Tranquilizers

[Paper Hearts]

Time to renew your PCP connections.

Years ago, in a thrift store, while checking the sale items, I found a child-size ball cap with the brand Ritalin celebrated proudly across the front of it's crown. I remember thinking that I should buy this hat, that I should take it home, and that in some way I should file it away safely for future reference. And I've been thinking about that hat today.

Well, it's almost something humorous to me...and then I just want cry.

I'm somewhat proud to be able to say that I have, in my adult life, yet to have a psychoactive prescription drug as directed. I've crushed pills and taken them in my nose and I've crushed them and injected them into my skin. I've chased glasses of absinth with shots of liquid codeine. In the past, I was not above recreation in that sense. And in another sense, I'm still not. I do so love alcohol.

It's not strange to me that the drugs most often used in suicides are the same ones prescribed to treat depressions. And I've lived with people on lithium, and...I'm not able to say I've witnessed an improvement in mental health as such, but rather a change from melancholic to space-cadet from that drug and others like it. I'm more of the opinion that there are things in the world which justify depression and that it's better to channel your feelings about those things into ways that are at least a bit satisfying...

I recall something Edvard Munch once said, that he was thankful for his depression because without it, what would he have painted all those years?

I don't like the attitude that you should just take a pill and shut up and join the army of happy people marching haughtily through whatever in fuck it is. Well, it's not always the best thing for us, is it?

I've come by an article on recent and successful ketamine research, where ketamine was used to "cure" people whom have depression...and a lot of memories from parties in 1999 came back to me after I'd read it. As well, the image of the Ritalin hat.

Here you are, here's your psychological liberation lined up neatly and in rows. Litterally. Now grab yourself a straw.

[Homicidalheathen]

I am surprised they give these kids speed just to go to school. I too was lazy minded, I am glad my parents didn't drug me.

Last week I admit.....I did a bad thing.

I was curious and took some of my friends kids left over (she won't make her take it All the time, thank god) Adorol.

Jezus H christ this shit is some pretty strong speed. I am surprised this tiny 14 yr old girl is prescribed it just to get through a day of school.........as I too have ADD

I prob won't ever take it again it was so strong. My freind tried it too and was equally surprised and now she might not make her kid take it anymore. We were up all night.

[Paper Hearts]

^If I'd only ever considered drugs in two dimensions, I have to admit, it sounds entirely plausable. Speaking as someone who's used drugs in a three dimensional sense, I can't come up with a better example of drug abuse, than that.

[Steven]

everyone is depressed.

everyone has attention deficit.

everyone struggles to cope.

everyone is an escapist.

we've just made a social art form out of it nowadays.

the reason I dont do drugs anymore is that I'd rather just change my mind about my place in things, than temporarily alter it and then wait for the inevitable outcome of reality to reintroduce itself and thus make a liar out of me.

[Paper Hearts]

Yes, it's more fatalist to tell someone that the world really is wonderfull and that all they have to do is take Paxil and then they can join the crowd. And If I were to replace the word Paxil with the word ketamine in that last statement, then it would seem twice as ridiculous an idea.

[Fierce Critter]

I am not depressed in the "sad all the time" form that is usually pictured when people say they are depressed.

I am a person who doesn't like the way pills are pushed at people for anything and everything these days. I had a doctor like that once, and she was a crock. Prescribing me Prozac for a possible suspected case of MONO. I threw it in the trash and found a new doctor.

But I am also a person who will take a medication if it really will improve my daily life. Such as the synthroid that helps my metabolism and has stopped me from being totally freezing all the time, allowed my hair to grow again, and enables me to actually lose & maintain weight when I'm able to eat & exercise right. Or the Singulair & Claritin which allow me to have cats as pets for the first time in my life, and keeps me from chronic allergy attacks which can best be described as "face explosions".

But when I realized my depression was something I could not just "fix" on my own, I knew medication was a possibility. And that scared me.

I am honestly afraid of medications with names like Zoloft, Prozac, etc. I've heard of the side effects. I don't like knowing that I've reached a stage where something like that could actually be... shudders... necessary for "normal" living.

But this was our apartment 4 years ago, before depression:

And this is our apartment now, in the throes of severe depression:

This is the first time I have "opened my house" for anyone like this. Please don't make the mistake of thinking I could, possibly, "like" things this way. Or that I have become, simply, "lazy". I hate it, and I am not lazy by nature.

