Are we so small in the universe?

[kellygrrrrrl]

a big set up?

Maybe

or maybe god was naive to think that humans could be GOOD....?

I am using the word "good" in a big meaning.

[BrassFusion]

Creationism in the literal sense bothers me.  There are two options and let's logic through them:

1)  God is omniscient.  This means that God knows everything: past, present, and future.  Given this, God knows that he's going to create humanity sometime.  He also knows that Eve is going to eat that apple.  He also knows that he will get pissed, therefore condemning all of humanity to hell, unless they follow a specific set of rules in order to come back to him.  He also knows (in advance, mind you) that the vast majority of humanity will not believe in him or follow his rules.  Therefore, he will have to send the vast majority of humanity to hell.  So, God knows all of this in advance.  Therefore, God is an asshole.

2) God is not omniscient.  Then even he is ignorant of what else could be out there and is not worthy of praise or belief.

Keep in mind that I am only arguing the literal belief in creationism.  I have no problems with the symbolic belief that many Christians hold.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I myself waffle between those two possibilities. That's why I'm a secularist, except I think that if god is not omniscient, he still would've created a great deal of stuff and still deserves worship. Y'know, if he exists.

Only thing is, I wouldn't worship any god that would send me to hell for not worshipping him. I'd rather go to hell.

[HipsterDufus]

a big set up?

Maybe

or maybe god was naive to think that humans could be GOOD....?

I am using the word "good" in a big meaning.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But if he's omniscient, then he already knows that they won't be.

[kellygrrrrrl]

well at leaste he's giving us the opportunity to re-deem what is the inevitable.....

I like you.

Your interesting.

[torn asunder]

or maybe god was naive to think that humans could be GOOD....?

i find this funny (not laughing at you kelly) just the thought that an omniscient god could be naive... :whistling

[HipsterDufus]

well at leaste he's giving us the opportunity to re-deem what is the inevitable.....

I like you.

Your interesting.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You're not so bad yourself.

I can't claim to know what your beliefs are, so I guess I'd be curious to know if you believe in hell. Because if you take hell out of the picture, that changes the argument quite a bit and I could see the literal interpretation of God creating earth (and still caring about us) working a lot better.

[kellygrrrrrl]

the universe isnt without flaw.

how could he have thought we could be without flaw..

except for me of course! :erm :whistling :laughing

I just wonder how long it took between GOD told no apple, and acyually taking an apple...or whatever it was.

a week?

2 weeks?

if it's anything like my mother telling me not to take a cookie...it wouldv'e been 5 minutes.

[phee]

disobedience, greed, selfishness....

all forms of bad character....

which we just pass down to each generation which just gets worse on a bigger scale...

see a trend?

you only do what we have been taught.

we in essence have inherited "sin".

we do it because it's what we know.

Human nature....

we want what we can't have.

Bad character according to whom?

God?

How would we know what it would assume these traits to be?

[HipsterDufus]

Well, according to what I was taught, God did create the universe to be perfect. Originally, it was "heaven." It was Eve's mistake that corrupted the whole thing. According to what I was taught, to create an imperfect universe to begin with would mean that God was imperfect, which is at odds with the bible itself.

<sigh> So many logical inconsistencies with literal interpretations of the bible.

[kellygrrrrrl]

you don't find those things to be of bad character?

you don't find destruction in those characteristics?

[Steven]

She was quoting "Invader Zim"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

and I was quoting my wee wee

[kellygrrrrrl]

my take on Hell?

Well, it goes along with the logic of the christians....not most though.

Hell is simply your grave.

Your death...unconciousness.

life with out god.

from dust we are and dust we return

"The dead know nothing . . . In the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom." psalms.....somewhere...

Gehenna (hell fire) occurs several times in the Christian Greek Scriptures, and it refers to the valley of Hinnom, outside the walls of Jerusealem. When Jesus was on earth, this valley was used as a garbage dump, where the dead bodies of criminals, and the carcasses of animals, and every other kind of filth was cast." the lake of fire symbolizes eternal destrution. Death and Hades are "hurled into" it in that they will be done away with when mankind is freed from sin and the condemnation of death. Willful, unrepentant sinners will also have their "portion" in that lake.

more symbolic than anythhing

Hell is not literally a firey burning inferno.

it's just your grave.

Like the story of JOB he begged god to go to "hell" rather than suffer theway he did.

Ducks and Covers

[phee]

you don't find those things to be of bad character?

you don't find destruction in those characteristics?

I am not asking about me personally.... that doesn't matter... I am asking you what a being capable of creating a vast universe with billions and billions of galaxies would perscribe as good and bad traits to beings that will have only been around for a millionth of a blink of an eye....

You said (and I am paraphrazing) that we have upset said creature, to the point of needing to redeem ourselves in it's eyes... how do we know what it wants?

[HipsterDufus]

So, what does a person have to do in order to get into heaven, then? (Poor Kelly, she has to deal with Phee and I both at the same time.)

