Missionary Religions

[Steven]

yes alot of Xtians are motivated by the thought that everyone else is wrong.

because they think it makes them "right".

but some people simply share what they beleive when a door is open (ie an invitation) for the basic fact that as a follower of Christ they were commanded by him to do exactly that..."share". it can be a difficult thing to do with balance.

[phee]

So, you think they should not think like that?

Who should not think like what?

[Steven]

I don't care if they believe in fairy stories as long as they agree that current research and public opinion must be given more creedence than their fairy stories.

aw Brass, you went for the dig.

your setting rules here for what they can beleive as long as they also agree to your framework.

Just let them beleive. perhaps your own ideals will impress them in and of themselves. You impress me from time to time, and I beleive in some of those fairy tales....

I wouldn't mind it if there were more people like me, but I hate any sort of proselytizing. What I do believe in is having open discussions about beliefs with other people. There needs to be more of that in the world.

And yes, I do agree that proselytizing is a cause for much of the grief in the world. Whenever a person closes themselves off to any other worldview, not even trying to walk in other people's shoes, people tend to become resentful and angry. When that same person takes it to the next step and tries to convert those around him, the results can be even worse.

One of the things that I always wondered is this: if someone's one true God is so powerful, why does he need human subjects to go out and convert others to do his bidding? That just doesn't jive for me. I can't imagine a true, sentient God caring one lick about whether or not people believing in him. Otherwise, wouldn't he/it just have an insecurity complex? By the way, these last two questions I've brought up are just supposed to be kind of tongue-in-cheek. But still, I think that when you have all of these different religions trying to convert each other, it seems kind of ridiculous. To have such a narrow belief that only your way is the right way is what has led to things like the Crusades, 9/11, etc.

I agree with your statment about proselytizing.

although I also think that most of us do it in some form or the other.

And an effective witness of any lifestyle ultimately should be self sustaining in that it speaks for itself in the life of said belevier.

as for the why does God do whatever.......fair questions, good questions.

but there is also the chance that God simply does not think and do things as we do, and our effforts to box him up in a package that is more digestable is exaclty what he does not want.

[BrassFusion]

Steven, I love you because you don't seem to feel that our country should have fairy stories built into its constitutional law.

And if you do feel that way, you're wrong wrong wrong and you're sending our nation on a death spiral.

research and public opinion isn't "my" framework. it's just more logical to use that to base laws on than unjust dogma that has questionable basis in reality.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Phee,

Do you think Christians and Muslims should not think that everyone else is wrong?

[phee]

Phee,

Do you think Christians and Muslims should not think that everyone else is wrong?

It is not my business to tell people what to think... What I think however, is the fact that Christians and Muslims think that everyone else is wrong causes a lot of problems and harm, from my point of view.

[Steven]

Steven, I love you because you don't seem to feel that our country should have fairy stories built into its constitutional law.

And if you do feel that way, you're wrong wrong wrong and you're sending our nation on a death spiral.

research and public opinion isn't "my" framework. it's just more logical to use that to base laws on than unjust dogma that has questionable basis in reality.

your right, you do love me I mean I dont feel that way. But I would teach certain thgins I belevie to my children or mentorees and let them do what they must with it.....you gotta understand - I was brought up in an oppressive religeous environemtn where I had no say so or opinion, and i know thats not the way. But I can seperate God - from rigidity - from legalism - from power mongering - I see those things as human institutions.

for example I have said before that I am in theory - anti abortion.

BUT - I beleive in a womans right to choose legally. To steal that right of chocie away does not create a true conversion of thought and heart - it simply forces an action. its fake.

And - I also belevie in grace and that all men and women stand before god in the end....its not my call. I have no idea who is "saved" or unsaved. Nor do I worry about those things, I'm not God - thats his job.

I understand your meaning on a logical foundation. But its not always that simple. Some (or much??) of what i belevie will not fit into your ideas of logic. But you can still fit me into your life (and vice versa) and allow me my platform to draw from.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

It is not my business to tell people what to think... What I think however, is the fact that Christians and Muslims think that everyone else is wrong causes a lot of problems and harm, from my point of view.

Isn't that just a fancy way of saying that they should not think like that? Really, from reading this thread, thats the impression I get. Which, according to your own statements, means that even though you don't express those views, they aafect your attitude toward Christians and Muslims. So, your just as bad.

[phee]

Isn't that just a fancy way of saying that they should not think like that? Really, from reading this thread, thats the impression I get. Which, according to your own statements, means that even though you don't express those views, they aafect your attitude toward Christians and Muslims. So, your just as bad.

No actually...

It is my opinion... not a formula for perscribed behavior.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I have a thesaurus too. You can try to find fancy ways of saying it, but your belief, attitude, conclusion, inclination, notion, slant, thesis, thought, view affects your outward actions and attitude just as much as the Christian's and Muslim's affect thiers.

[BrassFusion]

It really depends on the person, Gary. Some people act on their belief that others are wrong and some do not. The people that DO act do it to different degrees. Don't go telling phee he's an evangelist when clearly he's not... Reserve your rhetoric for me if you're looking for an agnostic to persecute.

[phee]

I have a thesaurus too. You can try to find fancy ways of saying it, but your belief, attitude, conclusion, inclination, notion, slant, thesis, thought, view affects your outward actions and attitude just as much as the Christian's and Muslim's affect thiers.

