Isreal Bombing Lebinon

[ZhukovCodeslinger]

I think he is thinking of the 1969 "6 Day War"

In that one... Eqypt started blockading all of Israel's ports and road ways... kicked the UN troops out of the Sinai regian and then placed a rather large army there with threats against Israel.

Israel responded by attacking Syria.

Jordan attacked Israel

Iraq attacked Israel

Israel kicked all thier asses and sent them home. As payment they kept control of the Gaza Strip, the Sinai Peninsula, the West Bank, and the Golan Heights.

Jerusalem is partially in the West Bank.. the other half of the city is in Israel proper.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The 6 day war was in 1967 and the israelis attacked egypt while bombing all the military (and civilian) airports in most of the middle east all at once. That was also when they captured all of jerusalem, the sinai (all the way to the east bank of the Nile), the west bank, the golan hights, and the gaza strip. The israelis attacked because it was clear to them (and to the rest of the world) that the muslim arab nations were planning an attack (note, Israelis are a mix of arabs and european jews...)

In the 73 war, the egyptians and syrians made another go at getting back the sinai and golan respectively. This went well for the egyptians at first, but by the end of it the isrealis had counterattacked and crossed over the nile headding toward Cairo. Incidently, there is a knocked out M-48 (us built tank) that is 40-50 miles closer to Cairo than egypt has ever admitted. They claim it is one of their tanks (they bought some from the usa in the late 70s), but photos show it there on the side of the road years earlier than it could have been, had it been an egyptian tank.

but i digress, back to 73 war. Sadat (who took over from Nasser after he died), signs a peace treaty with Israel and they stop fighting. part of the deal is a promise of military and $$$ aid from the USA. He is repaid by the percursor to Al Queida (the Muslim Brotherhood) who stages his assassination.

the israelis and muslims have not fought a major war since then... just the peace for galile invasion of southern lebanon and beirut in the 80s...

[ZhukovCodeslinger]

Ok.  But what does taking out the runway in Beirut have to do with anything?  Trying to prevent escape routes? 

Forget I said anything.  They're all nuts.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Lebanon has very few major industries: tourism and financial/banking.

Cratering the runways (not a big problem to fix) will put an end to tourism without killing anyone... it also makes the country look unstable and puts an end to it as a great place to hide money. This is somthing that most "rich" arabs do.

By doing this, Israel is putting major pressure on the Lebanese gov. to do somthing about the southern 1/3 of their country that is basically lawless and ruled by Islamic fundamentalists/terrorists. The northern 1/3 of the country is about as secular as you can get and still claim to be a muslim with a straight face. They are invloved in banking, tourism, and OMG they brew pretty good beer.... (you can get it here at La Shish.

[Paper Hearts]

Just thinking about this on ze way home:

Isreal bombing away so much of Lebanon's infrastructure only makes it easier for Hezbolah to gain power within Lebanon and it also makes it even more difficult for the Lebanese govt to be able to track and control Hezbolah.

Could it be that Isreal had an alterior motive?

[Guest Game of Chance]

Did something happen with Israel?

[Paper Hearts]

Did something happen with Israel?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, essentially nothing new.

I'm not sure what you mean. There have been developments since the date this thread started, if that's what you mean.

[Guest Game of Chance]

Well, essentially nothing new.

I'm not sure what you mean. There have been developments since the date this thread started, if that's what you mean.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, I'm just fucking around...pretending to be clueless. I was hoping someone would read my post, read my sig, and then say to themselves...hey, wait a minute.

[The_Dark]

Paperhearts... to answer an earlier question of yours. There is an UN Resolution telling Lebanon to disarm and control Hezbollah. Hezbollah has complete control of half the country and the government has done nothing to change that. I understand though... Half their parliament is loyal to Syria or Hezbollah... and they are loyal to Iran.

[Homicidalheathen]

Oh I thought the thread was: Israel bombing lesbians. Sorry, as you were. :whistling

[Paper Hearts]

Paperhearts... to answer an earlier question of yours. There is an UN Resolution telling Lebanon to disarm and control Hezbollah. Hezbollah has complete control of half the country and the government has done nothing to change that. I understand though... Half their parliament is loyal to Syria or Hezbollah... and they are loyal to Iran.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, asking Lebanon to get rid of Hezbolah is like asking a one-legged man to play soccer though. And then when you take out their infrastructure you're kind of like sawing off the one leg left, I think. I mean..I just don't see it being all together sensable to punish the decent people of Lebanon for not eradicating Hezbolah. Like I said, Lebanon has been jailing Hezbolah members when they can catch them.

