"Emo rock"

[Paper Hearts]

What is with this title, "Emo"? Seems like someone very self-important involved with this music named it. As if that shit is any more emotional than any other music has been! Show me one other band that hasn't made emotional music, or another genre that is not based on feelings. It's so absurd. Beyond finding this music complete trash, I won't accept the label it's given itself. And because of such a unfitting name, people try and link it to like Fugazi or the Smiths. Laughable! Again, show a band that didn't have sad or emotional songs--it's as old a theme as music itself.

I think just about anyone could list Fugazi or the Smiths as influences...because they were important bands in the history of rock. When I hear "Emo", I compare it to other rock that it sounds like...such as Green Day and that's what I say it's come out of. It's music, it is about sound afterall, isn't it? -It's one thing for a band to have influences but it's another thing, what new types of music appear as a result of. Musically, Emo has not much to do with Smiths or Fugazi...and Emo has less to do with the essence or spirit of either of those bands.

[Hellion]

What is with this title, "Emo"? Seems like someone very self-important involved with this music named it. As if that shit is any more emotional than any other music has been! Show me one other band that hasn't made emotional music, or another genre that is not based on feelings. It's so absurd. Beyond finding this music complete trash, I won't accept the label it's given itself. And because of such a unfitting name, people try and link it to like Fugazi or the Smiths. Laughable! Again, show a band that didn't have sad or emotional songs.

I think just about anyone could list Fugazi or the Smiths as influences...because they were important bands in the history of rock. When I hear "Emo", I compare it to other rock that it sounds like...such as Green Day and that's what I say it's come out of. It's music, it is about sound afterall, isn't it? -It's one thing for a band to have influences but it's another thing, what new types of music appear as a result of. Musically, Emo has not much to do with Smiths or Fugazi...and Emo has less to do with the essence or spirit of either of those bands.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

:devil Well said PH,very well said.

[Guest Game of Chance]

From Wikipedia:

Generally, MacKaye's lyrics and singing are more direct and anthemic (MacKaye admits that he loves audience sing-alongs and writes songs with shoutable slogans), while Picciotto usually favors a more abstract, oblique approach. Lally has contributed vocals to a few songs as well. Lyrics and vocals often feature strong emotional intensity. This style has led many critics to call their music post-hardcore and emocore, as it is seen as a progression of and a reaction to the hardcore punk movement.

more from Wikipedia:

In its original incarnation, the term emo was used to describe the music of the mid-1980s Washington, DC scene and its associated bands. In later years, the term emocore, short for "emotional hardcore", was also used to describe the DC scene and some of the regional scenes that spawned from it. The term emo was derived from the fact that, on occasion, members of a band would become spontaneously and strongly emotional during performances. The most recognizable names of the period included Rites of Spring, Embrace, One Last Wish, Beefeater, Gray Matter, Fire Party, and, slightly later, Moss Icon. The first wave of emo began to fade after the breakups of most of the involved bands in the early 1990s.

Starting in the mid-1990s, the term emo began to reflect the indie scene that followed the influences of Fugazi, which itself was an offshoot of the first wave of emo. Bands including Sunny Day Real Estate and Texas Is the Reason put forth a more indie rock style of emo, more melodic and less chaotic in nature than its predecessor. The so-called "indie emo" scene survived until the late 1990s, as many of the bands either disbanded or shifted to mainstream styles.

see for yourself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emo_%28music%29

Based on our earlier conversation, I guess this means that you can't listen to Fugazi anymore.

I think what it really means is that genres change over time. While I certainly would agree that DC punk rock bands like Rites of Spring and Fugazi certainly shouldn't be put into the same category as a band like Green Day, I think its important to truly know the history of the scene.

[Paper Hearts]