I cannot live like this. I cannot let my husband live like this. It rules every moment of my life now.

I need to get better. And if there is a chemical disruption happening in my brain that can be repaired through a proper medication, I will take it. Enthusiastically.

I cannot create "art" while I am like this. I do not envy those who can.

I can barely get myself to brush my teeth every day. And I DO envy those who can.

And I have heard that those who create wonderful art through their depression would give anything to be artless, yet "normal".

I want to be "normal" again.

I am an incredibly strong person. I can counsel others. I can stand observant outside a situation and "figure it out".

I cannot figure this one out. And it is killing me.

As Jon so insightfully put it - it's like God is playing a cruel joke on me. "O.k., Miss Smartypants-fixes-everyone-around-her. Here's depression. Fix that."

I can't. But with the help of my therapist who dropped her fee from $100 a visit to $25, and my M.D. who is aware of my aversion to things of the "prozac" ilk and is trying less... invasive... meds one by one, and MY OWN work at research, self-observance & involvement in trying to fix this thing - I believe I will, one day, have my life back.

If one can function and thrive without medications, kudos. I'm truly and sincerely glad about that.

And if one overuses medications and doesn't do personal work to improve their situation beyond popping a pill every day, then I feel sorry for that person and wish them the best.

I am, apparently, neither of those. I need help. I want to work again. I want to have fun again. I want the all-encompassing guilt to be GONE.

[Onyx]

What a complicated subject.

It hits pretty close to home too. My daughters both have ADD, one with the hyperactivity component, one without. Ritalin doesn't work for either, but if it did I would not hesitate to get it for them. There are lots of kids who take it recreationally who don't need it. I took a lot of abuse when I decided to put my oldest on it. I was actually relieved when it didn't work for her because I was sick of people who knew nothing about her or me attacking us for it.

Funny how it's okay to take meds if you have an infection or if you have diabetes, but if you need any medication pertaining to the mind, whether you are depressed, have a learning disability - it's not okay.

but kids, remember, it's fine to destroy your liver with alcohol or kill your motivation with too much pot. I wonder how many drug and alcohol addicts and abusers are actually in need of help for depression.

[Steven]

Of course there are exceptions to the general populace Camille, and I dont see you as an easy-outer.

I thought it was pretty gutsy (which is why your going to one day feel the breakthru you desire) for you to open your home and struggles to us. I respect transparancy almost above all else, and beleive in its potency to heal and build intimacy.

OK, so now you've opened your doors. You let us see your current state of being. Will you let us help? I cant make you feel better, but I can sure as shootin clean me some house. Just that alone, could very well be a solid step forward - changing your immediate environment. If your cool with it - PM me, and I'll come over and throw down. I aint skeered. And everybody at some time or another....needs to reach out and say help me.

[Paper Hearts]

I don't think there are any artists who would give up art for happiness. If "depression" is what truly drives an artist to create, because being "happy" would make it impossible for them to be an artist. If someone isn't allowed to be who they are, then they're even more miserable. More than anything, good art requires having a different perspective and when antidepressants make you into a charicature of happiness, eventually you'll know what alienation really is. And self-loathing.

Although, art is not the only avenue people can take.

I suppose there are some people that drugs could "help", but I'd never consider taking drugs for that purpose, myself. And it's because I've had ketamine, I've had lithium...I've had every drug on the planet, probably...and you never really achieve, through drugs, what you're trying to.

I was talking to a friend of mine who is a Ph.D. in medical research and well, I've known him for years and I go out and have a boozer with him now and then, so he's a close friend as well as a professional opinion.

I remember relating to him a story about I guy I used to know, who had the best connection on Earth. His name is Brit and when I knew him, he used to carry a black doctor's bag full of pills. Brit's man was the best there ever was, as I’ve just stated--he could get DMSO, pure morphine tablets, anything, in this man's living room he had two nitrous tanks that he rented out to clubs. And Brit really knew drugs, and when he didn't, he'd call poison control to figure what drug cocktails would work best for us. So they were quite a pair to know, these two.

