Are we so small in the universe?

[phee]

i'm still trying to figure out why people have this inane idea that they *must* be separate from deity. separation is the single biggest inhibitor to peace on earth - i mean, once people truly and whole-heartedly realize we're all one in "the source" (god, if you will) how could we fight/hate/kill each other? when i look at people i try to imagine who it is that looks out from behind their eyes, and i realize it's the same thing that sees from behind mine, we just are looking through different "filters". that essence, that "spirit" that infuses us with life knows no separation - it is the thing from which all life springs, and as such, how could it hate itself? life is created out of love, and flows from it, which i guess is why i don't understand most people - they hate, and they separate, and they lead secluded "i'm-safe-in-my-little-world" lives without ever making the connection. it makes me sad... =(

God must hate itself

[torn asunder]

by definition faith is belief that does not rest on logic, proof, or evidence. if you have no logic proof or evidence how is it anything but blind?

wow... interesting!

[HipsterDufus]

I wish people could just admit that they don't know and move on... And I am not splitting hairs with belief here... I KNOW that I don't have enough information to make a judgement one way or another.... and I BELIEVE it to...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's where I'm at.

[Gauge]

i'm still trying to figure out why people have this inane idea that they *must* be separate from deity. separation is the single biggest inhibitor to peace on earth - i mean, once people truly and whole-heartedly realize we're all one in "the source" (god, if you will) how could we fight/hate/kill each other? when i look at people i try to imagine who it is that looks out from behind their eyes, and i realize it's the same thing that sees from behind mine, we just are looking through different "filters". that essence, that "spirit" that infuses us with life knows no separation - it is the thing from which all life springs, and as such, how could it hate itself? life is created out of love, and flows from it, which i guess is why i don't understand most people - they hate, and they separate, and they lead secluded "i'm-safe-in-my-little-world" lives without ever making the connection. it makes me sad... =(

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

you are so deep

[Steven]

That's the problem with intuition though... there are no checks and balances that fact and such provide.... my intuition could be telling me to choke babies because I believe that god wants me to... maybe he tells me they are demons...

If you ask yourself, why did mankind create religion? That may shed some light on this need.... to explain what cannot be...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

your right, there is no checks and balances.

and I hope that I dont come off as always having an intuitive escape hatch, because thats not my intention.

And I agree with you on yoru mankind creating relgion idea, I go along with that pretty easily, I just dont disregard god, and that there maybe a "way" after all, and that in the middle of all thsi mess and confusion, there may even be truth.

as for the choking of babies....thats kind of obvious aint it?

All I can tell you Phee is that there are many forms of evidence, and many forms of gathering. We dont know each other well enough yet....but despite my many flaws there are some consistencies that weave there way throughout my life. Years ago i started looking for people who seemd to live life well.....and I'm not talking about $$$, I'm talking about security, solid relationships, problem solving abilities, leadership, influence, charactor, honor, transparancy, consistency, intimacy, passion, steadfastness, joy, vision, creativity, strength, humility, etc etc etc.....I started looking for package deals, especially among men as role models, because I did not beleive they even existed.

I was wrong. And I fouond some common threads, and a common foundation, which led me to where I am now, within this faith.

to be thoroughly Christ-like.....it's just not easy man, it covers a very wide range and demands a high degree of accountability.

[Steven]

by definition faith is belief that does not rest on logic, proof, or evidence. if you have no logic proof or evidence how is it anything but blind?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

see my answer to Phee.....

and I have to run soon, but I'll try to put into words why I do beleive later tonight.

[HipsterDufus]

i'm still trying to figure out why people have this inane idea that they *must* be separate from deity. separation is the single biggest inhibitor to peace on earth - i mean, once people truly and whole-heartedly realize we're all one in "the source" (god, if you will) how could we fight/hate/kill each other? when i look at people i try to imagine who it is that looks out from behind their eyes, and i realize it's the same thing that sees from behind mine, we just are looking through different "filters". that essence, that "spirit" that infuses us with life knows no separation - it is the thing from which all life springs, and as such, how could it hate itself? life is created out of love, and flows from it, which i guess is why i don't understand most people - they hate, and they separate, and they lead secluded "i'm-safe-in-my-little-world" lives without ever making the connection. it makes me sad... =(

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I definitely agree with this as well.

[Gauge]

see my answer to Phee.....

and I have to run soon, but I'll try to put into words why I do beleive later tonight.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

saw it. but why look for those qualities in others, why not create them within yourself.

cool later.

