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  Gaf The Horse With Tears said:
but you seem to ignore the parts of what phee said that show his hypocracy.

Phee said that even if they don't try to convert anyone thier actions are dictated by thier thoughts.

Phee thinks they are wrong for thinking what they do, and by his owns logic, he treats them differently than anyone else.

what you seem to be saying (what i'm interpreting, which could be wrong) is that anyone who allows another of different faiths or beliefs to peacefully coexist with them is a hipocrit? you're saying that nobody can ever "agree to disagree" without being a hipocrit? or that nobody can see/accept the possible validity of another's beliefs, and or acknowledge that there might be mutliple paths which arrive at the same destination, without being a hipocrit?

perhaps i'm misunderstanding you...

  phee said:
yup... you have the right to think I am wrong... and I have the right to form an opinon based on that attitude

but what's wrong to me isn't necessarily to another, so how can i, in good conscience, decide right and wrong for another? i can only know what's right and what's wrong for me...

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and that does not change the fact that your opinion affects how you treat me, in this case. Just as you stated it would. Nor does it change the fact that following your own logic you now need to decide if you are the pot or the kettle.

Think about it. This whole thread (your action) is based your beleifs (your thoughts) on certian religions. Which, according to your own posts, means you will treat them differntly than someone not of that religion.

I'm not saying your thoughts and or actions are wrong. I am just pointing out that you are doing the exact same thing you accuse them of doing. Which is to say, you have Judged them just as they have judged you and that will affect how you treat them.

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  torn asunder said:
what you seem to be saying (what i'm interpreting, which could be wrong) is that anyone who allows another of different faiths or beliefs to peacefully coexist with them is a hipocrit? you're saying that nobody can ever "agree to disagree" without being a hipocrit? or that nobody can see/accept the possible validity of another's beliefs, and or acknowledge that there might be mutliple paths which arrive at the same destination, without being a hipocrit?

perhaps i'm misunderstanding you...

but what's wrong to me isn't necessarily to another, so how can i, in good conscience, decide right and wrong for another? i can only know what's right and what's wrong for me...

Bing!!!

  Gaf The Horse With Tears said:
and that does not change the fact that your opinion affects how you treat me, in this case. Just as you stated it would. Nor does it change the fact that following your own logic you now need to decide if you are the pot or the kettle.

Think about it. This whole thread (your action) is based your beleifs (your thoughts) on certian religions. Which, according to your own posts, means you will treat them differntly than someone not of that religion.

I'm not saying your thoughts and or actions are wrong. I am just pointing out that you are doing the exact same thing you accuse them of doing. Which is to say, you have Judged them just as they have judged you and that will affect how you treat them.

And as I have stated... I am a hypocrit to a large degree... I don't know anyone who is not

To dumb it down way too much I am sure...

If someone says: well I don't like you... and now because you know I don't like you... and you have formed an opinion based on that knowledge... which makes you and me the same...

I don't buy that sorry

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  Gaf The Horse With Tears said:
and that does not change the fact that your opinion affects how you treat me, in this case. Just as you stated it would. Nor does it change the fact that following your own logic you now need to decide if you are the pot or the kettle.

Think about it. This whole thread (your action) is based your beleifs (your thoughts) on certian religions. Which, according to your own posts, means you will treat them differntly than someone not of that religion.

I'm not saying your thoughts and or actions are wrong. I am just pointing out that you are doing the exact same thing you accuse them of doing. Which is to say, you have Judged them just as they have judged you and that will affect how you treat them.

Though I get what you're saying, I think you're making the assumption that he WILL treat others differently because of his thoughts. That may or may not happen. I've had perfectly reasonable conversations (From my side) with evangelical Christians without letting my childhood experiences (pain) cause me to be angry or intolerant. That's the line that needs crossing before hypocricy is commited.

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  Gaf The Horse With Tears said:
I'm not saying your thoughts and or actions are wrong. I am just pointing out that you are doing the exact same thing you accuse them of doing. Which is to say, you have Judged them just as they have judged you and that will affect how you treat them.

it seems you're missing the point - the main idea of this thread didn't have to do with contradicting thoughts, it had to do with religion (x-tianity and islam, speicifically, but not solely) being missionary religions, in which the entire goal is to convert or eliminate everyone else. i have yet to see anyone actively try to convert anyone else on this board, which to me, means that i am not the same as they are. i don't personally hold the beliefs that the infidels must be destroyed, or something similar. there is a difference between judging (making a decision on a subject based on one's own research, experiences and beliefs) and condemning, (actively badmouthing people to others, and to their face) and attemtping to force one's beliefs on others. if you aren't able to see that difference, i can't really see any reason to continue this discussion.

