Missionary Religions

[phee]

It's true. Unless you fear Hell, what do you need God for? But Hell only speaks against God not for him. How does someone that is all-knowing, us create, of his own accord, and in his image, and then feel fit to punish? It doesn't add up. But that is another topic.

Unless said god *drumroll* has flaws and such and is not perfect... kind of the kid with the ant farm... much more like the Greek Pantheon...

I am sorry but I have never liked the "God sends the meat and the Devil cooks" mentallity... it makes them both sound well.... the same.

But back to the topic (sorry to jack my own thread) the concept of missionary religion does seem not to fit... (and Steven you are the exception to the rule as far as what I have seen... and God bless you for it!)

[Steven]

It's true. Unless you fear Hell, what do you need God for? But Hell only speaks against God not for him. How does someone that is all-knowing, us create, of his own accord, and in his image, and then feel fit to punish? It doesn't add up. But that is another topic.

*sniff sniff*

i smell me a Jack comin....

hard question to answer senor.....

why does a parent have a child when he knows said child will exhaust his resources, energy, etc. and will probably have a season of rebellion in the teen years, and because that child is free willed there is no guaranty of the child's developing and embracing that same parents ideology?

maybe just because. that parent wants a connection. and a stamp of himself to impress upon all things.

and maybe I'm wrong, but I think that if my own Father could have seen into the future and pre-determined all that I would put him (and a shitload of others) through.......he'd have had me anyway. maybe jsut because.

my overall impressions of God are biblically based.

and there are a great many referances to the emotions of God.

[phee]

*sniff sniff*

i smell me a Jack comin....

hard question to answer senor.....

why does a parent have a child when he knows said child will exhaust his resources, energy, etc. and will probably have a season of rebellion in the teen years, and because that child is free willed there is no guaranty of the child's developing and embracing that same parents ideology?

maybe just because. that parent wants a connection. and a stamp of himself to impress upon all things.

and maybe I'm wrong, but I think that if my own Father could have seen into the future and pre-determined all that I would put him (and a shitload of others) through.......he'd have had me anyway. maybe jsut because.

my overall impressions of God are biblically based.

and there are a great many referances to the emotions of God.

Why would god need to leave a stamp... if he is all and controls all.... who is he leaving the stamp for? himself?

[phee]

This is a good book in this subject: God's Debris - by Scott Adams

[torn asunder]

why does a parent have a child when he knows said child will exhaust his resources, energy, etc. and will probably have a season of rebellion in the teen years, and because that child is free willed there is no guaranty of the child's developing and embracing that same parents ideology?

precisely why i'm not having children... (well, ok, one of the reasons...)

[Steven]

Why would god need to leave a stamp... if he is all and controls all.... who is he leaving the stamp for? himself?

I dont know why, honestly.

but he just seems to desire to do exactly that......creating man in his image, teaching his people rigid historical structure and commitment of events and writings to memory for recall by the Levites, much of what passes onward to the first born, all 7 covenents, I dont know Phee.....for some reason this seems to be important to God. You see (or I see) a distinct pattern.

but I cant explain why.

[phee]

I dont know why, honestly.

but he just seems to desire to do exactly that......creating man in his image, teaching his people rigid historical structure and commitment of events and writings to memory for recall by the Levites, much of what passes onward to the first born, all 7 covenents, I dont know Phee.....for some reason this seems to be important to God. You see (or I see) a distinct pattern.

but I cant explain why.

You can dictate the desires of God seem to be?

and what about women in her image?

And what about the fact that the rigid historical things that are sighted have been changed thousands of times and have thousands of different meanings...?

I will never be presumptious enough to dictate what the will of the Universe/God is... or what it's desires may or may not be... that to me is a bit of insult to the powers that be.

