Who Has Killed More?

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Well... let’s limit this to modern times....

Mao Ze-Dong had 49million people killed in the name of Marxism/Communism ... score one for the Left

Joseph Stalin had 13million people killed in the name of Socialism... score another one for the Left.

Adolf Hitler had 12 million people killed in the name of Socialism... hrmm... I'm seeing a pattern here.

Hideki Tojo had 5 million people killed in the name of Imperialism.. well.. there is one for the Right.....

Pol Pot had 1.7 million people killed in the name of Maoism (Marxism).... seems the left is winning

Kim Il Sung 1.6 million killed in the name of Juche Idea (Socialism)... ok... again.. another point of for the Left.

Menghistu had 1.5 million killed in the name of... I don’t know.. technically he was a communist... another for the Left.

Ismail Enver had 1.2 million killed.. not really sure what you would consider his party... they were considered "progressive" so I would assume Left.... I wont score this one.

Yakubu Gowon had 1 million people killed... I think his politics fell more toward the Right... so score one for the right....

Wow... for the "Left" being such a bleeding heart kind of movement... they sure have killed a shit load of people over the years.

[torn asunder]

funny - i don't see anything in here about the x-tian 'crusades"... or what about all the native americans that were killed when the white man" came to the americas? i'm sure i could come up with more, but i get the sense that this wouldn't help the one-sided prtrayal you're going for...

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

as noted... I went with modern times.. the last 100 years.

[Msterbeau]

I personally view every one of them as fascist dictators. They espoused socialist ideas but in reality that's not what their "governments" were about. Let's score them as nut cases and the people who went along with them same...

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I also stopped at anything below 1 million.

The Inquisition was responsible for about 135,000.. but that varies by 20-30 thousand depending on the historian.

Some where around 11.5 million Native Americans were killed during the European invasion. Most were killed by the Spanish and that was all Greed.. no politics involved.

The Crusades were Wars... started by the Muslims... My list is of civilians killed and it did not happen within the last 100 years.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Fascism is not what you think it is.

[torn asunder]

I also stopped at anything below 1 million.

The Inquisition was responsible for about 135,000.. but that varies by 20-30 thousand depending on the historian.

Some where around 11.5 million Native Americans were killed during the European invasion. Most were killed by the Spanish and that was all Greed.. no politics involved.

The Crusades were Wars... started by the Muslims... My list is of civilians killed and it did not happen within the last 100 years.

and my point was that if you limit your dataset correctly, you can prove pretty much anything you want to...

[phee]

and my point was that if you limit your dataset correctly, you can prove pretty much anything you want to...

I have not heard Hitler refered to as socialist very often... But Stalin yes.

[Msterbeau]

I have not heard Hitler refered to as socialist very often... But Stalin yes.

True... But that was all propaganda on his part. The reality is that Russia under Stalin was a dictatorship.. as were most of these characters.

[phee]

True... But that was all propaganda on his part. The reality is that Russia under Stalin was a dictatorship.. as were most of these characters.

Yes.... Calling Stalin a leftist is kind of like calling the Native American extermination a minor tiff...

Siting Hilter as a way to discredit the left is an interesting approach... almost as bad as using Hitler to discredit the right

[Msterbeau]

Here's some questions I have: Are people in times of hardship (I think all of the left-leaning regimes mentioned came about during periods of severe hardship in their respective countries) prone to believing in a more socialist agenda under these circumstances? If so... do they blind themselves to the fact that all their rights are being taken away? Were there people who protested that fact? Were they killed or imprisoned? Were THOSE people on the left or right?

[phee]

Here's some questions I have: Are people in times of hardship (I think all of the left-leaning regimes mentioned came about during periods of severe hardship in their respective countries) prone to believing in a more socialist agenda under these circumstances? If so... do they blind themselves to the fact that all their rights are being taken away? Were there people who protested the that fact? Were they killed or imprisoned? Were THOSE people on the left or right?

Yes I agree... To simply call these dictators "The Left" really kind of ignores the complexity, and is a bit oversimplifying things...