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  Msterbeau said:
The harm is in the action.. not the thinking.

Hear, hear! Its how you act not what you believe really reguardless....

I want to be honored and left alone with my beliefs. Just like everyone who thinks they are right. The difference is, I don't want to change anyone else. It is the people who can't just except maybe there is no one way that your having a problem with am I right?

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It's curious that this omnipotent bastard needs your hopeless ass to go around and spread his word. And why do people need to go to a place of worship on the sabbath, anyway? Isn't the fucker all-knowing? Well, it's just that we see your religions on the television everyday...if we begin to think that there's something to it all, don't worry, we know where to send our money.

-Say what you want about Aethists, at least they're not at your door at 10a on a Saturday thumping some tacky, gawdy volume of Origin of Species claiming "it could change your life"...

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  Paper Hearts said:
It's curious that this omnipotent bastard needs your hopeless ass to go around and spread his word. And why do people need to go to a place of worship on the sabbath, anyway? Isn't the fucker all-knowing? Well, it's just that we see your religions on the television everyday...if we begin to think that there's something to it all, don't worry, we know where to send our money.

-Say what you want about Aethists, at least they're not at your door at 10a on a Saturday thumping some tacky, gawdy volume of Origin of Species claiming "it could change your life"...

there are many exceptions to this general point of view though...

neither myself nor anyone from sizable my church is at your door saturday morning.

if you dont want to give financially (and really why would anyone give who is not an active part of the process???) then don't. If you do, do. there is ALOT more that goes on besides keeping the lights on and paying staff (none of whom are rich or even well off). Thousands of people get fed each year just here in the Canton area on a week to week basis out of a large warehouse. Cars get fixed. Rents get paid, heat gets turned back on, trust me that stuff costs alot of coin. Its easy to see the abuse on TV - its definately out there. But in general most of you guys have no idea how much really does go on behind the scenes that is right, and good, and specifically direceted to aid others, because nobody's alerting the media and turning it into a circus.

as for the why do we have to worship in a church on the sabbath......you dont HAVE to do anything.

why do you get togethor with yrou friends?

why do you or anyone go to CC?

why are there legion halls?

bars?

bowling alleys?

the church - is simply a place for the gathering of community.

its the hub. and to be honest from there, ALOT more gettign togethor and doing things as a community or sub-communities takes place in the homes of said church members in small groups.

did I forget to add that my ass is not hopeless?

my ass woke up with a whole bunch hope just this morning before I even had any coffee ......

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  Homicidalheathen said:
Hear, hear! Its how you act not what you believe really reguardless....

I want to be honored and left alone with my beliefs. Just like everyone who thinks they are right. The difference is, I don't want to change anyone else. It is the people who can't just except maybe there is no one way that your having a problem with am I right?

and beleive it or not HH, neither do I (want to change anyone else).

yes, technically I think my beleif system is "right".... but I dont walk around with an "i'm right and your wrong boner". And I dont sit and spend time and energy concocting ideas on how i can change somebody.

overall, my life is supposed to be lived as a testimony. it is my form of missionary service. if someone wnats to know more about it - how it works and why and what I'm doing, all they have to do is ask. I'll share at that point. Or if were having a mutual discussion then I'll offer up my points of view.

but there is no conversion chart in heaven.

I get no brownie points for converts.

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  Steven said:
and beleive it or not HH, neither do I (want to change anyone else).

yes, technically I think my beleif system is "right".... but I dont walk around with an "i'm right and your wrong boner". And I dont sit and spend time and energy concocting ideas on how i can change somebody.

overall, my life is supposed to be lived as a testimony. it is my form of missionary service. if someone wnats to know more about it - how it works and why and what I'm doing, all they have to do is ask. I'll share at that point. Or if were having a mutual discussion then I'll offer up my points of view.

but there is no conversion chart in heaven.

I get no brownie points for converts.

And sadlly for those of us who don't subscribe to dogmatic faith, you're an exception to the rule of how they behave. My learning and experience is that many are either evangelical or complete hypocrits.

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  Msterbeau said:
And sadlly for those of us who don't subscribe to dogmatic faith, you're an exception to the rule of how they behave. My learning and experience is that many are either evangelical or complete hypocrits.

sad but true Marc. sad but true.

