The "faith" of an atheist

[sinmantyx]

So, I guess I didn't realize this, but I am part of one of the most hated groups in America. I forgot the specific statistics that were mentioned during "30 days" or how they were collected, but the picture was pretty clear. If I decide to self indentify as an atheist instead of an agnostic (or some other over-used term), many people are going to have a particular view of me that is unfavorable.

I used to be a Christian, in fact many people would have called me a zealot, because unlike most of the other Christians in my community, I actually believed in the Bible and wasn't just going with the flow. I was aware of the hypocrisies of the Church, and when I realized just how deep the brainwashing and manipulation went, I basically had a conversion experience. After years of getting through the fear of imaginary things and places, and being freed from my crushing burden for souls: at this point in my life, I can only really truely be described as an atheist.

My traditional Christian familiy is cut off from many aspects of my life. They will never be told about my sexuality. They will never be told the full extent of my views on religion. They will never know who I really am, because what I am would hurt them too much. At my Grandmother's funeral, I took communion, not because I was comfortable doing that, but because I didn't want my Grandmother's funeral to be all about rumors surrounding me and my "lack of faith".

You might say that I'm a coward, but I'm not going to be the daughter, aunt, or sister who is going to hell and won't be joining us in heaven.

They say that religion is the opiate of the masses, but I'll break it down: I think prayer is the placebo of the masses, that Jesus is the shared "imaginary friend" coping mechanism of the masses, and that organized religion is a means of oppression and political manipulation of large groups of people, pre-brainwashed and willing to die for made-up causes giving power to HUMAN BEINGS that pull the strings.

Human beings are human beings. If you are a hateful person, you are going to latch onto snippets of religious text that give you an excuse to hate. If you are a loving person, you are going to latch onto snippets of religious text that give you an excuse to be loving. If you are a judgemental person, you will latch onto snippets of religious text that give you an excuse to be judgemental. If you want to kill someone, you will latch onto snippets of religious text that give you an excuse to do that. If you are the type of person who needs a "structured environment" and "set rules" in order to function, you may just become a literalist.

Thing is: placebos do work miracles, the "imaginary friend" coping mechanism is sound and powerful, and churches as unifying social institutions and support systems do work wonders. I just wish it didn't usually come with the fear, lies, hyprocracy, indoctrination, emotional manipulation, isolationism, and oppression of decent.

I really enjoy the UU church that I go to now. In some ways, I almost feel strange mentioning it, because I'll come off as being evangelical....but maybe that's not neccesarily a bad thing. Obviously, my church is not devoid of the effects of human frailties, but at the very least I feel comfortable being myself there moreso than other churches and so do the theists and those with many different personal philosophies as myself.

My hubby always gets a kick out of mentioning that our minister is an openly gay Swedish-American atheistic Buddhist with a soft-spot for Judaism.

I guess if you hate gay Swedish-American atheistic Buddhists with a soft-spot for Judaism, you might feel a little strange. Oh well, can't make everyone happy all the time.

[phee]

Thankyou for posting this... I totally hear you and respect your story.... I find many viewpoints and parts in it very compelling....

Prayer for example.... only when I stopped praying did my life take a turn for the better...

The "imaginary friend" concept... totally with you their...

While I don't rule out the possibilities of belief and what it maybe... I do have a lot in common with you in your viewpoints...

[BrassFusion]

<3 sinmantyx... s'all I gotta say.

and where's your church at? i've still been thinking of going to see what UU's all about.

[sinmantyx]

<3 sinmantyx... s'all I gotta say.

and where's your church at? i've still been thinking of going to see what UU's all about.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I go to the one in Flint. Please be well advised though, that UUA is a "bottom-up" organization, so individual churches are very individual.

Here is the UUA website.

[sinmantyx]

P.S.:

Unitarian roots can be tracked to Transylvania. How goth is that?

[Hellion]

So, I guess I didn't realize this, but I am part of one of the most hated groups in America.  I forgot the specific statistics that were mentioned during "30 days" or how they were collected, but the picture was pretty clear.  If I decide to self indentify as an atheist instead of an agnostic (or some other over-used term), many people are going to have a particular view of me that is unfavorable.

I used to be a Christian, in fact many people would have called me a zealot, because unlike most of the other Christians in my community, I actually believed in the Bible and wasn't just going with the flow.  I was aware of the hypocrisies of the Church, and when I realized just how deep the brainwashing and manipulation went, I basically had a conversion experience.  After years of getting through the fear of imaginary things and places, and being freed from my crushing burden for souls: at this point in my life, I can only really truely be described as an atheist. 

My traditional Christian familiy is cut off from many aspects of my life.  They will never be told about my sexuality.  They will never be told the full extent of my views on religion.  They will never know who I really am, because what I am would hurt them too much.  At my Grandmother's funeral, I took communion, not because I was comfortable doing that, but because I didn't want my Grandmother's funeral to be all about rumors surrounding me and my "lack of faith".

You might say that I'm a coward, but I'm not going to be the daughter, aunt, or sister who is going to hell and won't be joining us in heaven.

They say that religion is the opiate of the masses, but I'll break it down:  I think prayer is the placebo of the masses, that Jesus is the shared "imaginary friend" coping mechanism of the masses, and that organized religion is a means of oppression and political manipulation of large groups of people, pre-brainwashed and willing to die for made-up causes giving power to HUMAN BEINGS that pull the strings.