So now, Hezbolah is still in Lebanon yet the Lebanese political map becomes even more vague and so the Lebanese govt can do even less to control them. Hell, Hezbolah was able to respond faster to the Isreali bombings with counter violence than the Lebanese govt.

[Blackmail]

What you are missing is that to most Arabs, Isreal has never existed. To most Arabs Isreal is a terrorist. Too many other people in the world, this is true as well. And given thier methods it's impossible for me to say otherwise.

I see right-wing religeous extremists on one side

I see right-wing religeous extremists on the other side.

Thus, I do not care who wins and loses. What I said is that I'm half inclined to hope that they stack eachother's corpses high enough to reach into outerspace. To me, both sides are in the wrong.

My only real concern are innocent people who get caught up in the middle.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Give some examples of how Israel is a terrorist? Give me examples of right wing religious extrmemism on Israel's side.

Thank you.

[Blackmail]

by the way, I am not sure how I feel about the recent violence. I still blame Hezbollah but I am not sure I would be bombing everyone like Israel is, so my "bias" comes from the fact that I think Israel only acts in ciolence after they've been attacked but they might be going too far right now.

[Paper Hearts]

Give some examples of how Israel is a terrorist?    Give me examples of right wing religious extrmemism on Israel's side.   

Thank you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A lot of people list the ferocity of the Isreali air campaign, lately. The type that attacks mosques on suspician alone...or bombs trucks full of journalists even after the journalists notified the Isreali govt of their traveling through Lebanon, inwhat vehicle, via which road and @ a specific time. etc.

Other people would list all of the Arabs Isreal essentially kidnaps because they imprison people indeffinately on suspician alone, w/out hope of trial.

Still other people would list the existance at all of the war in Lebanon as evidence. It's senseless. Why would anyone in their right mind choose to weaken the Lebanese govt via destroying it's infrastructure when the problem was the Lebanese govt's inability to control Hezbollah, in the first place? In the ashes of the war, groups such as Hezbollah are only bound to gain more influence as the Lebanese govt loses the (albeit small) reach it once had.

How does Isreal think that abolishing the "permenant" settlement is going to be helpfull if even briefly? Why are those people being punished? Not even "God told me to do it" President Douche thinks it's right. Everyone is calling for an end to it.

[Blackmail]

A lot of people list the ferocity of the Isreali air campaign, lately. The type that attacks mosques on suspician alone...or bombs trucks full of journalists even after the journalists notified the Isreali govt of their traveling through Lebanon, inwhat vehicle, via which road and @ a specific time. etc.

Other people would list all of the Arabs Isreal essentially kidnaps because they imprison people indeffinately on suspician alone, w/out hope of trial.

Still other people would list the existance at all of the war in Lebanon as evidence. It's senseless. Why would anyone in their right mind choose to weaken the Lebanese govt via destroying it's infrastructure when the problem was the Lebanese govt's inability to control Hezbollah, in the first place? In the ashes of the war, groups such as Hezbollah are only bound to gain more influence as the Lebanese govt loses the (albeit small) reach it once had.

How does Isreal think that abolishing the "permenat" settlement is going to be helpfull if even briefly? Why are those people being punished? Not even "God told me to do it" President Douche thinks it's right. Everyone is calling for an end to it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

First of all, "god told me to do it" ? Come on Paul. He never said that.

Secondly I asked for examples of right wing religious fanaticism. Attacking mosques doesn't exactly count, Hezbollah hides in Mosques. Are you aware there are muslims in the Israeli parliament? And in the IDF as well. Israel does not discriminate against Muslims. Israel discrminiates against people who attack them and call for their destruction, which happens to be Muslims, almost exclusively. If the terrorism stopped, Israel wouldn't retaliate, simple as that.....problem solved.

Also if you're so concerned about stopping what's going on now, why aren't you calling for Hezbollah to give up it's illegal militia and return the hostages it took? That would stop all of this. The same people you are quoting about stopping the violence right now called on Hezbollah to give up it's arm years ago.

I am not sure bombing everything in South Lebanon is the right thing to do but Israel did warn the civillians to leave and they are trying to put an end to Hezbollah once and for all. Plus the kidnappingsd are hardly the first time Hezbollah has started crap, they toss missles in N. Israel every few months. At what point do you do everything in your power to stop them?

[Paper Hearts]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressrele...r/06/bush.shtml

God told me to invade Iraq, Bush tells Palestinian ministers

Category: News

Date: 06.10.2005

Printable version

President George W Bush told Palestinian ministers that God had told him to invade Afghanistan and Iraq - and create a Palestinian State, a new BBC series reveals.