I was relating Brit's various drug cocktails to this doctor friend of mine. I also mentioned MDMA, cocaine and ketamine followed eventually by morphine via DMSO, was a pretty common night out for the people I used to hang out with...back in those times...and honestly, a binge would last for a week or two. And this doctor friend of mine, well he's not exactly naive about drugs, he's tried lots of them (aside from being a doctor in medical research), but he couldn't understand however, why anyone would mix depressants with stimulants, for instance.

Well, the feeling you get from stimulants feels nothing like natural stimulation, and the feeling you get from depressants is nothing like natural composure...and when you mix them you feel something yet different. Not to mention that when you're on that much shit, you're constantly coming down from something and have to fix yourself again, and when you have so many options, you'll inevitably get creative.

I just think that the happiness you get from antidepressants doesn't feel like real happiness, to anyone. It’s always something different that you feel and not what you're looking for.

In some cases, drugs may be helpfull...but only in that two dimensional sense that my doctor friend understands. -No energy? Take a stimulant, clean the house. And it works. Eventually though, whatever you're taking feels as horrible as any other drug and you'll feel worse than you ever did depressed, because of that. It’s just yucky.

(And when I use the word 'you', I'm not speaking directly about you, I mean everyone.) (Bad habit.)

Really, society requires more than one happy ass perspective to be worthwhile. And in reality, it's the happy asses that make the most meaningless differances. -If you've only a two dimensional problem, then drugs might work for you...but If people have three dimensional depression, then drugs are useless, possibly harmfull.

[HipsterDufus]

Well, the feeling you get from stimulants feels nothing like natural stimulation, and the feeling you get from depressants is nothing like natural composure...and when you mix them you feel something yet different. Not to mention that when you're on that much shit, you're constantly coming down from something and have to fix yourself again, and when you have so many options, you'll inevitably get creative.

I just think that the happiness you get from antidepressants doesn't feel like real happiness, to anyone. It’s always something different that you feel and not what you're looking for.

In some cases, drugs may be helpfull...but only in that two dimensional sense that my doctor friend understands. -No energy? Take a stimulant, clean the house. And it works. Eventually though, whatever you're taking feels as horrible as any other drug and you'll feel worse than you ever did depressed, because of that. It’s just yucky.

From my limited experience with drugs and those I've known on anti-depressants, I have found this to be true as well. A drug just creates an overlay, a mask. It doesn't take care of whatever is causing depression in the first place, it just buffers the effects of the depression. Of course, this is all many people need in order to "get back in the swing of things." But once functionality has been restored, the things that are causing the depression must be dealt with. Again, this is just my limited experience. I don't want to make myself sound disapproving of those that choose to take any drug (especially in an effort to improve themselves).

[Paper Hearts]

From my limited experience with drugs and those I've known on anti-depressants, I have found this to be true as well. A drug just creates an overlay, a mask. It doesn't take care of whatever is causing depression in the first place, it just buffers the effects of the depression. Of course, this is all many people need in order to "get back in the swing of things." But once functionality has been restored, the things that are causing the depression must be dealt with. Again, this is just my limited experience. I don't want to make myself sound disapproving of those that choose to take any drug (especially in an effort to improve themselves).

Yes, I was only offering my opinion as well. I want to add, in that same spirit, that if someone actually cares about themselves enough to get "help" then chances are it's not a really dire depression that they're suffering from...if it's depression at all.

[Fierce Critter]

I don't think there are any artists who would give up art for happiness.

I'm not speaking from personal guess. I'm speaking from having read books and seen really great documentaries on both artists and depression. MANY of them have said that directly. They would trade their artistic talent for a non-depressive condition

And there's no way of telling if said artists would still be just as talented if they were NOT depressed. It very well may be that they would still be as prolific, but perhaps create a different type of art.

And I don't mean if they are drugged into non-depression. I mean if they weren't afflicted in the first place. There's no way of knowing that. So you can't make a generalized statement saying that all the depressed artists out there wouldn't be artists if it weren't for the depression.

As for whether or not depressed people are or aren't "truly" depressed, I really shouldn't even go there. It'll just piss me off to try to "defend" my condition as being an actual, physiological problem involving body chemicals, receptors, etc.

I care enough to get help. To ask for help. To try to help myself. That doesn't make me non-depressed. Polar opposite. I'm the type of person who doesn't easily ask for or accept help - period. For me to have ended up in a condition so grave as to have to resort to outside influence means a lot to those who REALLY know me. That's when people opened their eyes and said, "This is serious. This is real. This is unusual."