Human beings are human beings.  If you are a hateful person, you are going to latch onto snippets of religious text that give you an excuse to hate.  If you are a loving person, you are going to latch onto snippets of religious text that give you an excuse to be loving.  If you are a judgemental person, you will latch onto snippets of religious text that give you an excuse to be judgemental.  If you want to kill someone, you will latch onto snippets of religious text that give you an excuse to do that.  If you are the type of person who needs a "structured environment"  and "set rules" in order to function, you may just become a literalist.

Thing is: placebos do work miracles, the "imaginary friend" coping mechanism is sound and powerful, and churches as unifying social institutions and support systems do work wonders.  I just wish it didn't usually come with the fear, lies, hyprocracy, indoctrination, emotional manipulation, isolationism, and oppression of decent.

I really enjoy the UU church that I go to now.  In some ways, I almost feel strange mentioning it, because I'll come off as being evangelical....but maybe that's not neccesarily a bad thing.  Obviously, my church is not devoid of the effects of human frailties, but at the very least I feel comfortable being myself there moreso than other churches and so do the theists and those with many different personal philosophies as myself.

My hubby always gets a kick out of mentioning that our minister is an openly gay Swedish-American atheistic Buddhist with a soft-spot for Judaism. 

I guess if you hate gay Swedish-American atheistic Buddhists with a soft-spot for Judaism, you might feel a little strange.  Oh well, can't make everyone happy all the time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Very well said,and written.

[BrassFusion]

I go to the one in Flint.  Please be well advised though, that UUA is a "bottom-up" organization, so individual churches are very individual.

Here is the UUA website.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

SCREW FLINT!

[sinmantyx]

SCREW FLINT!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

:confused

Well, you can alway go to one of the other 25 UU Congregations in Mighigan.

[BrassFusion]

:confused

Well, you can alway go to one of the other 25 UU Congregations in Mighigan.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

prolly will eventually... nothing against flint, but it's in the sticks!

[sinmantyx]

prolly will eventually... nothing against flint, but it's in the sticks!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You live in the burbs 'er somethin' dotcha?

:grin

Well, if'n'ya come up this here way, you are certainly welcome ta go'ta church wi' me.

[Steven]

So, I guess I didn't realize this, but I am part of one of the most hated groups in America.  I forgot the specific statistics that were mentioned during "30 days" or how they were collected, but the picture was pretty clear.  If I decide to self indentify as an atheist instead of an agnostic (or some other over-used term), many people are going to have a particular view of me that is unfavorable.

I used to be a Christian, in fact many people would have called me a zealot, because unlike most of the other Christians in my community, I actually believed in the Bible and wasn't just going with the flow.  I was aware of the hypocrisies of the Church, and when I realized just how deep the brainwashing and manipulation went, I basically had a conversion experience.  After years of getting through the fear of imaginary things and places, and being freed from my crushing burden for souls: at this point in my life, I can only really truely be described as an atheist. 

My traditional Christian familiy is cut off from many aspects of my life.  They will never be told about my sexuality.  They will never be told the full extent of my views on religion.  They will never know who I really am, because what I am would hurt them too much.  At my Grandmother's funeral, I took communion, not because I was comfortable doing that, but because I didn't want my Grandmother's funeral to be all about rumors surrounding me and my "lack of faith".

You might say that I'm a coward, but I'm not going to be the daughter, aunt, or sister who is going to hell and won't be joining us in heaven.

They say that religion is the opiate of the masses, but I'll break it down:  I think prayer is the placebo of the masses, that Jesus is the shared "imaginary friend" coping mechanism of the masses, and that organized religion is a means of oppression and political manipulation of large groups of people, pre-brainwashed and willing to die for made-up causes giving power to HUMAN BEINGS that pull the strings.

Human beings are human beings.  If you are a hateful person, you are going to latch onto snippets of religious text that give you an excuse to hate.  If you are a loving person, you are going to latch onto snippets of religious text that give you an excuse to be loving.  If you are a judgemental person, you will latch onto snippets of religious text that give you an excuse to be judgemental.  If you want to kill someone, you will latch onto snippets of religious text that give you an excuse to do that.  If you are the type of person who needs a "structured environment"  and "set rules" in order to function, you may just become a literalist.

Thing is: placebos do work miracles, the "imaginary friend" coping mechanism is sound and powerful, and churches as unifying social institutions and support systems do work wonders.  I just wish it didn't usually come with the fear, lies, hyprocracy, indoctrination, emotional manipulation, isolationism, and oppression of decent.

I really enjoy the UU church that I go to now.  In some ways, I almost feel strange mentioning it, because I'll come off as being evangelical....but maybe that's not neccesarily a bad thing.  Obviously, my church is not devoid of the effects of human frailties, but at the very least I feel comfortable being myself there moreso than other churches and so do the theists and those with many different personal philosophies as myself.

My hubby always gets a kick out of mentioning that our minister is an openly gay Swedish-American atheistic Buddhist with a soft-spot for Judaism. 

I guess if you hate gay Swedish-American atheistic Buddhists with a soft-spot for Judaism, you might feel a little strange.  Oh well, can't make everyone happy all the time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

a few questions I suppose are warrented....

how long will a placebo last you?

is a placebo - prescribed for everyting, every ailment, evey challenge, every crossroads, one placebo, and your on your way?

I niehter hate you nor judge you nor dismiss your experience. Now how will you group and label me, as obviously you've been labeled and alientated by others. Which shelf do I belong on?

As for the political comment, at what point have you ever heard me make statements that I was duty bound as a CHristian to take up a certain agenda? Who is controlling my mind? Do I not sound like a free willed person? Do I sound like your average christianeze (honest question)? If I do, then somehow I have failed. I I do not, is there any chance that there are other groups of Christians who likewise do not fit the traditional mold?