If I were to say "Christianity caused the Chrusades" that would be oversimplifying it far too much... because it ignores the ecomomics, politics and social structures of the Judao Christian world at that time.... But yes the name of Christianity was used... much the same way that "leftist propoganda" is/was used by dictators throughout history... Does the fact that Christianity was used throughout history as a tool for distruction make it "bad"? of course not.... anymore than the fact that dictators used socalism and leftist propoganda makes either bad.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I'm only trying to show that a very large portion of Evil that has happened in the modern world has been done in the name of some Leftists ideal.

and Marc.. yeah... these people came to power in times of trouble for thier nations... and like happens so often with the left... anyone that disagrees is put to death.

Torn.. I am limiting to the Modern world because in times past they had nothing like the current political world. Politics as we know it did not exist.

I didn't expect anyone to like this. Noone who is part of "the left" is going to like finding out that the top 10 murders of all time.. almost to the man... were leftists. You either accepted Socialism/Marxism/Communism or you died.

[BrassFusion]

I'm only trying to show that a very large portion of Evil that has happened in the modern world has been done in the name of some Leftists ideal.

and Marc.. yeah... these people came to power in times of trouble for thier nations... and like happens so often with the left... anyone that disagrees is put to death.

Torn.. I am limiting to the Modern world because in times past they had nothing like the current political world. Politics as we know it did not exist.

I didn't expect anyone to like this. Noone who is part of "the left" is going to like finding out that the top 10 murders of all time.. almost to the man... were leftists. You either accepted Socialism/Marxism/Communism or you died.

ya its almost like democrats r all killers =( they kill babies at lest

[phee]

Well... let’s limit this to modern times....

Mao Ze-Dong had 49million people killed in the name of Marxism/Communism ... score one for the Left

Joseph Stalin had 13million people killed in the name of Socialism... score another one for the Left.

Adolf Hitler had 12 million people killed in the name of Socialism... hrmm... I'm seeing a pattern here.

Hideki Tojo had 5 million people killed in the name of Imperialism.. well.. there is one for the Right.....

Pol Pot had 1.7 million people killed in the name of Maoism (Marxism).... seems the left is winning

Kim Il Sung 1.6 million killed in the name of Juche Idea (Socialism)... ok... again.. another point of for the Left.

Menghistu had 1.5 million killed in the name of... I don’t know.. technically he was a communist... another for the Left.

Ismail Enver had 1.2 million killed.. not really sure what you would consider his party... they were considered "progressive" so I would assume Left.... I wont score this one.

Yakubu Gowon had 1 million people killed... I think his politics fell more toward the Right... so score one for the right....

Wow... for the "Left" being such a bleeding heart kind of movement... they sure have killed a shit load of people over the years.

You may have something here about the left....

Let's see what other simularities we can find. They were all men... so that makes men evil I guess... They were also readily available to financial resources... which I guess means that the rich are evil.... let's see what else... none of them were american... so I guess that means that foriegners are evil...

So I guess we should round up and kill all rich leftist foriegn men... and the problem is solved...

I think however you may have made another point that you didn't even mean to... That people of power will use high minded ideas to commit murder... just as it has been done with: Christianity, Patriotism, Islam, Morality, Economics, Hope, and Philosophy... I doubt that in the past many of these figures liked having their messages used for evil any more than say Jesus would have liked it.... PERHAPS

[pharoh]

Lets just end this.......chuck norris has killed more

[BrassFusion]

OMG CHUCK NORRIS IS DA BOMB LOLZ

[Paper Hearts]

The successors to the Nazi party of WW2, in Germany, are almost always considered ultra right-wing, the same as the Neo Nazis are in this country. Nazis are somewhat different than the average conservative, because they are revolutionary right-wing groups, in that they are champions of nationalism to the point of xenophobia, for religious, and/or racist conservatism. They believe in forced economic protectionism, rather than socialism, and they believe in restoring "racial borders" through imperialism. Beyond economic protectionism, a Nazi nationalizes private property belonging to members of their racial, religious or political opposites for the quite conservative motivation of renewal, which in their case takes the form of the idea of purification. -Which is in stark contrast to the socialist country of Germany that we know today, as example.

In fact, our view of the spectrum may be a bit skewed in the United States, as most nations of the world (and "free" nations, at that) are socialist. That is socialism, on global scale, would really be "middle of the road" by majority. -On a global scale, the United States has a fairly extreme conservative government, and so our conservatives are considered extreme by the global 'normal' standard. For instance, even our chief progressive party, the Democrats, are mostly capitalists in actuality, rather than socialists, although, they often evoke economic xenophilia (the opposite of xenophobia), and target the lower and middle classes.