Umm... OK I am trying to get what you are saying...

Are you saying that the fact that these religions assume that all other religions are incorrect... and me believing that this assumption on their part causes harm... makes me the same as them?

Or in other words.... Lets say I saw somebody fighting someone over there religious beliefs on my street, and I think "wow" I wish people didn't have to hurt each other over such things... makes me the same as the people fighting in the street?

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Are we not having a discussion in which you have stated that you believe that is a harmfull way to think? and if you do in fact think it harmfull, do you not then treat them differently than someone who does not think like that?

[phee]

Are we not having a discussion in which you have stated that you believe that is a harmfull way to think? and if you do in fact think it harmfull, do you not then treat them differently than someone who does not think like that?

Do you always answer questions with other questions?

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Do you always avoid answers?

[Msterbeau]

Are we not having a discussion in which you have stated that you believe that is a harmfull way to think? and if you do in fact think it harmfull, do you not then treat them differently than someone who does not think like that?

The harm is in the action.. not the thinking.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

It effects the way that they treat you... regardless of whether or not they try to convert you

Thoughts dictate actions. Phee's own words above are where this line of questions stem.

See, to me, this is another case of the pot and kettle.

[phee]

Do you always avoid answers?

I will take that as a "Yes" to my previous question...

And in answer your other question... (I suppose I will answer yours as you seem to not be comfortable in answering mine)

The actions involved (as marc said) from the attitude cause harm (sometimes subtly, sometimes not) And in the other question you asked... Do I think I am different? Well from where I stand I would say no... that would be hypocracy...

[torn asunder]

one can have opinions of the relative validity of anothers' belief systems, and yet not actively try to convince them to change their ways, yes? this would be the difference i believe phee was trying to highlight. i can think anything i want about anyone i want - i'm entitled to that, as is everyone - but the minute i try to push my beliefs on another (put them down for theirs, try to convert them, etc) i've crossed the line from passive to active... again, from what i've seen, this was the general implication i think phee was trying to get at. if these "missionary" (meaning: all non-believers must be converted, for whatever reason they deem appropriate) religions would be passive about their teachings instead of actively pursuing, condemning, converting, coercing, etc... we would have much less strife in the world.

is this fairly close, phee? i don't want to put words in your mouth, but that's what i get from it...

[Msterbeau]

one can have opinions of the relative validity of anothers' belief systems, and yet not actively try to convince them to change their ways, yes? this would be the difference i believe phee was trying to highlight. i can think anything i want about anyone i want - i'm entitled to that, as is everyone - but the minute i try to push my beliefs on another (put them down for theirs, try to convert them, etc) i've crossed the line from passive to active... again, from what i've seen, this was the general implication i think phee was trying to get at. if these "missionary" (meaning: all non-believers must be converted, for whatever reason they deem appropriate) religions would be passive about their teachings instead of actively pursuing, condemning, converting, coercing, etc... we would have much less strife in the world.

is this fairly close, phee? i don't want to put words in your mouth, but that's what i get from it...

Bing!!

[phee]

one can have opinions of the relative validity of anothers' belief systems, and yet not actively try to convince them to change their ways, yes? this would be the difference i believe phee was trying to highlight. i can think anything i want about anyone i want - i'm entitled to that, as is everyone - but the minute i try to push my beliefs on another (put them down for theirs, try to convert them, etc) i've crossed the line from passive to active... again, from what i've seen, this was the general implication i think phee was trying to get at. if these "missionary" (meaning: all non-believers must be converted, for whatever reason they deem appropriate) religions would be passive about their teachings instead of actively pursuing, condemning, converting, coercing, etc... we would have much less strife in the world.

is this fairly close, phee? i don't want to put words in your mouth, but that's what i get from it...

Yes this is very close...

And the other thing is that the "your wrong" attitude if carried around can effect ones treatment of others on a daily basis

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

but you seem to ignore the parts of what phee said that show his hypocracy.

Phee said that even if they don't try to convert anyone thier actions are dictated by thier thoughts.

Phee thinks they are wrong for thinking what they do, and by his owns logic, he treats them differently than anyone else.

[phee]

but you seem to ignore the parts of what phee said that show his hypocracy.

Phee said that even if they don't try to convert anyone thier actions are dictated by thier thoughts.

Phee thinks they are wrong for thinking what they do, and by his owns logic, he treats them differently than anyone else.

Did you read my last response?

[torn asunder]

Yes this is very close...

And the other thing is that the "your wrong" attitude if carried around can effect ones treatment of others on a daily basis

that attitude, in my experience, is only an issue if one is unable to accept that everyone is entitled to their own beliefs. when one can honestly say both "i'm at peace with myself and my beliefs" and "i understand that others are entitled to their own beliefs" without condemning them, who's right and wrong becomes a moot point.

[phee]

that attitude, in my experience, is only an issue if one is unable to accept that everyone is entitled to their own beliefs. when one can honestly say both "i'm at peace with myself and my beliefs" and "i understand that others are entitled to their own beliefs" without condemning them, who's right and wrong becomes a moot point.

yup... you have the right to think I am wrong... and I have the right to form an opinon based on that attitude