Last Question(s): I do not beleive that you and I have had any correspondence between us. Yet as a Christian, I feel as if I have been lumped in with your beleif about what i am. And that I glean for only certain biblical peices that support my agenda and disregard others. Would it suprise you to knowe that my walk of life is not easy for me? That I have struggled with my faith? That I have had a hard time swallowing portions of scripture that rub me the wrong way? Or that there are thigns that I do not understand? Does my faith make me less human? Less like you? Would it suprise you to know that I too have been opressed from within my own spiritual peer group?

[Fierce Critter]

Something I don't understand.

Isn't atheism, simply put, total disbelief in divinity/god/etc?

So, if you consider yourself atheist, why do you go to any church at all? What does church do for you in that case? (Questing for knowledge & understanding, not calling-out and condemning)

[sinmantyx]

a few questions I suppose are warrented....

how long will a placebo last you?

is a placebo - prescribed for everyting, every ailment, evey challenge, every crossroads, one placebo, and your on your way?

I niehter hate you nor judge you nor dismiss your experience.  Now how will you group and label me, as obviously you've been labeled and alientated by others.  Which shelf do I belong on?

As for the political comment, at what point have you ever heard me make statements that I was duty bound as a CHristian to take up a certain agenda?  Who is controlling my mind?  Do I not sound like a free willed person?  Do I sound like your average christianeze (honest question)?  If I do, then somehow I have failed.  I I do not, is there any chance that there are other groups of Christians who likewise do not fit the traditional mold?

Last Question(s):  I do not beleive that you and I have had any correspondence between us.  Yet as a Christian, I feel as if I have been lumped in with your beleif about what i am.  And that I glean for only certain biblical peices that support my agenda and disregard others.  Would it suprise you to knowe that my walk of life is not easy for me?  That I have struggled with my faith?  That I have had a hard time swallowing portions of scripture that rub me the wrong way?  Or that there are thigns that I do not understand?  Does my faith make me less human?  Less like you?  Would it suprise you to know that I too have been opressed from within my own spiritual peer group?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They actually did a study once. Whoever did this study certainly has balls. They basically found out that prayer (when the person being prayed for did not know they were being prayer for) did jack and squat. However, I'm sure that if the person knew that prayers and good wishes were being said, that the person would be strengthened by this. This is a type of placebo effect, and placebos work some of the time for almost everything. (The last number I remember was about 30%.)

When I used to pray, it was a way of catharsis, similiar to writing in a journal or simply talking to a friend. It is one thing I miss. Led prayers always seemed contrived and many times had an agenda, such as a bible camp leader leading a prayer about how we should behave. (I thought that was kinda tacky.) That, I don't miss.

Which shelf do you belong on? That's really not for me to judge. Christians come in all shapes and sizes. I was a Christian until I was in my early 20's. I've met and spoken with all sorts of people. Given enough time, I'll find the most hateful person in the world who is passionately a Christian and I'll show you the kindest most loving joyful human being who is also Christian. I'll show you an extremely intelligent free thinker that identifies with Christianity, as well as a born sheep. My comment about organized religion wasn't as much a comment on individual Christians like yourself, but a comment on the driving political forces that have sustained organized religion over the years. It has been a means to power and has been sustained by it's own greed for centuries...sending people to war with only the promise of heaven; taking money from people with only the fear of hell; the old 700 Club sapping money from it's listeners with the promise that "the Lord will Bless you" if you give to us; using the oldest trick in the book to make it seem that the prayers of Pat Robertson result in miracles. That's the type of shit that keeps religion in power, in money, and human resources. This is why Christianity as we now know it, is as popular and prevailant as it is. I mean, do I really have to mention "Divine Right"? It's not like your all "in on it", but you are all a product of it in one way or another. (I guess, in a way, we all are.)

Even though we have never met, I can safely assume that you follow only certain pieces of scripture and disregard others. If this were not true, you would probably be in jail or a mental institution. I've read it. I've read it cover-to-cover. Admittedly, that was a long time ago, but I know some of the bizarre passages in the Bible. I remember wondering why it was considered ok to braid my hair when the Bible, in a very straightforward fashion forbade it. Why didn't we go from city to city in sack cloth, preaching and living on whatever people gave us? You simply MUST interpret it for yourself. For goodness sake, if you were a literalist, you'd have to marry your brother's wife if he died, travel a certain distance from the city and dig a hole to go to the bathroom, and cut your hand off if it "offended you". This is not a BAD thing. However, HOW you interpret it depends on WHO you are. You can either take the whole "eye for an eye" route or the "turn the other cheek" route...the Bible allows for either. This is not hypocracy unless you claim to follow (or even simply try to follow) all of the Bible's rules word-for-word. The Bible itself doesn't advocate a literalist, absolutist interpretation, but rather that you allow the Holy Spirit to help you interpret the law. I can't speak for the Holy Spirit, but I certainly hope that She doesn't tell you that stoning gays or adulteresses is super cool...cause that would make me very nervous around you...for...ummm...personal reasons.

None of what you said surprises me one bit. Remember, I was a Christian and a natural born heretic. I'm not only not surprised, I can empathize greatly.

I do not think your faith makes you less human, but it certainly makes you less like me, at least at these points in our lives. Because of who I am, I could not remain sane and remain a Christian. Something had to give. My burden for souls was so great that sometimes I could barely sleep. I was a wreck. At one point I was convinced of my own death at the age of 26. I wanted to die for my faith; if for no other reason but that I would no longer feel continual guilt for not saving the eternal souls of those around me. The pure strain of trying to reconcile all these conflicting convictions, my own imperfections, and inconsistancies of theology and personal experience was too much for me to take. I can't NOT be an atheist. Considering that the vast majority of the world's population are a member of some sort of religion and can handle it just fine: I would say that being Christian makes you more human than me in that respect.