[Steven]

i think mankind created religion as a way to bond with others, granted it backfired but still. you can have nothing in common with the person sitting next to you untill you see that theyre wearing a cross/pentagram/jewish star and you immediately have a connection, you feel that you have someone who understands you. theres also the need like you said for some to explain what they dont understand

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

a gentle challenge to this form of thought:

Did Jesus - feel that natural bond with his peers and students?

Did his followers - understand his teachings exponentially?

is there any biblical evidence of frustration on the part of Christ?

Did the learned spiritual authority of the time within his Judaistic background - have any natrual affinity for him and find comforting parralels of beleif?

and finnally, how did Christ himself feel about religion? Did he approve of it? Support it? Re-direct back to it?

[kellygrrrrrl]

In my own research...I have found enough evidence to belive and know rather than guess and have blind faith.

I know there is a GOD.

Knowing this information doesn't give me any comfort by any means though let me tell you.

In fact, this is the exact reason I say Ignornce is bliss.

When you know and know the right way and don't want to do it for your own selfish reason whatever it may be - which is the reason most will stray away in the 1st place. We want to justify our actions and think it is ok...and will find someone or something that will make us feel otherwise and or agree with what is said to be wrong....we find loopholes and think oh well...this is ok cause...and we don't want to hear different.

Nobody wants to be wrong....everyone feels entitled to do whatever they want......take that is it is, but when we do whatever we want....we know destruction is to follow....(I guess the word Kharma could be used here...in a sense)

Even if we really know its not right.

This is were sects and cults come in and twist things up and reword things and "translate it" to our likings...or interpret it to what we want to coinside with what WE believe...not what we should believe....We hate to be TOLD to do anything...disagree?

I think at one time there was ONE religion.

but theres always someone who wants to think that "Though shall not steal"

see George Carlin on that one.....is not a valid rule....

We can steal as long as ....

and that person will reason as to why it IS ok. Then they say Follow me....THIS is how we should learn about God.

as far as I know there are 10 commandments

10 simple rules.

but most of them have loopholes by todays standards.

Sure I say thee things......but as far as what GOD thinks of me? I don't know. I agree with Steven...I'll probably be left behind....to face the great tribulations....hopefully I pass the test of life?

I don't actively act "Christain...I am full of sin...I have my earthly desires....I feel bad, I catch my mistakes, I try not to repeat and move on.....

I'm rambling sorry.....

[Gauge]

a gentle challenge to this form of thought:

Did Jesus - feel that natural bond with his peers and students?

Did his followers - understand his teachings exponentially?

is there any biblical evidence of frustration on the part of Christ?

Did the learned spiritual authority of the time within his Judaistic background - have any natrual affinity for him and find comforting parralels of beleif?

and finnally, how did Christ himself feel about religion?  Did he approve of it?  Support it?  Re-direct back to it?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

the only thing i can say on this

the only "proof" to anything on jesus is the bible

the bible is man made

so, imo, if you are following the teachings of the bible to prove what you believe in then your not following christ, your following your fellow man.

if your following your fellow man and making a religion out of it then your treating them as tho they were god.

if you can treat some old guy translating a book as god why not be your own god?

just a question

[phee]

a gentle challenge to this form of thought:

Did Jesus - feel that natural bond with his peers and students?

Did his followers - understand his teachings exponentially?

is there any biblical evidence of frustration on the part of Christ?

Did the learned spiritual authority of the time within his Judaistic background - have any natrual affinity for him and find comforting parralels of beleif?

and finnally, how did Christ himself feel about religion?  Did he approve of it?  Support it?  Re-direct back to it?

That's the thing... we have no idea who Jesus was or what he was about in any way... He (theoretically) spoke in Arameic... which was spoken for about 200 years from person to person... and eventually written down in Greek... then translated to Latin... then later that latin was translated into German... then English... then a Different form of English... so over the course of 2000 years, what has been changed? the simple answer: EVERYTHING... ever play a game of "telephone" that is one word... in one language... with almost no politcal spin.... and it comes out totally different... Now multiply that by 2000 years and add peoples personal politics into the equation...