^"on occasion, members of a band would become spontaneously and strongly emotional during performances." This describes every rock band, ever. It's pretty vague, you'll have to admit. Not only that, but this entry describes two types of music that are now defunct...or that's what Wikedia claims about them. What about the shite on the radio nowadays? Is that a different type of Emo than "Emocore" and "Indie Emo" then? -The first Emo genre it talks about, it says started in the mid 80s and died in the early 90s. Note: Fugazi's first album wasn't until the LATE 80s, 88 I think. The second Emo movement it talks about it claims began in the mid 90s and died in the late 90s. I suppose Fugazi 'could be' a catalist for that, but certainly not for the first emo it lists because Fugazi wasn't even around for the start of that one. Wikpedia's deffinition also mentions it's just another word for "post-hardcore" and it says "In its original incarnation, the term emo was used to describe" etc, etc, so they're telling you that what they are discussing isn't necessarily related to what we call "Emo" today--it's simply trying to make a connection between the post-punk bands of the 80s and 90s by using similar albeit uncommon terms to do so, and for this period, Fugazi above all other bands, made the bridge between. Fugazi is exactly the band you'd use here (hats off to them). ...But Wikpedia here doesn't go into all the different types of post-punk hardcore that there were (are)...this is an extremely diverse period for rock...they're simply citing this particular brand of post-hardcore because the band that most easily carries the title from the 80s to the 90s (between their two similar terms they've found) (Fugazi) just happened to be a part of that...but again, those are fairly abstract labels. This artical is actually talking about something completely different than what is commonly known as "Emo", today. Or what I was talking about. It doesn't attempt to give today's "Emo" any merit in talking about Fugazi. And there doesn't seem to be a connection musically at all. I mean does "Emo" have any more resemblance to Fugazi than to any other hardcore band? Do I hear Green Day? No doubt Fugazi is an important rock band, but it's not the same kind of music. I hear a lot of California beach punk in "Emo", but it just doesn't sound like Fugazi. I can see a band like Jaw Breaker being in the same group as Fugazi...but I can't picture a world where Fugazi shares a bill with Incubus, for instance. Royal Trux and Pussy Galore are 2 other DC bands that started up in the late-ish 80s, along side Fugazi...so you could say that they are in the same scene, technically, but I mean not every band from the same city, at a given time, that all use distortion pedals are necessarily of the same type.

Why I can still listen to Fugazi--it's not "Emo".

[Scary Guy]

Fugazi is "Emo", just like every other band out there.

Though some bands are more "Emo" than others.

Generally I classify it as "Punk Alternative" and think that it originally stemmed from The Kinks, and a few other british bands have done.

An Emo band to me seems like some band with a message rather than just someone who wants to rock out for the sake of making music and having fun. They use it as a medium to send out said message and express themselves giving the lyrics "substance". Or at least that's what it used to be. Most of the bands of today whine too much and are lacking in the lyrical department.

[Paper Hearts]

^Again, you're using the term Emo on a different level. You're simply talking about rock that is emotional...and a lot of bands, the vast majority, would fall easily into that, no problems. But what I am talking about is the actual genre we know as "Emo" today...Fugazi is not a part of that movement, clearly, it's not of the same sound...it's not really even of the same era. It's kind of like trying to call Van Gogh a part of the Symbolist movement in painting. Did Van Gogh use symbolism? Absolutely, so too did most painters before and after him. But we say that Van Gogh belonged to the Post-Impressionists, not the Symbolists...because he's of different fundamentals and a different era. And you wouldn't say Van Gogh was in direct blame for Op art, for another example. When you are speaking about something historically or culturally, there's extreme value in speaking literally rather than figuratively...which is where I think the confusion comes from.

[Paper Hearts]

I don't want to confuse people here, so I'll give this another shot-

Here's an example most everyone will have a decent grasp on:

Pornos.

We all know that most types of pornos contain images of physical penetration. it's a pretty obnoxious example, I'll admit, but...not all porn is of the same type, so it's fitting (if also readily familiar). -We have foot-fetish porn, where feet penetrate things, we have girl porn where frequently fists do the penetration...we have BDSM where penetration of the body is not required but a person's character is violated instead of their body, in any case. Penetration, penetration, penetration. It's the name of the game for porn, just like emotion is for music...it's an artform, emotion is what it 'feeds' on.

Now, we don't say that someone is a "Penetration" porn star, because that's pointless to talk about. We instead talk about what types of porn they actually star in. "So-And-So does toilet-trick flicks", for instance.

In the case of today's "Emo" genre, in a sense, what has happened is that it's been named after the penetration. But we don't link Ron Jeremy to beastiality porn simply because he penetrated something in a movie once and in beastiality porn something is being penetrated. And we can't link Fugazi or the Smiths to today's "Emo" movement in that fashion, either. It's just not worth mentioning things that way.

Similarly, we've had art movements called things like "Expressionism", which is a very figurative name for a movement, as well...and it can be just as confusing to talk about unless you think about how it actually receives seperate recognition from other schools of art, which is visually for painting, naturally...just as natural, we use how the sound of music is to us to seperate one type of that from the next...in porn, the issue is what exactly is being fucked and how. True, there are different ideologys behind why one kind of art looks different from another kind, different ideologys that reslut in one type of music sounding different from the next, but in the most basic level of music, we have 'sound', and sound is all that we need to explore here to notice dissimilarities. -On top of this, you have to realize that artists are only responsible for the movements that they themselves participate in. Influences? Sure, we all have them. But we don't say Post-Post-Modernism came out of Warhol. Why? Because Warhol belonged to something of totaly different philosophy, only the art that he made came from him...we don't say that Gerhard Richter's work is Pop art because it contains familiar images like Warhol's..any resemblance present occurs merely because symbolism is something painters use to express themselves visually.