[sinmantyx]

Something I don't understand.

Isn't atheism, simply put, total disbelief in divinity/god/etc?

So, if you consider yourself atheist, why do you go to any church at all? What does church do for you in that case? (Questing for knowledge & understanding, not calling-out and condemning)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's a fair question. I go to church with my husband who is a theist. I think at times he does get more out of it than I do. Church can be a nice social support structure, and I like to meet people, many of which have similiar core viewpoints as I do (belief in civil rights, freedom of thought and open discourse, etc). At current, sometimes they can be quite a bit more pacifistic than I am; however, when our youth group came back from a peace protest in NY and did a little question-and-answer...the congregation absolutely DRILLED THEM. I thought, omg, this is impressive...people are actually having a real discussion about morality, ethics, and life-and-death.

I do not believe in a super-natural or of gods and goddesses. However, I do believe in a "natural" that is so massive and complex that it is difficult for us to imagine or interpret. I know that my own mind is complex and that I have instincts and self-control. I know that I require inner balance, a sense of purpose and belonging, and a set of fundamental ideals and self-definition. Some people would call these issues "spiritual" issues. I don't believe in a "spirit" like a ghost that lives inside you and is released when you die, but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate a "spiritual" home.

[Fierce Critter]

I know that I require inner balance, a sense of purpose and belonging, and a set of fundamental ideals and self-definition.  I ...appreciate a "spiritual" home.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Similar reasons are behind my recent thoughts of returning to my Catholic roots.

Though I think I'd function very, very well in the Universalist church.

[Steven]

They actually did a study once.  Whoever did this study certainly has balls.  They basically found out that prayer (when the person being prayed for did not know they were being prayer for) did jack and squat.  However, I'm sure that if the person knew that prayers and good wishes were being said, that the person would be strengthened by this.  This is a type of placebo effect, and placebos work some of the time for almost everything.  (The last number I remember was about 30%.)

When I used to pray, it was a way of catharsis, similiar to writing in a journal or simply talking to a friend.  It is one thing I miss.  Led prayers always seemed contrived and many times had an agenda, such as a bible camp leader leading a prayer about how we should behave.  (I thought that was kinda tacky.)  That, I don't miss.

Which shelf do you belong on?  That's really not for me to judge.  Christians come in all shapes and sizes.  I was a Christian until I was in my early 20's.  I've met and spoken with all sorts of people.  Given enough time, I'll find the most hateful person in the world who is passionately a Christian and I'll show you the kindest most loving joyful human being who is also Christian.  I'll show you an extremely intelligent free thinker that identifies with Christianity, as well as a born sheep.  My comment about organized religion wasn't as much a comment on individual Christians like yourself, but a comment on the driving political forces that have sustained organized religion over the years.  It has been a means to power and has been sustained by it's own greed for centuries...sending people to war with only the promise of heaven; taking money from people with only the fear of hell; the old 700 Club sapping money from it's listeners with the promise that "the Lord will Bless you" if you give to us; using the oldest trick in the book to make it seem that the prayers of Pat Robertson result in miracles.  That's the type of shit that keeps religion in power, in money, and human resources.  This is why Christianity as we now know it, is as popular and prevailant as it is.  I mean, do I really have to mention "Divine Right"?  It's not like your all "in on it", but you are all a product of it in one way or another.  (I guess, in a way, we all are.)

Even though we have never met, I can safely assume that you follow only certain pieces of scripture and disregard others.  If this were not true, you would probably be in jail or a mental institution.  I've read it.  I've read it cover-to-cover.  Admittedly, that was a long time ago, but I know some of the bizarre passages in the Bible.  I remember wondering why it was considered ok to braid my hair when the Bible, in a very straightforward fashion forbade it.  Why didn't we go from city to city in sack cloth, preaching and living on whatever people gave us?  You simply MUST interpret it for yourself.  For goodness sake, if you were a literalist, you'd have to marry your brother's wife if he died, travel a certain distance from the city and dig a hole to go to the bathroom, and cut your hand off if it "offended you".  This is not a BAD thing.  However, HOW you interpret it depends on WHO you are.  You can either take the whole "eye for an eye" route or the "turn the other cheek" route...the Bible allows for either.  This is not hypocracy unless you claim to follow (or even simply try to follow) all of the Bible's rules word-for-word.  The Bible itself doesn't advocate a literalist, absolutist interpretation, but rather that you allow the Holy Spirit to help you interpret the law.  I can't speak for the Holy Spirit, but I certainly hope that She doesn't tell you that stoning gays or adulteresses is super cool...cause that would make me very nervous around you...for...ummm...personal reasons.

None of what you said surprises me one bit.  Remember, I was a Christian and a natural born heretic.  I'm not only not surprised, I can empathize greatly.

