Are we so small in the universe?

[Steven]

Are you a fundamentalist Kelly? IE, that literally all of the sins of the universe can be blamed on one female?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

this is a misconceived fundamentalist understanding.

a breif explanation:

A) all sin entered the world thru Man's desire to be God-like, to usurp his designated place of authority in pusuit of that which was not rightfully his, such as what was done with Lucifer (see the prophesy against the king of Tyre for reference)

B) the true blame lies on Adam. Look at the biblical text. Eve ate the forbidden fruit first, then found her husband and he ate. It was not until AFTER Adam ate, that their sin nature took on the physical manifestation of shame and they attempted to cover their nakedness from God.

Why? Why not right away when Eve ate?

Because Eve was subordinate to Adam in the spiritual heirchy before God, and because Adam was responsible for the spiritual health and outcome fo the family unit. MAN - failed. Adam could have perhaps interceded for his wife, or pleaded for mercy, etc. He instead chose to follow her activity, then blamed her in his own weakness before God. But nobody expereinced the sin until after Adam ate.

Men - lead your families goddammit

[HipsterDufus]

I think it's time to chuck some humor into the mix, as I think this conversation would be better carried out in real life since it has so many small nuances.

I found this on my grandpa's wall in his rec. room downstairs.

Why worry?

Either you are healthy or you are sick

If you are healthy, you have nothing to worry about

If you are sick, then you have two things to worry about

Either you will get better or you will die

If you get better, you have nothing to worry about

If you die, then you have two things to worry about

Either you will go to heaven or you will go to hell

If you go to heaven, you have nothing to worry about

If you go to hell, you'll be so busy shaking hands with friends, you won't have time to worry

:grin

[Steven]

I agree completely.

The hard part is trying to find that deeper meaning for our own lives...  I don't really know even where to start at the moment.  I've developed such a critical mindset that I can pretty much discredit any system of belief as soon as its brought up.  Then again, they say belief can come from personal experience.  Maybe I just haven't experienced anything to make me believe in one particular path.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

it does (come from personal experience)

[kellygrrrrrl]

this is a misconceived fundamentalist understanding.

a breif explanation:

A)  all sin entered the world thru Man's desire to be God-like, to usurp his designated place of authority in pusuit of that which was not rightfully his, such as what was done with Lucifer (see the prophesy against the king of Tyre for reference)

B)  the true blame lies on Adam.  Look at the biblical text.  Eve ate the forbidden fruit first, then found her husband and he ate.  It was not until AFTER Adam ate, that their sin nature took on the physical manifestation of shame and they attempted to cover their nakedness from God. 

Why?  Why not right away when Eve ate? 

Because Eve was subordinate to Adam in the spiritual heirchy before God, and because Adam was responsible for the spiritual health and outcome fo the family unit.  MAN - failed.  Adam could have perhaps interceded for his wife, or pleaded for mercy, etc.  He instead chose to follow her activity, then blamed her in his own weakness before God.  But nobody expereinced the sin until after Adam ate. 

Men - lead your families goddammit

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

thanks for elaborating that!

I wouldve struggled all day for words.

[HipsterDufus]

it does (come from personal experience)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's what I'm having a hard time with. I can logically argue virtually any point, but (unfortunately), I don't have any experience to generate belief within myslef.

[Steven]

Was hevan supposed to be a paradise?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Earth was supposed to be a paradise, heaven a dwelling place for the Divine, and God and Man, before the fall, had daily interaction in the garden, as God would "walk with man during the breezy part of the day...."

Incidently the book of Revelations gives reason to beelive that God will once again restore the earth to a paradise state fro mankind to dwell in....how that intertwines with heaven I have no idea. Heaven as well, is to be re-created.

[kellygrrrrrl]

That's what I'm having a hard time with.  I can logically argue virtually any point, but (unfortunately), I don't have any experience to generate belief within myslef.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

look around you!