Being depressed is SO not "allowing me to be who I am." On the contrary. I was an artist before this hit. Maybe not paint or pencil. But I did beautiful crafts. I did nearly microscopic detailing on models. I did graphics. I sewed. I did some painting on ceramics, leather, etc. I did beadwork. I played guitar, wrote songs, performed live.

All that stopped dead when the depression hit. I have never been "this person". I don't want to be this non-me. The person I was before was organized, full of life, outgoing, fun, driven, creative. This person is flat-line. No ups, no downs. No interest. No motivation. Nothing. This is so completely not the real ME.

It's so not a matter of my "not having energy, I need a stimulent to be able to clean the house". Hell, if it were just that, I'd look into drinking coffee or Mountain fucking Dew. Neither of which I do on a regular basis. That'd be grand if that was all I needed. But that's complete and total bullshit.

I'm not unhappy. Again, I don't have problems with mood swings up or down. I'm not manic. I've done some research sofar, and it looks like my serotonin levels are not at issue. Norepinephrine & dopamine, more than likely. So it's time to go back to the doctor, get off the 3rd medication that hasn't done squat for me (consequently all serotonin/norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors), and be more involved in finding something that does target what probably is not firing correctly.

Another thing to possibly consider. I have never done recreational drugs for fun, relaxation, mind-broadening, nothing like that. I can count the number of times I have smoked a joint on less than one hand, and that's over a span of years. I've had a total of maybe 3 hits of hash, almost tried acid but a friend ensured I didn't, and that my friends is the full, honest story of my history of recreational drug use. I can take or leave alcohol, and lately have found myself prefering to leave it. I respect drugs/medication/all types of "artificial mood/emotion/behavior enhancers". I always have. I choose what I do and don't use. I don't just let people throw stuff at me and submissively say, "Alright, whatever you say" and take it.

I am curious at that difference between people like me, who have never been into recreational drugs and who can see medications as good, and people who have abused drugs or relied on them and then make sweeping generalizations that all drugs - including medications - are bad.

[Fierce Critter]

OK, so now you've opened your doors. You let us see your current state of being. Will you let us help? I cant make you feel better, but I can sure as shootin clean me some house. Just that alone, could very well be a solid step forward - changing your immediate environment. If your cool with it - PM me, and I'll come over and throw down. I aint skeered. And everybody at some time or another....needs to reach out and say help me.

Thank you, Steven. The offer is both appreciated, and tempting.

But don't forget - I have a husband. He can clean, too.

He himself has only recently started to understand my condition. Even though he's been on anti-anxiety meds for 4 years now, it has been hard for him to put himself in my place and see through my eyes.

Actually, being so "normalized" on the Effexxor has probably made it harder for him to put himself in my place. Only by remembering how he used to be before the medications helped him can he sort of grasp how bad my situation really is. That's when he realizes how much help I need.

We're getting there. I didn't show a picture of the upstairs bedroom, which I cleaned myself single-handedly. It was extraordinarily difficult to do, and maintaining it is an effort in of itself. But point is, we CAN get this licked. And while outside help is tempting, I think it's best for us as a married couple that we don't allow that.

We have considered hiring paid cleaners to come in. Turns out it's not as expensive as we would have thought. And since I took care of the bedroom already, the price would probably be lower than that which we were quoted. But that might not be necessary.

This is a learning and growing experience for Jon, too. He has to live here, and if the situation is unacceptable to him, then he has to be "the man" and do something about it. I'll stop short of sharing all our personal details, but understand this is a learning and growing experience for both of us.

Again, thank you. Though I won't accept your offer of help, it still means the world to me that you offered. I am greatful.

[Onyx]

I am curious at that difference between people like me, who have never been into recreational drugs and who can see medications as good, and people who have abused drugs or relied on them and then make sweeping generalizations that all drugs - including medications - are bad.

Interesting.

I have never been into recreational drug use or alcohol either. I notice (also considring those in my own life who barked at me for trying Ritalin with my oldest) a lot who have and still do use drugs recreationally seem very against using them to help oneself with depression or concentration problems.

[Paper Hearts]

I'm not speaking from personal guess. I'm speaking from having read books and seen really great documentaries on both artists and depression. MANY of them have said that directly. They would trade their artistic talent for a non-depressive condition

And there's no way of telling if said artists would still be just as talented if they were NOT depressed. It very well may be that they would still be as prolific, but perhaps create a different type of art.