I do not think your faith makes you less human, but it certainly makes you less like me, at least at these points in our lives.  Because of who I am, I could not remain sane and remain a Christian.  Something had to give.  My burden for souls was so great that sometimes I could barely sleep.  I was a wreck.  At one point I was convinced of my own death at the age of 26.  I wanted to die for my faith; if for no other reason but that I would no longer feel continual guilt for not saving the eternal souls of those around me.  The pure strain of trying to reconcile all these conflicting convictions, my own imperfections, and inconsistancies of theology and personal experience was too much for me to take.  I can't NOT be an atheist.  Considering that the vast majority of the world's population are a member of some sort of religion and can handle it just fine: I would say that being Christian makes you more human than me in that respect.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

well, your assumptions about me are wrong.

and your admission that the Bible allows you the benefit of the Holy Spirit for interpretation does nto apply only to THE LAW, but to the text in general as it is meant to be used.

and you allready know that a literalist approach is also not in order. you used yoru hair braiding example. But that peice of literatre is aimed at a brand new nation of people who are attempting to seperate themselves and their culture, which had been intermixed wtih Pagan culture and deities (including child sacrifice to Molech) for a very long time. Whether or not you agree wtih the mandate being handed down to this people, you peronally, are not an early stage Israelite in the BC era being seperated from teh surrounding nations. Honestly what purpose would it serve for God to forbid you to braid your hair today?

I do not find all passages of scripture easy to follow. A great deal of the early historical text regarding the wiping out of surrounding nations as Israel pushed forward for example, ist not easily palatable. But again - that timepeice and situation had a purpose as it applied to the early nation of Israel. I do not whitewash it. But at some point, I have to trust God and what he is doing. I suppose its sort of like explaining the horrifics of war to civilians who are vehemently opposed to the conflict. A soldier still has to do his job and does not have the privildege of a choice by choice existence.

so you asked me if I would stone you for being gay, or an adulteress.

DO you REALLY mean to ask me such a silly question, or are you angry and venting at me for your frustration with traditional Christianity's take on homosexuality? And if you've ever read any mof my posts you know I am not this type of person who condones using religion to cause apin and seperation.

Because you've read the text "cover to cover" then you also know I HAVE to counter you with CHrist's own example - where he STOPPED a crowed of idiot and clueless zealots from stoning a women for adaultry and chastized them and protected her. I suggest to you that once again - the time and age for these sorts of thigns had long since past and that CHrist himself was to be the beginning of a new age, and approach. There is also the private account of Christ and the woman at the well. She was a multiple adaultress caught up in sexual sin. How did christ speak to her? what did he say to her? How did he make her feel and how did he send her on her way? What was her response to him?

incidently I am an adulterer.

In fact I've committed many sins that would fall into the death and maiming scenarios you suggested.

there is a difference between interpretation on a flat basis - and searching the scripture with its format in mind, in order that you can peice togethor the PURPOSE and inteded adressee of certain texts. I do not disregard the old testament, in fact there is tremendous value and insight there for me to draw from - take for example the charector and man to god relationships of of David, or Caleb. David also, was an adulterer and a murderer of Bathshebas husband - a murder simply because David saw her bathign and wanted her for himself but she was married....so he took her anyway. Yet God still called David " man after my own heart". Now, He let David suffer the end result of his sins, yet he never seperated himself from David. The prophet came to David and told him what would happen - that because of his own sins his kingdom would be divided, his sons would take his concubines in full view of the kingdom, and the his own son would die in battle. Everything happend. But the responsibility was David's. He took himself out of Go'ds protection, because he wanted what he wanted. But remember the restoration between God and David later on.

But I want to also look at the example fo Christ - who often quoted old testament scripture, and then further stated that the Law itself,, had become a false God, and the HE himself, was the fullfillment of the law, and that the Law and its tenants had a time and a purpose that are foolish to try to reconcile, as literally ALL men had broken the law and if you had broken only one part you had broken all of it.

what you suggest to me - is based in legalism. Not interpretation. But control and abuse.

you also go on to state that you were an emotional wreck, so great was your burden for souls. This feeling unfortunately does not prove that you were "really" a Christian. It simply proves that you were under great duress....

....but you are not the messiah. your job was not/is not - to bear this burden in this manner, it is beyond your reach, your strength, and you capabiliites. Did you forget - or were you never introduced to Christ's own words where he came to grant us an abundent life? and that he came to grant us his peace? You do not sound as if you had embraced those promises, you sound instead - like a tremendous amount of unhealthy and unrealistic pressure was wrongfully placed upon you, and this is a tragedy, and a shame, and a sin committed against you by others who shirked their responsibility. Im sorry about that. You have been wounded. In that regard, yes we may be very much alike. ANd take ti a step further then, because so was the Jewish nation, wounded and mind numbed by the Law and the Sanhedrin, unitl christ himself came to bring freedom.

there are far too many who refuse that freedom - out of fear. Or, control.

you mentioned my coming to losing my mind if I did not disregard portions of scripture. WHile I understand what youre saying, thats not how I work, and I dont operate out of fear. What you are suggesting to me is a fear based self protective approach.

ANd you mentioned Pat Robertson and all of that religeous vaudville fucking bullshit that I hate. Again, does not apply to me. let me give you an example to consider.....out of all the men on the earth up to Christ - there were many powerful and notable religeous leaders, such as Moses, or Saul, or David, or Elijah, etc. etc. etc. Famous, powerful men. Men accepted as bonified pillars of the faith. Do we agree here?

Now - who did christ say was the greatest man ever born of women? Who did HE choose as an example for us to consider ? And remember that there must have been a purpose to this statement or he would not have made it...

...John the Babtist.

A freak who wore camel skins, lived out in the wilderness and ate bugs.

John came from nothing religeous.

He had no education.

was not a levite.

he was a literal freakshow, who preached a new gospel of personal reconcilliation and who openly attacked the religeous powers that be, calling them a brood of vipers to their face and confronting Herod the king to his face for stealing his brother's wife. John had a nutsack the size of wisconsin, but tact, no.

and consider also that the text contains little written material concerning John, in comparison to these other leaders I mentioned, John is just a blip on the radar screen.

so what made John so different? I leave that to you to consider, in hopes that it will be a blessing to you.....

oh, before I forget - you said you once wanted to die for your faith. Again - it sounds like someone got into your head. In fairness to you, I too have mentioned being willing to die for my faith.