Look at how kittens make you laugh

look how babies smile

look how big and vast the universe is.

tell me you can't see absolute love in all of that.

It's hard to see because of the circumstances we live in, but with hope....there is faith

I don't know what I am suppose to do, but I have SOME hope.

a little.

a tiny bit.

<> <-----this much

[Steven]

I myself waffle between those two possibilities. That's why I'm a secularist, except I think that if god is not omniscient, he still would've created a great deal of stuff and still deserves worship. Y'know, if he exists.

Only thing is, I wouldn't worship any god that would send me to hell for not worshipping him. I'd rather go to hell.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

ah.....well done Brass well done. I'm enjoying your thoughts here.....

I do think that hell in and of itself is another thread to be explored......

[Steven]

well at leaste he's giving us the opportunity to re-deem what is the inevitable.....

I like you.

Your interesting.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

and although we find this difficult to accept and compartmentalize, there is the chance that this re-deeming opportunity is the only available option for free willed creatures that are not God. And so he did it anyway.....

[phee]

Why do some people get upset with the idea that God (or the Universe, or what have you) may actually not be perfect/just/mature... that we live in a reflection of something imperfect?

That actually comforts me more than the "everything happens for a reason" idea

[Steven]

Bad character according to whom?

God?

How would we know what it would assume these traits to be?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

ahhhh the philisophical approach.

because then we must define and agree on Good, Bad, etc........

whcih leads us back to the hated absolute, eithger accepted, or vehemently denied. this to me, is further evidence of the genius of God.

[kellygrrrrrl]

Why do some people get upset with the idea that God (or the Universe, or what have you) may actually not be perfect/just/mature... that we live in a reflection of something imperfect?

That actually comforts me more than the "everything happens for a reason" idea

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree

[phee]

From what I have seen... there are no absolutes.... not visible to me any way. I have never seen anything that is without exception

[Steven]

my take on Hell?

Well, it goes along with the logic of the christians....not most though.

Hell is simply your grave.

Your death...unconciousness.

life with out god.

from dust we are and dust we return

"The dead know nothing . . . In the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom." psalms.....somewhere...

Gehenna (hell fire) occurs several times in the Christian Greek Scriptures, and it refers to the valley of Hinnom, outside the walls of Jerusealem. When Jesus was on earth, this valley was used as a garbage dump, where the dead bodies of criminals, and the carcasses of animals, and every other kind of filth was cast." the lake of fire symbolizes eternal destrution. Death and Hades are "hurled into" it in that they will be done away with when mankind is freed from sin and the condemnation of death. Willful, unrepentant sinners will also have their "portion" in that lake.

more symbolic than anythhing

Hell is not literally a firey burning inferno.

it's just your grave.

Like the story of JOB he begged god to go to "hell" rather than suffer theway he did.

Ducks and Covers

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

awesome.

this is one of the few things that I still partially hold onto Kelly, from my JW ways.

good job.

[Steven]

So how do we know what it's will is? or if it's even their or cares?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

this would take a degree of intentional seeking and interaction would it not????

I beleive that I know what God wants, from me.

Kelly's walk for example, is her own, I have no rights to it, I can only support her in it and walk alongside of it if she so chooses......but her own salvation and purpose must be revealed to her individually.

[Steven]

Just to keep it going... Where exactly does it say you go to hell in the Bible? Someone find me where it says that. I've read the Bible over and over... can;t find it. Hell is where Lucifer was tossed after the fall... and even he is allowed to leave any time he wants... actually... lets get really nit picky.. Find me the Aramaic word for Soul. If you can.. I'll give you every bit of cash I make this year. Infact.. find me the Arabic word for soul as it was spoken in Biblical times....