And I don't mean if they are drugged into non-depression. I mean if they weren't afflicted in the first place. There's no way of knowing that. So you can't make a generalized statement saying that all the depressed artists out there wouldn't be artists if it weren't for the depression.

As for whether or not depressed people are or aren't "truly" depressed, I really shouldn't even go there. It'll just piss me off to try to "defend" my condition as being an actual, physiological problem involving body chemicals, receptors, etc.

I care enough to get help. To ask for help. To try to help myself. That doesn't make me non-depressed. Polar opposite. I'm the type of person who doesn't easily ask for or accept help - period. For me to have ended up in a condition so grave as to have to resort to outside influence means a lot to those who REALLY know me. That's when people opened their eyes and said, "This is serious. This is real. This is unusual."

Being depressed is SO not "allowing me to be who I am." On the contrary. I was an artist before this hit. Maybe not paint or pencil. But I did beautiful crafts. I did nearly microscopic detailing on models. I did graphics. I sewed. I did some painting on ceramics, leather, etc. I did beadwork. I played guitar, wrote songs, performed live.

All that stopped dead when the depression hit. I have never been "this person". I don't want to be this non-me. The person I was before was organized, full of life, outgoing, fun, driven, creative. This person is flat-line. No ups, no downs. No interest. No motivation. Nothing. This is so completely not the real ME.

It's so not a matter of my "not having energy, I need a stimulent to be able to clean the house". Hell, if it were just that, I'd look into drinking coffee or Mountain fucking Dew. Neither of which I do on a regular basis. That'd be grand if that was all I needed. But that's complete and total bullshit.

I'm not unhappy. Again, I don't have problems with mood swings up or down. I'm not manic. I've done some research sofar, and it looks like my serotonin levels are not at issue. Norepinephrine & dopamine, more than likely. So it's time to go back to the doctor, get off the 3rd medication that hasn't done squat for me (consequently all serotonin/norepinephrine reuptake inhibitors), and be more involved in finding something that does target what probably is not firing correctly.

Another thing to possibly consider. I have never done recreational drugs for fun, relaxation, mind-broadening, nothing like that. I can count the number of times I have smoked a joint on less than one hand, and that's over a span of years. I've had a total of maybe 3 hits of hash, almost tried acid but a friend ensured I didn't, and that my friends is the full, honest story of my history of recreational drug use. I can take or leave alcohol, and lately have found myself prefering to leave it. I respect drugs/medication/all types of "artificial mood/emotion/behavior enhancers". I always have. I choose what I do and don't use. I don't just let people throw stuff at me and submissively say, "Alright, whatever you say" and take it.

I am curious at that difference between people like me, who have never been into recreational drugs and who can see medications as good, and people who have abused drugs or relied on them and then make sweeping generalizations that all drugs - including medications - are bad.

I just disagree with whatever you've read about artists, I'm also speaking from a first-person account when I say that I hate it when I'm not able to make art that feels right to me more so, and that hatred drives me back into a state where I'm feeling 'right' enough to do the things that I apparently have no choice in the matter to do. it's just really the only thing I truly like. I go through phases (like I've described), which last for months at a time where I feel a “natural” and I'm creating things that I like and then eventually something will pull me out of it...and I'll be really outgoing and whimsical...and then eventually I notice that I just feel 'wrong' like that...and I hate it. I don't care, in a sense, I just need to make art and feel worthwhile again...even in the possibility that I have really bad taste. And, I know, from first-person perspective, that drugs aren't going to change anything for me and they're not going to pull me out of anything when I've run out of ideas, even in the event that I wanted that, they just make things more difficult and it really just seems like drug abuse...and I don't want attention badly enough to put myself through that. This ketamine research I'd referenced actually claims to have "cured" people in two hours of forty years depression and if not in two hours, then absolutely within a week! If that's true, then I really would have no view on this by now, would I? And all that from a drug people take for recreation...recreation, I might add, is far less like abuse than medical use in my scenario. What is really the 'sickness' for me isn't that blanket insult “depression”, it's that other thing I go through. And I've learned to love that, I've learned to deal with myself...and I just feel like antidepressants destroy the possibility of learning to deal with yourself, completely, while you're on them. And it doesn't mean I'm a bastard, it just means that I'm sometimes very distant and melancholy, which, to me, is far less annoying than being some wonderful zombie of glad tidings with a wonderful kitchen...and it's not any more ridiculous. If I were a grist mill worker who's person worked the same way, it'd be no different, I suppose...but rarely does factory work (nor office work) (nor trade work) (I would estimate) require a different perspective than a drug induced happiness...so I would say that art is a good case in point. So, you're not the only person who's ever felt like shit and when I say that 'drugs may help some people' or 'might not be best for all of us' those are decent enough disclaimers which also could include both of us, respectively. I cannot fathom, although, given what's available currently, that antidepressants would really heal someone or offer a good alternative way of life in longer terms. And while I think that what you feel may be just as valid and almost deffinately applies better to you, I do not hold it against you that you have not tried many experiments with drugs. And I hope some one can help you if you need it.