I am also willing to die to protect my wife. I am a husband.

and am willing to die to protect my country. I am a Veteran.

I am willing to die to save a friend - I am a friend.

I one gave one of my kidneys to a girl I did not know very well, because she DEFINATLY was going to die. It was a physical and emotional risk to me, but also a simple choice, she needed help, I felt called by God to do so, and I did not WANT to die in the process. This other Kidney I've got left....I'm gonna pretty much hold onto it, cause fi I didint, I'd die.

so....I am a beleiver. but I do not go out seeking my own termination. I do not "desire" this. I "desire" to do the best with what I've got every day. i do not know where yoru desire for death came from. But I DO wish that someone had helped you with it, that feeling was not healthy.

i also liked your example about bible camp leaders and thier tacky prayers.

yes I've seen all of that shit. and I've seen people pray for like.....a job, and then sit their fat ass back don on the sofa and wait for the phone to ring miraculously.

why in the world, would I even consider that as Christianity, when I have the true example modeled for me in Christ? When did Christ sit on his ass and wait for things to happen for him? In fact - how did Christ teach us to pray? Does he expect us to recite the Lords Prayer word for word? of course not, thats ridiculous. You know the text - go back and study that portion. Christ ridiculed EXACTLY what you were jsut talkign about before he taught the lords prayer.

and his prayer was a model - and example - of heartfelt and reverant singleness of mind. Again you seem to crticize the prayer itself as a failure, when in reality prayers are useless for those who live in futility. Your walk with God is a complete and dynamic package. Its not a bunch of prayers spoken like a magic receipe, or a self serving and publically viewed account of your supposed holiness.

All the crap you have seen, I have seen. And still see. And Christ himself saw it. Remember the example of Nicodemus. He asked christ what he had to do to gain eternal life. Christ knew he was full of it and called him on his bullshit by telling Nicodemus, a wealthy man, to go sell everyting and give it to the poor. He said that , because he knew Nicodemus' heart - he was not really wanting to please God, so he hit him where he lived: Poor Nicodemus shuffled off back to his wealth. Was that passage there to say that we should not be rich or that riches are evil? Of course not. That passage was there to show us that we should not be full of shit. Be who you are, but be real.

I wish you peace. your cool with me.

Steve

[Steven]

I would say that being Christian makes you more human than me in that respect.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would not.

I would say that I'm one of you, and you are one of me.

I am not better than you.

[sinmantyx]

No, I don't actually think you are going to stone me. I was trying to be funny.

There are plenty of people that use various religious texts to justify their actions; as you try to make sense of everything (such as what the "law" actually is)...Matthew 22:37-40 or Jewish law? When the Bible says "slaves obey your masters", at what point is rebellion Christian? What is actually meant by "slave" in that context and what does it imply? We ask this question, not because of obvious and transparent issues of translation or interpretation or cultural context, but primarily because we cannot stomach this phrase being applied to American black slavery. Right?

In Acts 8:27-38 is it possible that the word usually translated as "eunuch" should be interpretted as "homosexual"? Can the word usually translated as "virgin" actually mean a "woman not beholden to a man"? Those issues of translation and cultural context are just as valid as the term "slave", but people who bring up that question are accused of simply having a gay or feminist agenda. Perhaps not by anyone here personally, but by much of the church I'd suspect.

My home-town pastor did not allow me to be married in the church my father built (literally designed and helped construct), because I wanted to be married by a Unitarian minister. The reason being, is that two of our attendents were homosexuals. I couldn't explain this to him for a few reasons, and I don't think he knows to this day. (I think at some point, I should send him a letter.) At the time, he had no idea why I didn't want him to marry me (and he did offer). The thought of someone who had preached so harshly against homosexuality so many times, marrying me, standing there with my friends, was really horrifying to me, but I could not tell him this. It didn't matter that marriage wasn't considered a sacrament in the Lutheran Church, or that I broke down and started yelling at him about, "Why was the veil torn in two then, why?" It didn't matter how much I explained that the "Church" was a group of people and that this Church was a building that meant a lot to me. He had found a passage somewhere in the old testament that implied that bad things would happen to the church if someone who was not a believer would perform ceremonies within it.

That might seem like the most stupid shit to most people, but to him it was a matter of faith, meditation and convinction, and he was broken up about it. He did come to my wedding, and I was glad to see him there. Telling bold-faced lies at the reception line about how, "We got married here instead of the church back home, because it was closer to where we live now." ---that was hard, but I knew if I opened my mouth, my parent's church would be slung into controversy quickly. The new minister had no idea what he had done, and in fact, didn't even tell the deacons the whole truth to avoid controversy. Later, his daughter and son-in-law were actually the first to be married in the church my dad built, and that kinda stung; because that was my dream the entire time, all the years, that my father worked on the new church.

So yeah, I should be the poster child for bitter X-Christian. However, I do realize that the actions of the religious people around me were not done out of malice, but because of their heart-felt faith in the way that they read the scriptures. Brother Jed (the guy that coined "confrontational evangalism") screams fire and brimstone on college campuses, trying to save souls. I feel so horrible for him, because even though it may seem like crazy behavior to most people, I know he is doing this because he loves the people around him and desperately needs to save the eternal souls of the fallen.

There's plenty of things that happened at my old church, that most modern people would find pretty strange and that I certainly have cause to be bitter over (if I choose to be). However, given the fundamental beliefs that currently define "Christianity", including salvation through Christ and the possibility of going to heaven or hell when you die is why I am not longer a Christian. It is not because of an individual or a bad experience.