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  Steven said:
I agree with your statment about proselytizing.

although I also think that most of us do it in some form or the other.

And an effective witness of any lifestyle ultimately should be self sustaining in that it speaks for itself in the life of said belevier.

as for the why does God do whatever.......fair questions, good questions.

but there is also the chance that God simply does not think and do things as we do, and our effforts to box him up in a package that is more digestable is exaclty what he does not want.

Damn! I missed a lot of this conversation! Oh well.

I understand what you're saying about your belief in God and how perhaps he doesn't want to be understood; however, that's always been the crux of why I can't get into Christianity. It's fine for me that other people can accept that out of blind faith, but I need some logic and rationality entered into the argument of why God does what he does. If we are truly created in God's image, as stated in the bible, then it seems that our logic should be flowing at least along similar lines as God's. Of course, there's the corruption of man and all that other stuff that can be factored in and then we're getting into an interpretation of Christianity issue that was fairly well-covered in the "Are we so small in the universe" thread. Either way, the way my mind works does not click with this kind of God.

Back to the original topic, I do agree that everyone does proselytizing to an extent; however, I would like to think that it's in the intent and situation of how it's done. If the intent of it is to show other people how wrong they are, then it will play out in a negative way for me (and many others). The references that I brought up in my original post (Crusades, 9/11) are still valid here. However, I suppose that it can be done in a more positive way, where a person is trying to show how their beliefs have had such a positive impact on their lives. I can get on board with that a little more. If we expand the definition of proselytizing merely to someone explaining their own belief system, then this is the most positive form of it that I can find. For instance, Steven, when you describe how Christianity has impacted your life, I do not think of you trying to convert me. When I explain my beliefs (or lack thereof), I would hope that you feel that I am not trying to convert you. And this also goes back to my original post, where open discussions about the nature of the universe are the time and place to describe what's right for you and what's working.

The uninvited proselytizing of someone who's trying to prove you wrong is very unattractive. Heck, even the uninvited proselytizing of someone who's trying to prove the positive impact of their belief system can be pretty annoying. There's a time and a place for discussion of beliefs and (IMHO), I think it's in an open forum such as this. I revel in it. :thumbup:

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HD: Your point about how a person proselytizes reminds of an example.

I'm sure many of us here have seen the anti-abortion protestors carrying large signs with the bloody remains of a fetus. Does that convince you that their cause is right? Not me... If they want me to believe in the sanctity of an unborn child, why not be postive about it and show an image of a healthy, happy child?

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  Msterbeau said:
HD: Your point about how a person proselytizes reminds of an example.

I'm sure many of us here have seen the anti-abortion protestors carrying large signs with the bloody remains of a fetus. Does that convince you that their cause is right? Not me... If they want me to believe in the sanctity of an unborn child, why not be postive about it and show an image of a healthy, happy child?

I have a freind in california who is behind the driving billboard campaign that shows aborted fetuses. He beleives in his cause - that being primarily - to dispel the notion that early term fetuses doint feel pain and are not developed enough to call human. He shows a tiny arm and hand that has been aborted - being under the size of a qaurter, almost completley developed. He became involved in the cause - because his wife had a diagnosed miscarriage, she had a Dand C, the tissue was missed in the D and C, and they found a heartbeat a month later, who turned out to be his little girl Jessica. That "tissue" - was supposed to have been aborted in a clinical fashion under an otherwise understandable medical emergency.

Since then - he's been on the bus for saving unborn children.

He has asked for my help inthe past both finincially and as a co-spokesperson.

I could not help him.

I understood his motivation and courage - and I know he's nto a blind zealout who assails pregnant mothers who are set to terminate their pregnancies. The things I have seen the media say about him and his campaign are completely false and misleading and are part of a counter agenda. Never (I mean never) do they ask him for his personal story. And his quotes are 99.9% of the time selectively edited. They keep the religeous part in print and toss the rest and call it reporting. I know this man personally, know his values, his lifestyle, his methods. He was also a great help to me personally when Laura and I had our misccariage. He is not in any way what he has been presented to be.

But .... I still cant behind his visual method of connection.

ALthough I understand it - it's not me. ANd I do not feel compelled by God to be involved. He does however - feel so compelled. So despite my concerns, and communication about them, I have to step out of the way, and let him do what he wants to do. He accepts the outcome and it is not a holier than though self righteous haughty dismissal of opposing positions. In my mind he is in the trenches doing what he feels he must do, and he is taking his shots along the way. I respect that, because I know it is not an easy path for him to walk. And he also knows my position on being both anti-abortiona nd yet pro feedom of choice, one he does not agree with, or even understand, and yet we still are very much brothers in arms so to speak.