So...to speak only figuratively and say 'Fugazi caused "Emo", or "the Smiths caused Emo" because "they had emotional songs, too" is like saying that all footwear that have laces belong to the same family of shoes.

[Guest Game of Chance]

Dude...get some sleep.

Its quite obvious from the article that music historians describe the DC bands Embrace and Rites of Spring as the two bands that spawned the scene. I hate to break it to you, but those two bands are made up of the members of Fugazi. Fugazi came later, and as the article goes on to recount, was a spinoff of the first wave of emo.

Sorry man, you lost this one.

[HipsterDufus]

All's that I know is that I hate emo kids. Die, yuppie-spawn, die.

[Paper Hearts]

Dude...get some sleep.

Its quite obvious from the article that music historians describe the DC bands Embrace and Rites of Spring as the two bands that spawned the scene.  I hate to break it to you, but those two bands are made up of the members of Fugazi.  Fugazi came later, and as the article goes on to recount, was a spinoff of the first wave of emo.

Sorry man, you lost this one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If I didn't know Rites Of Spring and Guy Picciotto and Ian Mackay and Minor Threat, I wouldn't even be talking here. But the fact is that Fugazi didn't exist when this first DC post-hardcore movement described started. Fugazi is the band, however you'd list if you wanted to build a bridge between the terms emocore and indie emo, there's no doubt. But Wikepedia isn't trying to link those two sub-genres to today's popular "Emo" genre. Again, it makes that clear when it says "In its original incarnation, the term emo was used to describe" blank, blank, blank, in short, something entirely unrelated. If it were related they wouldn't have added that disclaimer. And again, Fugazi, quite litterally could not have started the first movement it describes, because they weren't around yet. It's one thing to list Rites of Spring for that, which they have, but it's another thing to list Fugazi for being what started that, which they haven't. Fugazi is a totally seperate entity than Minor Threat or any other band, it's a different combo of musicians. You wouldn't say that Minor Threat and Fugazi were the same type of music, would you? In short, Fugazi did not spawn post-hardcore and they did not spawn today's "Emo" (which are unrelated). If Ian MacKay thought he was responsible for what people call Emo, today, he'd off himself quickly.

[HipsterDufus]

If I didn't know Rites Of Spring and Guy Picciotto and Ian Mackay and Minor Threat, I wouldn't even be talking here. But the fact is that Fugazi didn't exist when this first DC post-hardcore movement described started. Fugazi is the band, however you'd list if you wanted to build a bridge between the terms emocore and indie emo, there's no doubt. But Wikepedia isn't trying to link those two sub-genres to today's popular "Emo" genre. Again, it makes that clear when it says "In its original incarnation, the term emo was used to describe" blank, blank, blank, in short, something entirely unrelated. If it were related they wouldn't have added that disclaimer. And again, Fugazi, quite litterally could not have started the first movement it describes, because they weren't around yet. It's one thing to list Rites of Spring for that, which they have, but it's another thing to list Fugazi for being what started that, which they haven't. Fugazi is a totally seperate entity than Minor Threat or any other band, it's a different combo of musicians. You wouldn't say that Minor Threat and Fugazi were the same type of music, would you? In short, Fugazi did not spawn post-hardcore and they did not spawn today's "Emo" (which are unrelated). If Ian MacKay thought he was responsible for what people call Emo, today, he'd off himself quickly.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Perhaps you're looking at this the wrong way. I mean, what difference does it make if a band is classified as emo anyway? Just because you listen to Fugazi (whether they're emo or not) does not make you emo. Hell, I listen to Pet Shop Boys, but does that make me a gay Englishman? I also listen to Johnny Cash, Kylie Minogue, Erasure, and Dead Kennedys. But I don't really feel associated with any of the stereotypical listeners for any of those bands.

[Paper Hearts]

Perhaps you're looking at this the wrong way.  I mean, what difference does it make if a band is classified as emo anyway?  Just because you listen to Fugazi (whether they're emo or not) does not make you emo.  Hell, I listen to Pet Shop Boys, but does that make me a gay Englishman?  I also listen to Johnny Cash, Kylie Minogue, Erasure, and Dead Kennedys.  But I don't really feel associated with any of the stereotypical listeners for any of those bands.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Here, here's another source (beyond Wikpedia) that also backs what I'm saying. This source is just a brief and general overview of rock history, but it's not as brief as Wikpedia.

This is for the homepage:

http://www.scaruffi.com/history/index.html

And this is for the chapter that includes bands like Fugazi:

http://www.scaruffi.com/history/cpt420.html

Beyond listening to the music since the 80s and not being able to draw more than the slightest, most meaningless correlation between Fugazi and what is popularly called "Emo" today, you'll not find any link between today's "Emo" and Fugazi (or any other band from their genre) anywhere. Wikpedia is using some abstract terms...and it's probably thrown a few people off. But the fact is, the people at Wikpedia aren't willing to allow today's "Emo" sponsorship either...but emo is a thing, and they are an encyclopedia, so they have a duty to give some kind of explanation.