In Elusive Peace: Israel and the Arabs, a major three-part series on BBC TWO (at 9.00pm on Monday 10, Monday 17 and Monday 24 October), Abu Mazen, Palestinian Prime Minister, and Nabil Shaath, his Foreign Minister, describe their first meeting with President Bush in June 2003.

Nabil Shaath says: "President Bush said to all of us: 'I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, "George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan." And I did, and then God would tell me, "George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq …" And I did. And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, "Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East." And by God I'm gonna do it.'"

Abu Mazen was at the same meeting and recounts how President Bush told him: "I have a moral and religious obligation. So I will get you a Palestinian state."

The series charts the attempts to bring peace to the Middle East, from President Bill Clinton's peace talks in 1999/2000 to Israel's withdrawal from Gaza last August.

Norma Percy, series producer of The 50 Years War (1998) returns, with producers Mark Anderson and Dan Edge, to tell the inside story of another seven years of crisis.

Presidents and Prime Ministers, their generals and ministers tell what happened behind closed doors as peace talks failed and the intifada exploded.

***

Do you honestly believe that God told this man to start a war or is he just a wacko? It has to be one or the other-

[Blackmail]

Paul did you read that article?

Nabil Shaath said Bush said it. Shaath is the Palestinian information minister. Do you know anything about him?

There is no actual evidence Bush said that, other than someone claiming he did.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabil_Shaath

"Shaath later qualified his comments, saying that he and other world leaders at a Jordan summit two years ago "understood that he was illustrating [in his comments] his strong faith and his belief that this is what God wanted." Both the White House and Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas, who was also present at the meeting, deny that Bush ever made such a statement"

[Paper Hearts]

If you believe that god wants you to start a war...or if you believe god told you to start a war is the same thing.

Here's a good one:

In the absence of the applicability of the accords in the Geneva convention, is it still right to torture detainees? -Ones that haven't even been proven to be connected to terrorism by any method described to the public. And we know that they've captured and held some people they shouldn't have already. British citizens, Australian citizens, etc.

I personally feel that torture by any means, of any prisoner, no matter where or how or under whatever circumstances is wrong. And in this case it's all the more extreme and underhanded. These people are no more than innocent civilians at this point.

The UN and Human Rights Watch have repremanded the US govt on this issue in just the last couple weeks.

[Blackmail]

If you believe that god wants you to start a war...or if you believe god told you to start a war is the same thing.

Here's a good one:

In the absence of the applicability of the accords in the Geneva convention, is it still right to torture detainees? -Ones that haven't even been proven to be connected to terrorism by any method described to the public. And we know that they've captured and held some people they shouldn't have already. British citizens, Australian citizens, etc.

I personally feel that torture by any means, of any prisoner, no matter where or how or under whatever circumstances is wrong. And in this case it's all the more extreme and underhanded.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But there is little evidence Bush ever said anything about God and the Iraq war. If he did, he should be impeached immediately.

As far as torture, well in principle I agree with you. However I would have had no problem if Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi was beaten on live televsion and then beheaded.

Anyway, I am curious as to what you would do if you were Israel. I am not saying they are right to be bombing half of Lebanon. But what would you do if Hezbollah kept attacking and you knew if you didn't end them once and for all that they would just keep doing it?

I don't know the answer.

It's like you said, technicly they are wrong to bulldoze the family of terrorists, but what would you do if terrorism killed your innocent civillians on a routine basis and negotiations with them have failed?

[Paper Hearts]

Well...I suppose I'd push for international intervention or I'd chose methods more orthadox in fighting them alone. If that didn't work, I'd just have to keep going those routes. -Just because they're struggling against Hezbollah doesn't give them liscence to turn into merciless barbarians, in my book. I don't think that two wrongs ever make a right.

Three wrongs make a right, but not two. (just kidding)

But anyway, I guess that was my point, to show how Isreal can be seen for extremists by some. And Hezbollah are nasty, nasty people, I don't want to seem like I'm trying to defend them at all. Hezbollah are deffinately extremists.

[cptdeath]

If anything, I think Israel has shown great restraint in dealing with the Palestinians.  If (random example) Windsor was sending several terrorist a month into Michigan and blowing up grocery stores with innocent people in it, I think Michigan eventually would end it by obliterating Windsor altogether.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

i think that happened with Ohio like 150 years ago or something.

[ZhukovCodeslinger]

... The toledo war was great... nobody died and Ohio lost... they were forced to keep toledo. Michigan then annexed the UP away from the northwest territory.