I also know for a fact, that people have contacted him and thanked him, and that his "ministry" led them to second thoughts that in turn led them to keep their unborn children. That too I cannot deny.

does what he does cause pain to others?

yes.

does what he does help others?

they themsleves have said - yes.

thank God that I am not God. its just not that simple of a call to make.

I am not obligated by my faith to join his cause.

(if) God chose him to do this thing - thats between him and God.

(if) God calls me to some sort of path....that too, is between myself and God.

yes there are zealouts, hurtful ones who are causing harm.

but we tend to paint with broad brushstrokes.

there are also good men (and women) who take it on the chin on a daily basis for what they beleive in.

they pay their prices, trust me.

its just not as simple as it seems.

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  Steven said:
I have a freind in california who is behind the driving billboard campaign that shows aborted fetuses. He beleives in his cause - that being primarily - to dispel the notion that early term fetuses doint feel pain and are not developed enough to call human. He shows a tiny arm and hand that has been aborted - being under the size of a qaurter, almost completley developed. He became involved in the cause - because his wife had a diagnosed miscarriage, she had a Dand C, the tissue was missed in the D and C, and they found a heartbeat a month later, who turned out to be his little girl Jessica. That "tissue" - was supposed to have been aborted in a clinical fashion under an otherwise understandable medical emergency.

Since then - he's been on the bus for saving unborn children.

He has asked for my help inthe past both finincially and as a co-spokesperson.

I could not help him.

I understood his motivation and courage - and I know he's nto a blind zealout who assails pregnant mothers who are set to terminate their pregnancies. The things I have seen the media say about him and his campaign are completely false and misleading and are part of a counter agenda. Never (I mean never) do they ask him for his personal story. And his quotes are 99.9% of the time selectively edited. They keep the religeous part in print and toss the rest and call it reporting. I know this man personally, know his values, his lifestyle, his methods. He was also a great help to me personally when Laura and I had our misccariage. He is not in any way what he has been presented to be.

But .... I still cant behind his visual method of connection.

ALthough I understand it - it's not me. ANd I do not feel compelled by God to be involved. He does however - feel so compelled. So despite my concerns, and communication about them, I have to step out of the way, and let him do what he wants to do. He accepts the outcome and it is not a holier than though self righteous haughty dismissal of opposing positions. In my mind he is in the trenches doing what he feels he must do, and he is taking his shots along the way. I respect that, because I know it is not an easy path for him to walk. And he also knows my position on being both anti-abortiona nd yet pro feedom of choice, one he does not agree with, or even understand, and yet we still are very much brothers in arms so to speak.

I also know for a fact, that people have contacted him and thanked him, and that his "ministry" led them to second thoughts that in turn led them to keep their unborn children. That too I cannot deny.

does what he does cause pain to others?

yes.

does what he does help others?

they themsleves have said - yes.

thank God that I am not God. its just not that simple of a call to make.

I am not obligated by my faith to join his cause.

(if) God chose him to do this thing - thats between him and God.

(if) God calls me to some sort of path....that too, is between myself and God.

yes there are zealouts, hurtful ones who are causing harm.

but we tend to paint with broad brushstrokes.

there are also good men (and women) who take it on the chin on a daily basis for what they beleive in.

they pay their prices, trust me.

its just not as simple as it seems.

Good points... And this is why I said "Not me". That kind of imagery doesn't convince me. Others may make the connection.

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^The Church of Later Day Saints is not sizable to you? Jehova's Witness are not sizable? Christian Evangelicals are not sizable? Not to mention Jews for Jesus and the Krishnas do not go door-to-door? How about Jesuit Catholics?

Well, my point is that compared to this omnipotent god, you really are quite hopless; your god doesn't need help, if you believe he's all-powerfull, then he doesn't need your help, you're just a man. God doesn't need missionaries, only the church or the synagogue or the mosque needs missionaries. And that is curious, because if God is all-knowing, all-seeing, then these places are unnecessary--God already knows that you care, you don't have to go anywhere. So why do these people believe that you must attend ceremonies or you'll end up in hell? It's just fishy.