And all of this is assuming that the divinity was there with jesus to begin with... and that divinity is what we think it is... and that divinity exists to begin with.... all of these things make any clear picture of what is going on... impossible

[Steven]

That's the thing... we have no idea who Jesus was or what he was about in any way... He (theoretically) spoke in Arameic... which was spoken for about 200 years from person to person... and eventually written down in Greek... then translated to Latin... then later that latin was translated into German... then English... then a Different form of English... so over the course of 2000 years, what has been changed? the simple answer: EVERYTHING... ever play a game of "telephone" that is one word... in one language... with almost no politcal spin.... and it comes out totally different... Now multiply that by 2000 years and add peoples personal politics into the equation...

And all of this is assuming that the divinity was there with jesus to begin with... and that divinity is what we think it is... and that divinity exists to begin with.... all of these things make any clear picture of what is going on... impossible

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

let's do a comparison then.

the telephone argument....I've heard that many times before.

all I can offer you is a few thigns to consider such as:

A) written texts, based on traditionally oral communications, were standard for the times. The 200 year grace period between verbal to written form is/was also standard to the times. Science in its pursuit of other ancient documentation - including texts describing historical accounts, and documetns that were nto intended to be of a strictly religeous nature, aceepts the 200 year period as being very accurate in light of what is traditionaly handd down. Of all the ancient manuscripts fo any sort that have been studied, it seems that Biblical cannons are the only ones called to question in this way. I suggest that it is the divisevness of the subject matter within the thests that warrents this scrutiny. This scrutiny however - is not applied en masse to other ancient manuscripts.

B) let's take a step back and look at oral tradions - specifically - Old Testament writings. What do you know abou the ancient Hebrew traditions regarding this? For a young Hebrew to be considered by a Rabbi - he must have first been able to recite the ancient writings in extremely detailed accuracy, or he was set aside. the leveites in particular were masters of this. There was no flippancy or acceptabel margin for error - remember - these were a people that would not even speak the personal name of God aloud and who beleived in the power of spoken curses, blessing for the firstborn, and spiritual bindings. They took verbal communication on a spiritual level extremely seriously - it was no game of telephone. What Christ encountered during his day, and what he himself shared with the chief priests in the temple as a child himself - was within this strict tradition. This is somehting that is virtually never brought to light and is therefore disrespected by dismissal. It paints a vacancy that did not really exist.

C) of the ancient manuscripts that have been found, for example texts found in the Dead Sea Scrolls - that evidence of changes within the text's translation does not exist. So far - what science has found - copies of copies of copies of biblical texts, do not twist and turn in translational oversights or changes. They are in fact incredibly consistent. Again - I refer back to the culture and reverance for the written word considered divine.

D) I'm glad you made the point about people's personal politics entering into the writings. This si a very good point, and is exemplified in the four Gospels. Four different writers, four different social standings, four different sets of focal points within the same story. What youa re witnessing - are important points of views based on the writers perception. But the story remains the same. The context - the message - the ministry of the texts do not conflict in the manner in which has been suggested by many people.

E) as for not knowing Jesus or of his existence - he was written about by others, such as the historian Josephus. Again you'll find remarkable consistency in what is described. Other ancient leaders, such as say, Marc ANthony, or Tiberius, are also unknown to us save for ancient writings and archeological finds. But we do not deny them their existence, because their "supposed" words and beleifs do not divide us. I find it disturbing that we do not apply the same dismissive principles to a man named Yeshuah that we do to other ancients.

[Steven]

saw it. but why look for those qualities in others, why not create them within yourself.

cool later.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

that's what I'm doing Gauge.

but humans never create somethign out of nothing, we always draw from something - you cant just wish yourself to have certain qualities that you do not yet understand in depth or have not have had modeled for you. In this case, the qualities I described above, I have explored and studied through my faith and through mentors and peers.

[phee]

I never questioned jesus's existence I questioned his divinity.... if you will read the above post...

I also excluded other ancient documents because no one brought up other religions as fact...

More to come... hy honey wants the 'puter

[Steven]

I never questioned jesus's existence I questioned his divinity.... if you will read the above post...

I also excluded other ancient documents because no one brought up other religions as fact...

More to come... hy honey wants the 'puter

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

cool.

I misunderstood. I shall re-read.....

I admit aht I cannot in all fairness - impose allegations of FACT in terms of religion.

all I can say is that for ME......this is the real McCoy.

[Gauge]

you cant just wish yourself to have certain qualities that you do not yet understand in depth or have not have had modeled for you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

sure you can. every day i will myself to have sertain qualities or for things to change, many of wich i mold for myself, and ya know what, it workes. to quote a certain dr. youll see it when you believe it.