I cannot have the concept in my head that the people around me may be going to hell and I have the means to save them...without going batshit insane. I don't know how anybody can. I frankly think Brother Jed is someone who actually did go off the deep end...and in many ways I respect him (in all his brash craziness and name-calling) more than pew warmers...you know, the social acceptible Christians, who are nice people and don't "push their religion on me".

I went through all sorts of permeatations to deal with my problems, including latching onto the phrase, "every knee shall bow and tongue confess" and becoming a Universalist (a Universalist in the literal sense first, not the organizational sense). Once I stepped away just a little bit, I saw the problems of the Church more clearly. The faith I once had was simply based on what I had always been told. It wasn't mine. I didn't even know where it had come from. It no longer made sense to force myself to believe in things that were not the least bit convincing. Eventually, Christianity came in view as just another mythology among so many others, and underneath the Christian Joy was always a person who would base their decisions on nonsense; trusting that they (unlike all the others who disagreed with them) had come to some profound knowledge of some profound truth...that no evidence, logic or common sense was ever going to waiver.

Don't get me wrong, and I know I'm not pulling punches. People like you who are willing to have a dicussion like this, are willing to learn from others and field the hard questions, and avoid lashing out but still speak their truth; are nice to find.

My roomate once I left home, would not allow me to have game books in the apartment because Shadowrun apparently had the images of "real demons" she had seen when praying over someone who had a bad back. She said she saw a creature with tentacles wrapped around the person, causing the pain. (So, apparently big giant squid are bad.) Her friends knew that I had gone into the local comic book shop that included gaming books and asked if, "I was scared." They would never go in there due to fear. Trust me, if we were having this same conversation with them, they would have started quoting Bible verses and recited rehearsed phrases....word-for-word...as a means of "defending Christ and the Bible" but actually just using it to completely disengage from the conversation.

[Msterbeau]

:confused

Well, you can alway go to one of the other 25 UU Congregations in Mighigan.

Heh. No wonder I get good vibes from you. I'm UU as well. Birmingham Unitarian... :-)

[sinmantyx]

Heh.  No wonder I get good vibes from you.  I'm UU as well.  Birmingham Unitarian...  :-)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

AWESOME!

[Steven]

No, I don't actually think you are going to stone me.  I was trying to be funny. 

There are plenty of people that use various religious texts to justify their actions; as you try to make sense of everything (such as what the "law" actually is)...Matthew 22:37-40 or Jewish law?  When the Bible says "slaves obey your masters", at what point is rebellion Christian?  What is actually meant by "slave" in that context and what does it imply?  We ask this question, not because of obvious and transparent issues of translation or interpretation or cultural context, but primarily because we cannot stomach this phrase being applied to American black slavery.  Right?

In Acts 8:27-38 is it possible that the word usually translated as "eunuch" should be interpretted as "homosexual"?  Can the word usually translated as "virgin" actually mean a "woman not beholden to a man"?  Those issues of translation and cultural context are just as valid as the term "slave", but people who bring up that question are accused of simply having a gay or feminist agenda.  Perhaps not by anyone here personally, but by much of the church I'd suspect.

My home-town pastor did not allow me to be married in the church my father built (literally designed and helped construct), because I wanted to be married by a Unitarian minister.  The reason being, is that two of our attendents were homosexuals.  I couldn't explain this to him for a few reasons, and I don't think he knows to this day.  (I think at some point, I should send him a letter.)  At the time, he had no idea why I didn't want him to marry me (and he did offer).  The thought of someone who had preached so harshly against homosexuality so many times, marrying me, standing there with my friends, was really horrifying to me, but I could not tell him this.  It didn't matter that marriage wasn't considered a sacrament in the Lutheran Church, or that I broke down and started yelling at him about, "Why was the veil torn in two then, why?"  It didn't matter how much I explained that the "Church" was a group of people and that this Church was a building that meant a lot to me.  He had found a passage somewhere in the old testament that implied that bad things would happen to the church if someone who was not a believer would perform ceremonies within it.

That might seem like the most stupid shit to most people, but to him it was a matter of faith, meditation and convinction, and he was broken up about it.  He did come to my wedding, and I was glad to see him there.  Telling bold-faced lies at the reception line about how, "We got married here instead of the church back home, because it was closer to where we live now." ---that was hard, but I knew if I opened my mouth, my parent's church would be slung into controversy quickly.  The new minister had no idea what he had done, and in fact, didn't even tell the deacons the whole truth to avoid controversy.  Later, his daughter and son-in-law were actually the first to be married in the church my dad built, and that kinda stung; because that was my dream the entire time, all the years, that my father worked on the new church.

So yeah, I should be the poster child for bitter X-Christian.  However, I do realize that the actions of the religious people around me were not done out of malice, but because of their heart-felt faith in the way that they read the scriptures.  Brother Jed (the guy that coined "confrontational evangalism") screams fire and brimstone on college campuses, trying to save souls.  I feel so horrible for him, because even though it may seem like crazy behavior to most people, I know he is doing this because he loves the people around him and desperately needs to save the eternal souls of the fallen.

There's plenty of things that happened at my old church, that most modern people would find pretty strange and that I certainly have cause to be bitter over (if I choose to be).  However, given the fundamental beliefs that currently define "Christianity", including salvation through Christ and the possibility of going to heaven or hell when you die is why I am not longer a Christian.  It is not because of an individual or a bad experience.