[Paper Hearts]

The difference is that God, even realizing that people by nature will have a desire to act autonomous, will punish people not just anyway, but tortuously, and for the rest of eternity. If I know that it's to be expected that my daughter some day wants to think for herself, I can't justify acting like God, I wouldn't torture her for the rest of existance...because I know that morals, even mine and God's, are just relative, after all. And really, I'd like her to be her own person even if we're complete opposites in end. I congratulate you if you can make sense out damnation, but to me it's just one more reason why these types of religions seem so unplausable and as I've said, if that's all I need God for, to avoid Hell, well it just doens't seem worth it to me to associate with someone like that.

[Steven]

You can dictate the desires of God seem to be?

and what about women in her image?

And what about the fact that the rigid historical things that are sighted have been changed thousands of times and have thousands of different meanings...?

I will never be presumptious enough to dictate what the will of the Universe/God is... or what it's desires may or may not be... that to me is a bit of insult to the powers that be.

I know it sounds presumptious. I'm cool with that.

and no its not my intention to dicate anything. Its just my perception based on the patterns that I feel i have seen.

But you need to understand Phee, that I worship this God YHWH,and I search out a great deal thru what you know is the Bible. So...based on THAT god, and THAT gathering of text, I have drawn certain conclusions. I dont think thats a big stretch for someone like me, because I'm not caught up in the possibilities of misinterpretation of text and all of tha tjuicy stuff. I pretty much feel very safe with whats written, which gives me a constant to return to, a familair foundation that I can rest in.

In that constant - there is DEFINATELY a very consistent theme of man not only reconciling his relationship with God, but also in developing a sense of intimacy with his nautre and wishes. For example, certain patriarchs like David, Caleb, Moses, Saul, etc. exemplified. I've been taught, and beleive, that to "know" the will of God and to constatnly seek out that type of relationship is exaclty what he wants. Over time and possibly over a few drinks Phee, you might get to know "me" better. And in so doing will have certain hunches about how I may or may not feel about certain situations, and maybe even hunches on how I might go about dealing with them. Thats what you get out of relationships....a certain degree of knowledge. thats a good thign.

By the way, it aint always easy. You dont always know, and yes there are sometimes long periods of silence.

Oh and the image of man being in teh image of God.....does not mean that woman was not ALSO created in his image. In fact the text is a little strange and a littel dry in its verbage at the point. Man, and Woman, he called "MAN" via the Hebrew text. I dont totally grasp it. But there is no distinct seperation between the two.

[Steven]

The difference is that God, even realizing that people by nature will have a desire to act autonomous, will punish people not just anyway, but tortuously, and for the rest of eternity. If I know that it's to be expected that my daughter some day wants to think for herself, I can't justify acting like God, I wouldn't torture her for the rest of existance...because I know that morals, even mine and God's, are just relative, after all. And really, I'd like her to be her own person even if we're complete opposites in end. I congratulate you if you can make sense out damnation, but to me it's just one more reason why these types of religions seem so unplausable and as I've said, if that's all I need God for, to avoid Hell, well it just doens't seem worth it to me to associate with someone like that.

well, I do feel a bit lumped in here Paper......even though I understand yrou frustration I dont really share in all of it.

First - I'm not a beleiver in morals being relative. I beleive in certain absolutes. I know this is divisive and its not my intention, but I beleive what I do.

Balance that with Grace, and the many examples Christ himself as he chose the low lifes to love. There msut be somethign to that....perhaps more than we Xtians realize.

Next - I'm also not a beleiver in the cocnept that anyone who does not accept Christ will be punished in hell to burn forever. I'm also not a big supporter of the teachings on hell/ghehenna either, I think they are vague at best biblically, and much personal expounding has taken place by those who seek to control others.

Next - I dont want to be congragulated on anything and I have not made sense ouot of many thigns that may suprise you. Someone like me, with the certain degree of strength that I belevie I have, still struggles, still wrestles with the concepts of his faith, still is tested at teh core of his beleifs. I have said this before and I'll say it again....its hard to be a Christian. At least the kind that I am. I dont know that you can understand that and know that I still remain what I am. I dont know either, that I can explain it. I am both drawn to and pushed back, by many things within my Xtian walk. I reconcile whatever I must, a littel at a time.

