Hezbolah)? Is 200 a reasonable estimate?

[phee]

I do think that one difference between the 2 warring states is how they react to aggression... I really don't pick sides in this, but one reason why Isreal looks better to America/Western eyes, is that Isreal reacts in a way that is more western... picking targets and reacting more "military like" verses the other model which kidnaps and suicide bombs.... Dead people are dead people, this is true, and the end result of both methods ultimantly comes down to that. One just seems more "civilized" to the west.

[Paper Hearts]

I do think that one difference between the 2 warring states is how they react to aggression... I really don't pick sides in this, but one reason why Isreal looks better to America/Western eyes, is that Isreal reacts in a way that is more western... picking targets and reacting more "military like" verses the other model which kidnaps and suicide bombs.... Dead people are dead people, this is true, and the end result of both methods ultimantly comes down to that. One just seems more "civilized" to the west.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Isreal does not pick targets: What Isreal did yesterday was launch missles into areas that they *thought might be general areas that Hezbolah's missles came from, without really caring or knowing if that was truth. their attitude was, "well we think they came from here, if not, sorry about your luck".

Isreal does not pick targets: Isreal, like the United States jails Arabs calling them terrorists, without trials. If one of the thousands of Arabs they have in their jails is innocent, then Isreal does not pick targets. Isreal instead attacks civilian targets. At least Hezbolah captured Isreali soldiers.

Isreal does not pick targets: Demolishing the homes of someone's family because that someone committed a crime is not picking targets. If we Demolished the homes of the families of all of our criminals here, a few people would be pissed off.

I could go on.

[phee]

Isreal does not pick targets: What Isreal did yesterday was launch missles into areas that they *thought might be general areas that the missles came from without really caring or knowing if that was truth. their attitude was, "well we think they came from here, if not, sorry about your luck".

Isreal does not pick targets: Isreal, like the United States jails Arabs calling them terrorists, without trials. If one of the thousands of Arabs they have in their jails is innocent, then Isreal does not pick targets. Isreal instead attacks civilian targets.

Isreal does not pick targets: Demolishing the homes of someone's family because that someone committed a crime is pnot picking targets. If we Demolished the homes of all of our criminals families here, a few people would be pissed off.

I could go on.

Exactly... my point being they do stuff and say that they pick targets.... and there methods are closer to American methods, which is why it doesn't seem so bad... they claim targets.... the actual content is up in the air though

[Paper Hearts]

Exactly... my point being they do stuff and say that they pick targets.... and there methods are closer to American methods, which is why it doesn't seem so bad... they claim targets.... the actual content is up in the air though

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Okay, I'll give you that. Good point. But Arab militants claim that their targets are legitimate too. I don't think either of them pick legitimate targets. like I said though, at least Hezbolah kidnapped what were undeniably Isreali soldiers at the begining of this. Isreal on the other hand is simply locking up anyone they suspect. They may be innocent civilians, they may not be. And yes, they learned it from the United States.

[phee]

Right... as I said they are doing the same thing.... But isreal does it more Westerny...

IE: Arab militants will strap bombs to themselves and blow up a shopping mall full of women and children and say that they did it on purpose...

Where as Isreal will level a city block killing women and children and claim that "we heard there were terrorists there, and the civilians are collateral damage due to the miltiant goverment sponsoring terror blah blah blah etc..." Which sounds much more like Western explinations

[phee]

For example a bunch of Hezbollah rockets just hit a resort town read about it here

[Paper Hearts]

Right... as I said they are doing the same thing.... But isreal does it more Westerny...

IE: Arab militants will strap bombs to themselves and blow up a shopping mall full of women and children and say that they did it on purpose...

Where as Isreal will level a city block killing women and children and claim that "we heard there were terrorists there, and the civilians are collateral damage due to the miltiant goverment sponsoring terror blah blah blah etc..." Which sounds much more like Western explinations

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yep. I think you see it pretty close to how I do.

Here's something I've always enjoyed:

When asked what he thought of western civilization Mahatma Gandhi responded

"I think it would be a gret idea."