Legal my ass....

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Mark?

[Troy Spiral (13)]

A guy said last night on CNN (forget who) that if they had the same laws in England as they do in the U.S. they may not have foiled the terror plans they broke up last week.  Also there has been some discussion about whether Clinton did some illegal spying as well.    I really hope this is overturned because it appears from what I've read, that NSA wiretapping does help deter terrorism.

I think , in many cases there IS a social safety benifit to giving up what most would consider civil liberties for the sake of "being more safe" but its at a cost. There is a conflict , a clear one , between "socital safety" and "personal freedom".

Its not so much that i feel there arent arent benifits to giving government more power, i just think that many feel that "being more safe" contiually trumping individual rights is a place many would prefer not to go and , theoreitcally is counterproductive.

But when it comes time to vote, people usually think "hrmm do i want to vote for a guy that will build my kids a safer (usually meaning more restrictive) school or one that will allow us more "freedom" but be less safe?" Usuaully the safety first retoric wins the day over "personal freedom". Despite people being philosophicly in favor of "more freedom" your average voter continue to regard personal freedom as less important than "safety" when it comes down to brass tacks of day to day living and real or imagined danger.

Is that a good or a bad thing? Extrapolating out either side to a distant anarchist or big brotheresque future could be spun in a bad light.

[Paper Hearts]

The so called war on terrorism, is just that, it's only so called, it's not an actual war...and it is seperate from the war in Iraq. So just because you have a war going on in one area doesn't give a president free reign in all spheres of governing. What's more, congress rejected the Bush regime's first request for war in Iraq because it was too broad in the powers he wanted to give himself, one of the main reasons why it was rejected was because the congress did not agree that the president should be allowed to direct warrentless survielance.

But, In all fairness, the congress is impedent, the language in the second draft, the one approved, was still too ambiguous and, sadly, Bush is a conniving little prick, so he found a way to defy congress...but it's still wrong because he knows why his first request was disapproved.

Remember that Bush first denied that he had a program to tap lines without warrants...just as he's denied systematic torture of prisoners of war...and then all that came out in the news, too.

Well, as a person, I'm not underhanded and so I feel misrepresented by this president and his administration. At any rate, if they're going to insist on calling it a war then the enemy is entitled to the same rights granted to the prisoners of past wars. Interment camps that were set up in WWII are looked at as wrong and unnecessary, and I think this wire-tapping and the treatment of captured Arabs, in military prisons is very similar. Examples were set in the Revolutionary War, when enemies were captured...at first people wanted to give captured British people no right to trial either, but, some of our earliest presidents insisted that these people recieve the treatment that the constitution that they drafted says that all people are entitled to...one of our earliest presidents even acted as lawyer in defense of a captured British officer. Even serial murderers receive trials, have rights, require warrants, etc. We don't tap lines without warrants for anything else...not the so-called war on drugs, not anything.

Where as there is 'some' evidence that warrantless wiretapping may help to prevent terrorist attacks there is much 'proof' that many people's rights have been senselessly violated. I would offer that profiling people and invading their privacy is terrorism. And I would also put that it's dishonorable and that it doesn't represent me to do such things...a war won by wrong is not a victory, it's the worst defeat available.

I am not for staying the course of evil that has been set...because it only breeds more opposition and so eventually makes us more unsafe. These "terrorist" groups are always going to exist, why provoke their growth with abusive methods of control?

[phee]

It is interesting that in the name of fighting evil... the government has become the very thing that it is fighting....

[Scary Guy]

4th amendment

arguement OVER

"those who sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither freedom nor security" - Ben Franklin

[BlackHound]

I'm with her on the topic, but we need to tap bush phone.

[phee]

4th amendment

arguement  OVER

"those who sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither freedom nor security" - Ben Franklin

Good quote

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

How exactly does a police force find a criminal without profiling? Can you name any investigative body that doesn't use profiling every day?

How are Arabs being mistreated in our military prisons. I'm not talking about the odd asshole that abuses someone. I am talking about in general. 3 meals a day of a quality that is better than our public schools. They are held in a tropic paradise. They can pray and worship as they please.

[BrassFusion]

How exactly does a police force find a criminal without profiling? Can you name any investigative body that doesn't use profiling every day?

How are Arabs being mistreated in our military prisons. I'm not talking about the odd asshole that abuses someone. I am talking about in general. 3 meals a day of a quality that is better than our public schools. They are held in a tropic paradise. They can pray and worship as they please.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I guess I could be mistaken, but I do believe this is the first instance of the word "profiling" so far in this thread... so... no one's brought that into question. What does it have to do with unconstitutional wiretapping?

And geez, as for Arabs being mistreated, other than "the odd asshole that abuses someone," you just answered your own question! Some truly *odd* assholes abuse them! That's all there is to it! That's mistreatment!