I can tell you this much though Bro: tha a man like me does not need god for fear of the afterlife and possible punishment and my desire to avoid it. That thought never, literally never enters my mind.

[phee]

Always a pleasure Steven

[Fierce Critter]

I don't care if they believe in fairy stories as long as they agree that current research and public opinion must be given more creedence than their fairy stories.

Can you expand on the "public opinion" part of that, please?

[BrassFusion]

The popular vote regarding issues of ambiguous ethics, like abortion/gay rights and shit like that.

Gay rights in particular... I was deeply disappointed in 2004 when all the states that prop'd amendments to their state constitutions banning gay marriage passed. But the people had spoken, so there's not much you can do about it.

If the props were the opposite and the voting had gone the other way, however, you KNOW christian "family" groups would have pitched bitches up and down and tried to reverse the rulings (despite the popular vote), because their instruction manual says that gay is WRONG and they should be as far from "gay" as possible. or at least they interpret it as such.

[BrassFusion]

This might be the first time EVER i double posted... damn.

[Fierce Critter]

The popular vote regarding issues of ambiguous ethics, like abortion/gay rights and shit like that.

Gay rights in particular... I was deeply disappointed in 2004 when all the states that prop'd amendments to their state constitutions banning gay marriage passed. But the people had spoken, so there's not much you can do about it.

If the props were the opposite and the voting had gone the other way, however, you KNOW christian "family" groups would have pitched bitches up and down and tried to reverse the rulings (despite the popular vote), because their instruction manual says that gay is WRONG and they should be as far from "gay" as possible. or at least they interpret it as such.

Well, isn't that pretty much Christians with their "fairy stories" being in control because their opinion is the most popular one in the U.S.?

This subject came up on this board before. Some of us disagree that majority rule is the right way to go all the time.

There are some things NOBODY should really rule on, methinks. But that definitely is a whole 'nother thread.

[Guest Game of Chance]

I beleive in certain absolutes.

I'm really not starting shit...however...

That is the fundamental difference between me and you.

If (hypothetically, and I think the quantum physicists would agree with me here) the Universe is constantly changing, how could there ever be absolutes?

[phee]

Do you believe in the absolute: that there are no absolutes?

[Guest Game of Chance]

I don't "believe" in anything. I think it is probable that since the Universe is in constant change, it is theoretically impossible to have absolutes, period.

[phee]

I don't "believe" in anything. I think it is probable that since the Universe is in constant change, it is theoretically impossible to have absolutes, period.

That is probably the best way I have ever heard that question answered....

[Guest Game of Chance]

That is probably the best way I have ever heard that question answered....

[Guest Game of Chance]

Actually, when I think about it, that realization caused me to become a Taoist.

[phee]

Actually, when I think about it, that realization caused me to become a Taoist.

yeah... but they have a cream for that now

[Guest Game of Chance]

yeah... but they have a cream for that now

lol...Oh good, I tried the salve and it only caused a rash.

[Steven]

I'm really not starting shit...however...

That is the fundamental difference between me and you.

If (hypothetically, and I think the quantum physicists would agree with me here) the Universe is constantly changing, how could there ever be absolutes?

yes, the fundamental difference.

and the absolutes I'm referrring to are within the concepts of the God to man relationship. Regardless of what is unfolding around me in the universe, the core of my beleifs are based relationally, not theoretically.

We (you and I Steve) draw from different sources and value systems in order to make our decisions and in order to visualize many things. but (especially here in this place which I have grown to love) in my case, I know the things I bring up apply to only me.

which is fine, as I beleive in the unique attributes of my relationship with God, and in the unique attributes fo others relationships with God.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

um.. it's absolutly not the same as it was one second ago.