Fascism has only ever been considered left-wing by a minority of the paleoconservative, and nationally as well as globally classified ultraconservative (and revolutionary), 'American', Libertarians. Although, most Libertarians (and the strongest among them), even define fascism as far-right on the spectrum.

So the views of this title are strange, to say the least.

[BrassFusion]

O maan, that was smart wat u said. but its probably just leftest propogander. so i wont listen

[Troy Spiral (13)]

Once you get pre vietnam era (and outside of the U.S.) the idea of right-left gets even more foggy than it is in modern times. Interesting topic for conversation though. Certianly will cause debate.

Maybe to narrow it a bit "the right as defined as:? the left as defined as:?" Keeping it 20th century makes it ... if not more simple, at least less mind boggling. If we go back further than the 20th century it will be left to the chaos sciences to do all that calculating and info digging.

Historically the left was "the commoners" and the right was the "lords". In a very loose sense the modern "left" (over simplified as socialist) and the "right" (over simplified as statist/fascist) still fit that mold. Its a joke to think the average-joe ever had much say, its always been the more well-heeled in either direction that have held the puppet strings.

Just about all of the great murdering regimes of the 20th century could arguably be painted one way or the other. You dont really get the power to do wholesale long term murder without having control of the state with a iron grip (thus statist despite any socialist preaching). The bomb throwing liberal types that we think of as the "angry young men" manage to rape and pilliage up a storm in a shorter period of time. (sort of like roids) The mass destroyers dont live to write the history books.... so we get to think of them if we want as either "in power" or "transitional". Taken as a whole you end up with a fairly muddy picture.

One interesting idea is that to get to pure socialism/comunisim its usually assumed that you have to go dictatorship for awhile or else it will never get done.. then switch over to the Utopia once everything is in place. (yeah right)

Also i think it would have to take into account per-capita of the global population. 10,000 dead in 2000 drasticly more significant in a morbid sort of way than 10,000 dead in 1900.

I dont think its nearly as simple as we might want it to be.

[Homicidalheathen]

Me too.....I don't like the 'left' or 'right' label. Lets just group them all in the 'asshole' catagory.

I personally view every one of them as fascist dictators. They espoused socialist ideas but in reality that's not what their "governments" were about. Let's score them as nut cases and the people who went along with them same...

[phee]

Me too.....I don't like the 'left' or 'right' label. Lets just group them all in the 'asshole' catagory.

Well said

[ZhukovCodeslinger]

Nazism and fascism are very different yet share many of the same Ideas... without writing a book, the most important difference is the Racial componant of National Socialism. Very few governments outside of Italy, Spain, And Portugal have had fascist governments. The main determination that seperates Fascism from Left wing dictatorships is the central issue of property ownership. in fascist and nazi systems, private ownership continues. In left wing communist/socialist systems, nobody is allowed to own anything, the state retains ownership of all property and by default everyone is supposed to share everything... with the leaders getting a bigger share of better stuff... (which happens to be quite similar to capitalism) oh well

historically, the nazis were left wing... until we became enemies and then it became apparant to the president and his party who had been in power for 10+ years (roosevelt probably would have won a 5th or 6th term had he not died...) that they needed to distance themselves from the nazis in a way that people could understand (also had to explain how the Soviets were different from the nazis...) so the nazis became right wing. the name nazi comes from the german National Socialist German Workers Party..... workers and socialist are clearly left wing terms. Most of the things the party believed in (aside from Racial supremacy) were tied to socialist ideas world wide. (in some respects they were a nation of hippies. under the nazis, germans got free vacations, spent money on environmental projects and sent all their kids off from the cities to play in the woods)

as for modern Neo Nazis... sorry to break this to you but 99% of them have no basic understanding of politics or Nazism. They are racists and dont dig any deaper than that... period. They have no idea of politics and governence beyond protecting jobs (no idea how to do it though) and creating some kind of racial purity... (if you look at my book list for sale elsewhere I have a few books on the subject).

as troy said "left" and "right" came from where people sat in british parliment depending on if they were common or lords... left wanted to take away from the lords... lords wanted to maintain private ownership. Though even in this case, the left were not poor people like us, they were non titled merchants and business owners who wanted to take power from the noble class and "equalize" things.

on to socialist leaders listed earlier. Most socialist governments that become absolutist or totalitarian regimes eventually eat their own people (figuratively) because they can not produce the results in practice that their 5 year plans (or whatever plans they choose to impliment) say they should be producing. Eventually the ideas/ goals become the most important thing and it becomes obvious to the leaders that the people are resisting the change/ progress because they are greedy. The masses that are killed are usually killed as a result of inefficiency and corruption rather than direct action (even in the case of stalin). That means that most of those governments are more guilty of criminal neglect than murder (in terms of sheer numbers, not policy).

