what do you beleive in?

[BrassFusion]

I feel that any religious dogma is evil of the greatest kind.

I disagree with you on paraphrasing.  Any spiritual message in any of the largest "faiths" in existence was mostly lost on the masses due to  paraphrasing.  Not to mention priest and rabbis. Why would anyone need a middleman to have a relationship with "God"?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You just contradicted yourself a little, it seems. Since all religious dogma is so evil (not necessarily agreeing with you, there), why would paraphrasing matter? At the least, it should open old scriptures to question and new, more liberal interpretations. I honestly don't believe ANY scriptures were ever divinely inspired, so why NOT paraphrase them, as long as the followers take everything with a grain of salt and in the context of their own experiences?

[Guest Game of Chance]

You just contradicted yourself a little, it seems. Since all religious dogma is so evil (not necessarily agreeing with you, there), why would paraphrasing matter? At the least, it should open old scriptures to question and new, more liberal interpretations. I honestly don't believe ANY scriptures were ever divinely inspired, so why NOT paraphrase them, as long as the followers take everything with a grain of salt and in the context of their own experiences?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not at all. Certainly, all of the world's religious philosphies contain a kernel of Truth. In fact, its the same kernel of Truth. Its the dogma that goes with that Truth that differentiates them. I think the prophets of those religious philosophies were on the right track and "tuned in", so to speak with the Universe.

You might even say they were "On the bus".

The main goal of every philosophy that I've been exposed to is to unite the lower self (ego) with the higher self (the Godhead, Superego, be more christ-like, krishna-conciousness, etc.). The problem is, that Truth has been veiled by the morals and dogma that go along with them.

You take concepts out of context by paraphrasing and you end up losing the original meaning.

[BrassFusion]

Not at all.  Certainly, all of the world's religious philosphies contain a kernel of Truth.  In fact, its the same kernel of Truth.  Its the dogma that goes with that Truth that differentiates them.  I think the prophets of those religious philosophies were on the right track and "tuned in", so to speak with the Universe. 

You might even say they were "On the bus". 

The main goal of every philosophy that I've been exposed to is to unite the lower self (ego) with the higher self (the Godhead, Superego, be more christ-like, krishna-conciousness, etc.).  The problem is, that Truth has been veiled by the morals and dogma that go along with them. 

You take concepts out of context by paraphrasing and you end up losing the original meaning.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wait a minute.

Let's find a common ground here.

I'm sanctimonious because I'm an agnostic. By virtue of my lack of belief in anything other than logic and the scientific method, I can never be COMPLETELY wrong.

It sounds like you're searching for the same infallibility through a different method... one of worshiping every prophet.

What proof do you have that ANY of those nutcases found the secret to Divine Truth? And where do you get off calling Steven uneducated? Hell, maybe he's the next prophet you'll end up worshiping.

[Guest Game of Chance]

Wait a minute.

Let's find a common ground here.

I'm sanctimonious because I'm an agnostic. By virtue of my lack of belief in anything other than logic and the scientific method, I can never be COMPLETELY wrong.

It sounds like you're searching for the same infallibility through a different method... one of worshiping every prophet.

What proof do you have that ANY of those nutcases found the secret to Divine Truth? And where do you get off calling Steven uneducated? Hell, maybe he's the next prophet you'll end up worshiping.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Experience. I've been practicing yoga and ceremonial magick for years. All I can tell you is that certain actions (when performed properly) produce certain results. If you're interested in discovering for yourself, I suggest you start here:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/oto/lib4.htm

And he could be. But since he follows one instead of exploring them all, and clings to his idea of god and that idea only, I doubt it.

[phee]

Experience.  I've been practicing yoga and cermonial magick for years.  All I can tell you is that certain actions (when performed properly) produce certain results.  If you're interested in discovering for yourself, I suggest you start here:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/oto/lib4.htm

And he could be.  But since he follows one instead of exploring them all, and clings to his idea of god and that idea only, I doubt it.

Cerimonial Magick??? What happened to the "Science"?

[Guest Game of Chance]

Magick: The Art and Science of causing change in accordance with Will.

[BrassFusion]

Cerimonial Magick??? What happened to the "Science"?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactly what I was thinking. Well... paraphrased.

[phee]

Magick: The Art and Science of causing change in accordance with Will.

Umm... Okay.... carry on

[Guest Game of Chance]

^ see above post

Again, certain actions produce certain results.

[BrassFusion]

Magick: The Art and Science of causing change in accordance with Will.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah, we have different definitions of "science."

And why do you, personally, spell it with a K? I never got a straight answer on that one out of any "pagans" or "witches" or whatever...

[Guest Game of Chance]

Magick, as in the scientific exploration of the conciousness through various, well-defined experiments, should always be differentiated from the kitchen/folk magic of the wiccans/pagans.

[Guest Game of Chance]

Here is another text that I believe may be of help to you in this area:

http://www.rawilson.com/trigger1.html

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/156184003...glance&n=283155

I invite you to try some of the experiments and see for yourself.

[BrassFusion]

Magick, as in the scientific exploration of the conciousness through various, well-defined experiments, should always be differentiated from the kitchen/folk magic of the wiccans/pagans.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If it was really scientific exploration of the consciousness through various well-defined experiments, it would simply be science (psychology, anyone?), and you wouldn't bother calling it "Magick."