[torn asunder]

that's what I'm doing Gauge.

but humans never create somethign out of nothing, we always draw from something - you cant just wish yourself to have certain qualities that you do not yet understand in depth or have not have had modeled for you.  In this case, the qualities I described above, I have explored and studied through my faith and through mentors and peers.

i'd have to disagree with the idea that we can't just wish yourself to have certain qualities. i think kindness and love are our nature, and even if one has never been exposed to them, i think they can teach themselves to behave in that manner, almost like an instinct...

[Steven]

in depth, for me (me) was the key eord here. there have been many things on the surface that are easy to recognize, sure, but to de-program certain negatives, while intilling real working alternatives, I have no problem stating that i've needed the help.

some people go to shrinks, some people go to ant-depressants, some people go to Oprah, its a common human condition....to seek help and to self educate.

i suppose you could say that i chose my source after watching it modeled

(in terms of change) in others, i saw value and depth and a consistent resource and went from there.

[Homicidalheathen]

Yup. Small and impermanent so make it count like he said!

yes.

we are.

so small.

its just us out there......

I actually do beleive this.

better make it count while you can.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[HipsterDufus]

This thread has been very interesting to me; I've seen a lot of the same arguments before when I've talked with other Christians. I have no desire to disprove Steven's (or any other person's, for that matter) beliefs, because that would disprove his experiences. This is impossible.

What I have seen amongst the more Christian members here is some wiggle room when it comes to their beliefs. Whether it be heaven, hell, etc. What this means to me is that no one here is saying that they hold the one true belief regarding every aspect of Christianity. I find this comforting. At least we don't have any fundamentalists trying to tell us that the other Christians are going to hell.

As for myself (as I've mentioned before), I believe in my friends and family and being good to them/doing what's best for them. I know, it's not really a religion or a spirituality.

I also believe that there is some sort of "other-worldly" spark within me. What it is, I have no idea. I see it when I experience what I like to refer to as a "perfect moment." Whether it's listening to a great song, being with your lover, or just hanging out with your friends. Something about that moment sends a shiver down your spine and makes all of life's problems seem so small and distant. And, of course, it's totally indescribable. These moments are what make me want to believe in something greater. Unfortunately, no great truths have chosen to reveal themselves to me. So, in the meantime, I'm just going to enjoy the moments as they come and be grateful for them.

[phee]

This thread has been very interesting to me; I've seen a lot of the same arguments before when I've talked with other Christians.  I have no desire to disprove Steven's (or any other person's, for that matter) beliefs, because that would disprove his experiences.  This is impossible.

What I have seen amongst the more Christian members here is some wiggle room when it comes to their beliefs.  Whether it be heaven, hell, etc.  What this means to me is that no one here is saying that they hold the one true belief regarding every aspect of Christianity.  I find this comforting.  At least we don't have any fundamentalists trying to tell us that the other Christians are going to hell. 

As for myself (as I've mentioned before), I believe in my friends and family and being good to them/doing what's best for them.  I know, it's not really a religion or a spirituality. 

I also believe that there is some sort of "other-worldly" spark within me.  What it is, I have no idea.  I see it when I experience what I like to refer to as a "perfect moment."  Whether it's listening to a great song, being with your lover, or just hanging out with your friends.  Something about that moment sends a shiver down your spine and makes all of life's problems seem so small and distant.  And, of course, it's totally indescribable.  These  moments are what make me want to believe in something greater.  Unfortunately, no great truths have chosen to reveal themselves to me.  So, in the meantime, I'm just going to enjoy the moments as they come and be grateful for them.

Once again.... we are on the same page my friend

[HipsterDufus]

Once again.... we are on the same page my friend

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why does that not surprise me? =) Ah well, it's always good to know there's other people out there who don't mind admitting that they just don't "know."

[BrassFusion]

I know the feeling you talk about, the "special spark," but when I feel it, I don't feel compelled to believe anything in particular is causing it. It could be a web of spiritual energy just as easily as it could be a god.

[HipsterDufus]

I know the feeling you talk about, the "special spark," but when I feel it, I don't feel compelled to believe anything in particular is causing it. It could be a web of spiritual energy just as easily as it could be a god.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree that it could be anything. Hell, it could just be a random, pleasurable firing of synapses in my brain for all I know. I'd like to believe that it's something greater than me, but nothing has proven itself thus far...