[Head Wreck]

emo is the spawn of a really bad digestive movement after a booze and curry binge a jehovas witness emparted on.

ever seen the class of nukem high? thats how it spread

it is evil and i call on all of the faithfull to rally and strike at the heart of this evil, for today is the day my brothers that the lord head wreck has commanded me to bring a crusade to the earth to rid us of this moral plague. amen!

[Paper Hearts]

emo is the spawn of a really bad digestive movement after a booze and curry binge a jehovas witness emparted on.

ever seen the class of nukem high?  thats how it spread

it is evil and i call on all of the faithfull to rally and strike at the heart of this evil, for today is the day my brothers that the lord head wreck has commanded me to bring a crusade to the earth to rid us of this moral plague. amen!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Finally, someone who is where I'm at on Emo.

[Msterbeau]

I just find the whole name/genre funny. As if nobody but them is emotional....

[JaneDead]

as far as "emo" goes i really like "emo gangsta rap" like nwa.

i know this was about "emo rock" though and i really don't know too much about that.

[Blackmail]

Here, here's another source (beyond Wikpedia) that also backs what I'm saying. This source is just a brief and general overview of rock history, but it's not as brief as Wikpedia.

This is for the homepage:

http://www.scaruffi.com/history/index.html

And this is for the chapter that includes bands like Fugazi:

http://www.scaruffi.com/history/cpt420.html

Beyond listening to the music since the 80s and not being able to draw more than the slightest, most meaningless correlation between Fugazi and what is popularly called "Emo" today, you'll not find any link between today's "Emo" and Fugazi (or any other band from their genre) anywhere. Wikpedia is using some abstract terms...and it's probably thrown a few people off. But the fact is, the people at Wikpedia aren't willing to allow today's "Emo" sponsorship either...but emo is a thing, and they are an encyclopedia, so they have a duty to give some kind of explanation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If anything, i think bands like AFI, The GEt up Kids, etc are using the term emo wrong, but the cats out of the bag now, there's no going back. Emo is what they call it even if it has nothing to do with the original spirit of emo.

[Paper Hearts]

I just find the whole name/genre funny.  As if nobody but them is emotional....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactly. I guess Herman's Hermits were Emo too. Oh wait. What about blues? that's emotional too. Blues is Emo, all of it. And country? Yep. all Emo. JS Bach? Wow. we're all Emo kids and we had no idea.

[phee]

Kraftwerk isn't that emotional

[Paper Hearts]

If anything, i think bands like AFI, The GEt up Kids, etc are using the term emo wrong, but the cats out of the bag now, there's no going back.  Emo is what they call it even if it has nothing to do with the original spirit of emo.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes. Emo does not mean the same thing it meant in the days of emocore. What Emo has come to mean bears no resemblence to that. It's just a coincidence in names. How besides in the most round about way does a band like Minor Threat ever come to My Chemical Romance?

[Guest Game of Chance]

If Ian MacKay thought he was responsible for what people call Emo, today, he'd off himself quickly.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm not so sure about that. Have you listened to The Evens?

[Guest Game of Chance]

Yes. Emo does not mean the same thing it meant in the days of emocore. What Emo has come to mean bears no resemblence to that. It's just a coincidence in names. How besides in the most round about way does a band like Minor Threat ever come to My Chemical Romance?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Minor Threat was never even mentioned. You're getting bent out of shape over nothing.

The whole point of the original article was that there were more than a few bands in DC during the mid-80s that were sick of the hardcore punk scene. They invented a new style, and someone slapped the label emocore on it.

Later, in weak attempts to capitalize on the originality of these early bands, several generic sounding band made the term emo a househould word.

[Paper Hearts]

I'm not so sure about that.  Have you listened to The Evens?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have. You introduced me to them. And while I'd say that by some twisted reasoning, one could relate the Evens with Husker Du if they had to, I just can't put them with System of a Down.

[Guest Game of Chance]

I would put them closer to a band like Bright Eyes.

[Paper Hearts]

Minor Threat was never even mentioned.  You're getting bent out of shape over nothing. 

The whole point of the original article was that there were more than a few bands in DC during the mid-80s that were sick of the hardcore punk scene.  They invented a new style, and someone slapped the label emocore on it. 

Later, in weak attempts to capitalize on the originality of these early bands, several generic sounding band made the term emo a househould word.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Right, well what I'm reffering to when I use the word emo, at the top of this thread, is the household version. I just feel a responsibility to define the parameters of how I'm speaking about emo, because you seem to think I'm talking about post-hardcore and a couple others think I'm talking about any music that has ever been emotional.