If you can prove that drinking the blood of roosters will get you laid, it's Science. If you can't prove it and you do it anyway, it's superstition. If you drink rooster's blood and you sprout wings and fly around, but only sometimes, THEN it's magic.

Unless you're pretentious, too. Then it's Magick.

[Guest Game of Chance]

If it was really scientific exploration of the consciousness through various well-defined experiments, it would simply be science (psychology, anyone?), and you wouldn't bother calling it "Magick."

If you can prove that drinking the blood of roosters will get you laid, it's Science. If you can't prove it and you do it anyway, it's superstition. If you drink rooster's blood and you sprout wings and fly around, but only sometimes, THEN it's magic.

Unless you're pretentious, too. Then it's Magick.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is in fact, the highest form of psychology. The props are merely to trick your mind. When I invoke Pan, I'm merely bringing that deeply embedded psychological archetype to the forefront of my conciousness.

Prove to me anything at all, its easily disproven.

Like I said, try for yourself.

[torn asunder]

as many of us have shown in several discussions on this board, what you have experienced to be "truth" in your life may well be so, but it only applies to you. each person has/finds his/her own truth, and for one to say another's is false is, in my opinion, way out of line... after all, who are you (general) to judge?

[torn asunder]

It is in fact, the highest form of psychology.  The props are merely to trick your mind.  When I invoke Pan, I'm merely bringing that deeply embedded psychological archetype to the forefront of my conciousness.

this might only work for you, since , for example, "pan" means absolutely nothing to me, and would in no way bring any archetype to my consciousness...

[Guest Game of Chance]

as many of us have shown in several discussions on this board, what you have experienced to be "truth" in your life may well be so, but it only applies to you. each person has/finds his/her own truth, and for one to say another's is false is, in my opinion, way out of line... after all, who are you (general) to judge?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Agreed. I couldn't possibly understand your view of the Universe.

Its not a matter of judgement, frankly, I don't care what you or anyone else does. As long as you're not interfering with me or mine.

However, the morals and dogma that accompany most modern religious philosophies sicken me to no end. Its past time for these restrictions to be lifted from mankind.

[BrassFusion]

When I want to be spritely and creative, I become Erin.

When I want to be a smartass, I become Erin.

When I want to be a sexual deviant, I become Erin.

When I want to be grounded and calm, I become... still Erin.

It's aweome to be multi-faceted and not rely on "invoking" shit. Saves a lot of time, and that's important in today's fast-paced world.

[Guest Game of Chance]

this might only work for you, since , for example, "pan" means absolutely nothing to me, and would in no way bring any archetype to my consciousness...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It most certainly would. Those archetypes are embedded in our superconciousness as evidenced by the similiarties in the stories of Jesus/Krsna/Meithras. Not to mention the countless other solar deities who weren't crucified and rose again 3 days later.

[Guest Game of Chance]

When I want to be spritely and creative, I become Erin.

When I want to be a smartass, I become Erin.

When I want to be a sexual deviant, I become Erin.

When I want to be grounded and calm, I become... still Erin.

It's aweome to be multi-faceted and not rely on "invoking" shit. Saves a lot of time, and that's important in today's fast-paced world.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hey, Do what thou wilt. As long as you're not infringing upon my rights to do my thing, I could care less what you do. Just don't bombard me with dogma and we're cool.

[torn asunder]

Agreed.  I couldn't possibly understand your view of the Universe.

Its not a matter of judgement, frankly, I don't care what you or anyone else does.  As long as you're not interfering with me or mine. 

However, the morals and dogma that accompany most modern religious philosophies sicken me to no end.  Its past time for these restrictions to be lifted from mankind.

actually, this... " However, the morals and dogma that accompany most modern religious philosophies sicken me to no end. Its past time for these restrictions to be lifted from mankind.... is entirely a matter of judgement, (you've "judged" them as thoughts who's time has passed) as was your interpretation of steven's "apparant" lack of education on this subject...

[Guest Game of Chance]

actually, this... " However, the morals and dogma that accompany most modern religious philosophies sicken me to no end.  Its past time for these restrictions to be lifted from mankind.... is entirely a matter of judgement, (you've "judged" them as thoughts who's time has passed) as was your interpretation of steven's "apparant" lack of education on this subject...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They ARE thoughts whose time has past. The time of patriarchal societies (and of YHVH, a Jewish/Christian fatherly deity) is over. With it, the religious philosophies of that time.

[BrassFusion]

Hey, Do what thou wilt.  As long as you're not infringing upon my rights to do my thing, I could care less what you do.  Just don't bombard me with dogma and we're cool.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't, particularly because I'm agnostic. Oddly enough, you've still insulted me and Steven for our lifestyles on separate occassions.

I think he deserves an apology from you.

[Guest Game of Chance]

Feel free to debate some more. I'm going to finish packing. If anyone would care to discuss this further, I'd be happy to it through PM's.

Cheers,

Steve

[Guest Game of Chance]

I don't, particularly because I'm agnostic. Oddly enough, you've still insulted me and Steven for our lifestyles on separate occassions.

I think he deserves an apology from you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I never said you did. Nor do I recall insulting you for your lifestyle. Perhaps your lack of self-discipline, but certainly not your lifestyle.

Nor do I care to apologize. "Never explain, never complain. - Henry Ford"