I cannot have the concept in my head that the people around me may be going to hell and I have the means to save them...without going batshit insane.  I don't know how anybody can.  I frankly think Brother Jed is someone who actually did go off the deep end...and in many ways I respect him (in all his brash craziness and name-calling) more than pew warmers...you know, the social acceptible Christians, who are nice people and don't "push their religion on me".

I went through all sorts of permeatations to deal with my problems, including latching onto the phrase, "every knee shall bow and tongue confess" and becoming a Universalist (a Universalist in the literal sense first, not the organizational sense).  Once I stepped away just a little bit, I saw the problems of the Church more clearly.  The faith I once had was simply based on what I had always been told.  It wasn't mine.  I didn't even know where it had come from.  It no longer made sense to force myself to believe in things that were not the least bit convincing.  Eventually, Christianity came in view as just another mythology among so many others, and underneath the Christian Joy was always a person who would base their decisions on nonsense; trusting that they (unlike all the others who disagreed with them) had come to some profound knowledge of some profound truth...that no evidence, logic or common sense was ever going to waiver.

Don't get me wrong, and I know I'm not pulling punches.  People like you who are willing to have a dicussion like this, are willing to learn from others and field the hard questions, and avoid lashing out but still speak their truth; are nice to find. 

My roomate once I left home, would not allow me to have game books in the apartment because Shadowrun apparently had the images of "real demons" she had seen when praying over someone who had a bad back.  She said she saw a creature with tentacles wrapped around the person, causing the pain.  (So, apparently big giant squid are bad.)  Her friends knew that I had gone into the local comic book shop that included gaming books and asked if, "I was scared."  They would never go in there due to fear.  Trust me, if we were having this same conversation with them, they would have started quoting Bible verses and recited rehearsed phrases....word-for-word...as a means of "defending Christ and the Bible" but actually just using it to completely disengage from the conversation.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

this was a great post, very honest and forthright, and I receive it from you with much respect and an open mind.

these thigns that you speak of - I have definately seen very similar situations, both in the churches in Christendom and in the JW organization.

I have also been an outcast among my peers, because of my outspokeness and because I have charged others (including pastors and a TV Evangelist to his face from up onstage at the Whisky in Hollywood) with being liars, manipulators, and fear mongerers, and because of the company of friends that I keep, the social circles I run in, the language I use, the alcohol I drink, the cigarettes I smoke, the music I listen to, etc. etc. etc. Half of my family is JW and do not (literally) speak to me or acknowledge me. These thigns are painfu and DO have a profound impact. I also understand deeply the claim that your faith was not your own and that you were doing as you were told. This is the great failure of the church. This and the christianeze culture that we have developed. its a tragedy.

I will also accept - what you say about your decisions being founded in doctrinal issues as opposed to the thigns you have experienced. That is your right, I understand your point of view, and I wish you well. You and I seem to have different levels of understanding on a christians personal responsibility toward those who are "lost"...... I just dont feel that pressure that you felt, although I have definately spent time in the trenches. The best explanation that I can give you is that i am a bit of a wanderer, I step in and do the best I can, and move on. The rest is up to God, it never dawns on me to look over my shoulder to see if my efforts have paid off, its really none of my business at that point and I dont ahve the time or resources to do that.

I want to thank you for your assertion that the church is in actuality, the body of christ as opposed to organized christendom and all of its trappings. I elaborated there a bit - but if thats what your saying then YES I agree with you absolutely. That is a critical misunderstanding I beleive. In your case it seems to have further alienated you. IN my case it gives me hope of restoration.

we have to pick our battles. I used to constantly go head to head with those like you described, who quoted scripture in order to disengage, to me that reeks of fear and teh inability to make up their own minds and be themselves. Seldom do I do that anymore - unless someone attempts to charge me directly or paint me into a corner - at that point I will adress the person. But in the end it becomes a useless "my god is biger than your god" tug of war that is steeped in pride, including my own, and thats just foolish because it takes me off the beaten path of what I beleive Christ has called me to do.

I hope that one day, you DO contact the Pastor who failed you. I also hope that you call him on his lies, and ask him what his convictions now lead him to lie about. perhaps you'll get a chance to forgive him and perhaps he'll get a chance to forgive himself.

maybe some day you and I will have a cup of coffee. I'd like that.

Steven

[Scary Guy]

'Jesus save me from your followers" really does have more meaning if you live in the bible belt (either the one down south or the one to the west in Michigan.

Organized religion is bad when you considder it as a form of brainwashing. Personally I view it more as a crutch, which some people do need to get through the day so it does have it's place. Then again some of the biggest villians in history have hidden behind the name of their religions (including Christianity since it seems to be the main theme of the thread). Church is good for social growth though and is a great meeting place for town afairs and discussions (which people will listen to you more closely if they think you hold the same beliefs as them). Especially since keeping up in appearneces usually means mandatory attendance to church, I mean when is the last time you were at a town hall meeting anyway?

Belief, what is that exactly? I think it should come from within and not be handed to you. Morals shouldn't be based on the community, they should come from within. As long as you're not hurting anyone except yourself I say do whatever the hell you want. There was a theory brought up on another forum that ALL people were agnostic, because they don't know. Be honest, you don't know, and that's why it is called "faith". Atheists don't know either as they can neither prove nor disprove there is a god since "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". Like I say, I only claim to be Atheist to keep the bible thumping christians and similar zealots from other religions away, since agnostic seems easier to convert to me than an atheist.

But in the end life is too short to worry about the meaning of life, what religion is right for you, and where you'll go after you die. It's like the lottery in the same way that if you pick the wrong one, you're going to hell anyhow.

Even if I picked the wrong one I wouldn't want to believe or serve a god who would condemn me just for picking the wrong religion/set of beliefs anyhow.