Ok, more to the point... There isn't a place in the Bible thats says people go to hell. There was also no word for Soul in Biblical times because "the soul" was NOT part of thier beleif system... That word was added by the Greeks (who did beleive in a soul)

This is one of those things that moderen Christians just don;t know.. for the select few that do know.. we are asked not to talk about it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

your impressing me. I'm digging this.

the word for soul is actually applied to men and creatures in general. in essence, "lives" can be translated to "souls" there is some new testament eveidence however that bears some research.....The Bible likewise does not use the word "Trinity" although the trinitarian beleif (one which I support and accept) is gleaned from the various attributes used to describe the indescribable: God.

Similar words are also misapplied and misunderstood, such as worship and holiness. Do the homework, see where it leads you. Mark you are F'ing cool....

[Steven]

Just to keep it going... Where exactly does it say you go to hell in the Bible? Someone find me where it says that. I've read the Bible over and over... can;t find it. Hell is where Lucifer was tossed after the fall... and even he is allowed to leave any time he wants... actually... lets get really nit picky.. Find me the Aramaic word for Soul. If you can.. I'll give you every bit of cash I make this year. Infact.. find me the Arabic word for soul as it was spoken in Biblical times....

Ok, more to the point... There isn't a place in the Bible thats says people go to hell. There was also no word for Soul in Biblical times because "the soul" was NOT part of thier beleif system... That word was added by the Greeks (who did beleive in a soul)

This is one of those things that moderen Christians just don;t know.. for the select few that do know.. we are asked not to talk about it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

By the way I fear no one and talk about anything I want.

if any religion or spiritual leader tries to take this freedom from you, he/she/they are false.

I'm also not afraid to admit that sometimes I just dont know.....

[HipsterDufus]

Why do some people get upset with the idea that God (or the Universe, or what have you) may actually not be perfect/just/mature... that we live in a reflection of something imperfect?

That actually comforts me more than the "everything happens for a reason" idea

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What we've typically been discussing is the Christian view of it. I was basically arguing a point against literal Christianity which does, in fact, state that God is perfect.

If you look at many of the other religions, such as Norse Paganism, they have a very different set of beliefs about their gods (a lot of the times, Odin is just a plain jerk).

I don't know; I don't really believe in anything right now and I don't foresee any personal epiphanies coming anytime soon.

[Steven]

The Bible never says you have to worship God to get into heaven. There is only one requirment that is directly stated... Beleive. Not worship... but beleive... deep un-questioning beleif.

You also have to be one of the 13 Tribes of Isreal... (that means Jewish) again.. another thing people seem to have missed or forgotten.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

ok, now were butting heads.

you'll have to disregard the gentile provision from the new testament and the rebuke of Peter (from the original 12) by Paul to sell this notion.

[Steven]

thanks for elaborating that!

I wouldve struggled all day for words.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I havent seen you struggle one bit in this topic Kelly, I'm having a good time reading your psots....

[Steven]

That's what I'm having a hard time with.  I can logically argue virtually any point, but (unfortunately), I don't have any experience to generate belief within myslef.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cry Out. I mean it.

[BrassFusion]

look around you!

Look at how kittens make you laugh

look how babies smile

look how big and vast the universe is.

tell me you can't see absolute love in all of that.

It's hard to see because of the circumstances we live in, but with hope....there is faith

I don't know what I am suppose to do, but I have SOME hope.

a little.

a tiny bit.

<>  <-----this much

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't see how love and joy prove the existence of a higher power, much less a christian god in particular.

And I thought *I* was the optimistic one in this discussion. Or maybe that was the thread this spun off from. I forget.

I'm optimistic because I believe that the love and joy are products of our own perception- that we CONTROL them and they're not meted out to us by a god that may or may not be omniscient or an asshole.

[The_Dark]

People choose to beleive or not everyday. Millions of them.

[The_Dark]

you'll have to disregard the gentile provision from the new testament and the rebuke of Peter (from the original 12) by Paul to sell this notion.

and you'll have to disregard Revalations

[Steven]

and you'll have to disregard Revalations

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cool.

Give me a hint.

Sounds like your going to make me go back and do my homework tonight....(remember too that context is key on either side of the argument)