The USA is very middle ground, not socialist and not right wing... We own property, the government does do some things to take care of us, and we have a bill of rights.

[Paper Hearts]

If you buy into the Nazis being socialists then perhaps you'd have been one if you were German in those years. Because it's widely, widely accepted, that the Nazis were (are) right-wingers. You'd have listened to Hitler's speeches and believed the lies that often have prompted other people to call him a wolf in sheep's clothing, for this same reason.

What the Nazis called themselves and what they actually were, are two different things and it's part of why they were so successful. And if you did believe Hitler's lies you'd need, at least, strong conservative tendencies, because it stands that a true progressive doesn't care for restoring things, instead they are at odds with that, whatever it is...that's just the way someone must be in order to be called progressive. We’re too influenced by our current political climate that says anyone who thinks a certain way is having conservative or progressive thought necessarily. It’s not the case. At any rate, what makes someone conservative or progressive truly, is not so much an economic structure they want or say they want, but rather what’s really motivating them, as in our Democrats who are liberal capitalists (and I’ve met oceans of them). Well are they really right-wingers then, if the international standard is socialism and socialism is left, they being capitalists? -Although I'm abusing the term somewhat, socialism driven by xenophobia is not socialism, it's called protectionism...and socialism, although the Nazis may have abused the term as well,doesn't exist where there is not xenophilia. Those things are not only different, but opposites. The Nazis were also driven by an idea of restoration and that’s why 99.9% of people put them down as conservatives.

It’s more likely that the modern American conservative sees a need to try to distance themselves from the Nazis by calling the Nazis leftists. Although I’m sure Hitler would have appreciated the notion. -Of course it was important for the president to distance himself from the Nazis, because he could be a pretty decent socialist and so recognized the Nazis for what they truly were and saw the need to expose them. Well, there was a genuine need when the Nazis were near effortlessly taking the globe by lies and force and it's not because the president had something to hide. But Socilaism is something that Germany had, was probably going to have and by coincidense, still has. So in a sense it's colorless when you're talking about the Nazis to bring up socialism except to say that what made Nazis so dangerous and effective is that they were able to take on that guise and target the ignorance of the lower and middle classes with fear through it. It's not what someone pays lip-service to that makes them conservative or progressive but the nature of where the philosophy that drives them comes from. And most people are satisfied with that...although if some people here would like to take the Nazis for their word, I'm more than happy to allow it...because to me, taking the Nazis for thier word speaks for itself.

And of course a Nazi isn’t a Fascist, it’s just that it should be said (since it’s come up) that Fascism is another classification that the vast majority say belongs to the political right, for similar reasons.

I'm not sure why this topic was started however, unless we're trying to paint Socialism as evil-

(Goodbye to 9/10 of our allies) (and never mind that the world's largest corporation, also an American private buisness, MacDonald's, wouldn't have existed with out socialist work programs that built the roads in California, just a part of many such socialists programs that pulled Capitalism out of it's Depression) (Not to mention that everytime one of our big private companies start going under they go to the government for a bail-out, from our taxes, and without such opportunities we'd still be a poor country)

(just a few examples)

And unless you're trying to paint all progressives in this country (especially the Democrats) as Socialists-

(Forgetting that they usually own houses and buisnesses, vote for free-trade and like a free market economy)

And unless there were elections coming shorlty here-

(oh yes, that's right, there are some coming)

And unless some people would like war to be our focus-

***

Capitalism has never been successfull without Socialism present to clean up after it's messes, but in fairness, most successfull countries that say they're Socialist allow for some level of Capitalism, this could even mean home ownership, albeit home ownership is worthless if a government provides one for you... But anyway, that's why this is so ridiculous, because the Cold War is over and so why go on pretending? But bravo, American Conservatives, for stopping at nothing, with the by now humorous consistancy we have come to know you for, in order to try to seem reasonable.

Hitler was a Hippy and Jesus was a Republican.

[Steven]

Brad Pitt has killed more.