I suppose that people don't publisize that some religious people pay each other's bills because it's perfectly normal, there's nothing special about it, in a sense. All sorts of people do things like that. It's not exlusive to any one set of beliefs. And I suppose that's what's so terrible--these people are so self-righteous. These people believe that without Jesus or Mohamed (for instance) you can't have happiness or success. In reality, there are billions of happy and successfull people of many different beliefs. It's ridiculous.

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  Paper Hearts said:
^The Church of Later Day Saints is not sizable to you? Jehova's Witness are not sizable? Christian Evangelicals are not sizable? Not to mention Jews for Jesus and the Krishnas do not go door-to-door? How about Jesuit Catholics?

Well, my point is that compared to this omnipotent god, you really are quite hopless; your god doesn't need help, if you believe he's all-powerfull, then he doesn't need your help, you're just a man. God doesn't need missionaries, only the church or the synagogue or the mosque needs missionaries. And that is curious, because if God is all-knowing, all-seeing, then these places are unnecessary--God already knows that you care, you don't have to go anywhere. So why do these people believe that you must attend ceremonies or you'll end up in hell? It's just fishy.

I suppose that people don't publisize that some religious people pay each other's bills because it's perfectly normal, there's nothing special about it, in a sense. All sorts of people do things like that. It's not exlusive to any one set of beliefs. And I suppose that's what's so terrible--these people are so self-righteous. These people believe that without Jesus or Mohamed (for instance) you can't have happiness or success. In reality, there are billions of happy and successfull people of many different beliefs. It's ridiculous.

Good post mate...

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  Paper Hearts said:
^The Church of Later Day Saints is not sizable to you? Jehova's Witness are not sizable? Christian Evangelicals are not sizable? Not to mention Jews for Jesus and the Krishnas do not go door-to-door? How about Jesuit Catholics?

Well, my point is that compared to this omnipotent god, you really are quite hopless; your god doesn't need help, if you believe he's all-powerfull, then he doesn't need your help, you're just a man. God doesn't need missionaries, only the church or the synagogue or the mosque needs missionaries. And that is curious, because if God is all-knowing, all-seeing, then these places are unnecessary--God already knows that you care, you don't have to go anywhere. So why do these people believe that you must attend ceremonies or you'll end up in hell? It's just fishy.

I suppose that people don't publisize that some religious people pay each other's bills because it's perfectly normal, there's nothing special about it, in a sense. All sorts of people do things like that. It's not exlusive to any one set of beliefs. And I suppose that's what's so terrible--these people are so self-righteous. These people believe that without Jesus or Mohamed (for instance) you can't have happiness or success. In reality, there are billions of happy and successfull people of many different beliefs. It's ridiculous.

well Bud, you've said a whole buncha stuff atht I did not say, but again, the brushtrokes are broad.

my point boiled down: consider the excpetions to the rule, they exist in great number.

YES I agree with you that God dones not need me. Man I have never argued that point. God (if he exists and I'm trying to be cool here) does what he wants how he wants to do it. And he uses people and events. And I'm not God. if it involves me, great. If it dont, great.

YES there are many many many happy people without Jesus or Mohammed. I also dont argue that and its not even a part of my focus.....I feel like I'm arguing a point that I'm not in disagreement with.

YES all sorts of people are charitable to one another.

but you mentioned money.

so I mentioned where that money goes and how.

Sort thought it was a point you were making. I supported it with an agreement and description. Yeah, we spend money. alot. good thigns happen from it. alot. its ok with you that we do that right? cause its ok with me what other people do with theirs....

NO I dont have to go anywhere.

but I love my church and its people and what we do togethor, it brings me great fulfillment, so I go. Just had dinner with some churchfolk last night. Veal with garlic and red sauce. I loved it. Cool folks, we laughed alot and drank some red wine. I loved that too. I'll see them this sunday probably, and I'll love that too. Its not a consiracy Bro, were simply part of something. Notice that none of us went over to your house to preach ?(we were at Brass's house and she threw tomatoes at me) So my suggestion is that there are likewise millions of us who just do what we do....were not out to getcha. the ones that are (like the JW's)....well, they are not us. So......make a little room us too ... fair enough?

And finnaly.....man you will never hear me talk about who is or is not going to hell or even if I think hell is a literal place. And if theres at least one of me like that.......theres a good chance I was influenced by others who likewise would never do that to you or think that of you.

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  Paper Hearts said:
I didn't say that all religious people are like that, this thread is about missionary religions. What I'm saying is that it's redundant and pretensious to go around preaching the word of God. Because God doesn't need man...and man doesn't need God.

This could almost start another thread on it's own.... heh

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