[Steven]

you really believe that, in the vastness of the universe, which for all practical purposes to our limited minds is infinite, that we're the only sentient, self-conscious life in all of it, just because we've never seen anyone/thing else? if you believe in god (which i know you do) how can you think he/she/it is so small and limited in thinking that this little rock is the only place that he/she/it would create life!? that actually makes me sad...  =(

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

because I beleive that is one of the unique attributes of God.....that he does things in ways that we simply would not.....and he makes this clear over and over again that his ways have nothign to do with human logic and ideals...

and so yes, I beleive he placed his focus right here, and jsut here. I dont think it has anything to do with limited thinking. I think it has to do with singular intention.

But you see folded up in all of that is my beleif about mediation, and the purpose of the Cross, and the sacrifice of Christ and all of that......seems a bit out of his charecter to do all of that, when he has so many other Cosmic plan B options available at his disposal.....just doesent seem consistent to me. But then again foundationally I draw from other things.....

[phee]

because I beleive that is one of the unique attributes of God.....that he does things in ways that we simply would not.....and he makes this clear over and over again that his ways have nothign to do with human logic and ideals...

and so yes, I beleive he placed his focus right here, and jsut here.  I dont think it has anything to do with limited thinking.  I think it has to do with singular intention.

But you see folded up in all of that is my beleif about mediation, and the purpose of the Cross, and the sacrifice of Christ and all of that......seems a bit out of his charecter to do all of that, when he has so many other Cosmic plan B options available at his disposal.....just doesent seem consistent to me.  But then again foundationally I draw from other things.....

So how do we know what it's will is? or if it's even their or cares?

[kellygrrrrrl]

honestly, That is the same blank I am drawing Phee.

I don't know.

It just makes sense that being selfish, greedy, disobedient has its consequences.

and it does.

maybe not directly but in the long run yes.

If all is correct and we are suppose to live "Forever" - then any form of these traits could be bad.

On a big scale

even the smallest form of disobedience on this scale, is not without consequence.

[The_Dark]

Just to keep it going... Where exactly does it say you go to hell in the Bible? Someone find me where it says that. I've read the Bible over and over... can;t find it. Hell is where Lucifer was tossed after the fall... and even he is allowed to leave any time he wants... actually... lets get really nit picky.. Find me the Aramaic word for Soul. If you can.. I'll give you every bit of cash I make this year. Infact.. find me the Arabic word for soul as it was spoken in Biblical times....

Ok, more to the point... There isn't a place in the Bible thats says people go to hell. There was also no word for Soul in Biblical times because "the soul" was NOT part of thier beleif system... That word was added by the Greeks (who did beleive in a soul)

This is one of those things that moderen Christians just don;t know.. for the select few that do know.. we are asked not to talk about it.

[phee]

Just to keep it going... Where exactly does it say you go to hell in the Bible? Someone find me where it says that. I've read the Bible over and over... can;t find it. Hell is where Lucifer was tossed after the fall... and even he is allowed to leave any time he wants... actually... lets get really nit picky.. Find me the Aramaic word for Soul. If you can.. I'll give you every bit of cash I make this year. Infact.. find me the Arabic word for soul as it was spoken in Biblical times....

Ok, more to the point... There isn't a place in the Bible thats says people go to hell. There was also no word for Soul in Biblical times because "the soul" was NOT part of thier beleif system... That word was added by the Greeks (who did beleive in a soul)

This is one of those things that moderen Christians just don;t know.. for the select few that do know.. we are asked not to talk about it.

Interesting

[The_Dark]

The Bible never says you have to worship God to get into heaven. There is only one requirment that is directly stated... Beleive. Not worship... but beleive... deep un-questioning beleif.

You also have to be one of the 13 Tribes of Isreal... (that means Jewish) again.. another thing people seem to have missed or forgotten.

[kellygrrrrrl]

I don't get upset at any of this.

I find this to a very interesting conversation

There is no dealing with Phee or Hipster....

Just good conversation. =)

[The_Dark]

God gave Man and Woman one gift above all others. Choice. We can choose to beleive or not. What we are going to choose is the one thing he/she/it doesn;t know. He knows exactly what will happen no matter what choice is made... just not what the coice is going to be.

[Msterbeau]

Does where we go in the afterlife matter ... relative to how we feel in the universe in this life?

I'm just asking...

Seems like this is wandering off-topic, but I can see how spirituality can influence your opinion.

[kellygrrrrrl]

God gave Man and Woman one gift above all others. Choice. We can choose to beleive or not. What we are going to choose is the one thing he/she/it doesn;t know. He knows exactly what will happen no matter what choice is made... just not what the coice is going to be.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

yes

[BrassFusion]

God gave Man and Woman one gift above all others. Choice. We can choose to beleive or not. What we are going to choose is the one thing he/she/it doesn;t know. He knows exactly what will happen no matter what choice is made... just not what the coice is going to be.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I cannot choose to believe. How could anyone?