[Fierce Critter]

I just disagree with whatever you've read about artists,

I wish I could remember the names of the documentaries I've seen, and the artists they spoke with. But this isn't just stuff non-artists have spewed about artists.

It's the artists themselves being interviewed. And many of them when asked, "would you trade your artistic talent for not being depressed" answered, in many different ways, absolutely yes. They'd much prefer being able to enjoy life in normal ways than to created art that comes from a tortuous condition.

Should I catch these again, I'll try to note the names of the docs and the artists interviewed.

Also, I refuse to let anything make me a zombie. Jon has been on Effexxor for 4 years, and he is NOTHING that can even come CLOSE to being called a zombie. He has thrived.

This is why I have been very involved in what meds I will and will not try. I do hope to find one that helps me in my particular problem areas, but doesn't flatline me any worse than I am already. I'm already pretty close. I'm a very short step away from being bedridden 24-7.

No. I hope to get the kind of results Jon has had. I am, honestly, very envious of him. He and his doctor "got it right" with the very first thing they tried. I'm on my 3rd going on my 4th, and thusfar - nothing.

If anything swings me at all in the wrong direction, I will not take it. Period.

But maybe I am different than many. I do hear about people who either through poor doctors or poor judgment themselves, or from just not knowing any better, medicating themselves into a stupor. Personally, I don't understand what the hurdle/barrier is that keeps them from trying something different until they 'get it right' which is what I'm insisting on. If this is what you're particularly averse to, well, of course.

But it's not that way for all of us.

And I'm curious as to what you consider "real depression". Do you think it's entirely mental/emotional/physiological/a combination thereof/none of the above? Do you think there is one and only one way to treat it, or are you open that maybe different people respond to different things?

And I somewhat am using the collective "you". There have been others who have approached me similar - with the same skepticism that depression is at all legitimate. Often these are the ones who claim to have been depressed at some time, and "cured" themselves. I have to say those are the people I personally feel never were clinically depressed.

As for myself, the more I learn and the more experience, the more I believe that clinical depression is, indeed, a misfiring of sorts of brain chemistry/physiology. What brings it on? I'm not clear on that yet. Part of me is skeptical that if it is physical/chemical, what other than a physical/chemical "activator" could "bring it on". I wouldn't tend to believe something like that would happen with simple "bad life events". That would lead me to believe it truly is strictly a mental/emotional condition.

I'm still open to that as a possibility, which is why I'm also finally adding therapy to the search for the "right med." This came on me at a particularly horrible period in my life. Did that throw me into a state of "shut down?" Some have thought so. But if those particular events themselves got "fixed", why then am I not snapping out of it? What will it take?

I am not an expert on this. I'm trying to be, because I don't want to put myself totally in the hands of others - neither a doctor nor a therapist. I know what they think, they think it's physiological.

That is what I am more and more believing, too. So if medication will get my brain to function normally, just as synthroid gets my underactive thyroid working or Singulair & Claritin get my overactive histamines to slow the fuck down, then I will use them.

I'm not sure at this point if I have strayed from the original topic. I apologize if in bringing in my personal experiences with this, that I've created a slight off-ramp.

[torn asunder]

i can't add anything to this thread without being accused of being insensitive, so i won't...

[Steven]

He himself has only recently started to understand my condition. Even though he's been on anti-anxiety meds for 4 years now, it has been hard for him to put himself in my place and see through my eyes.

Actually, being so "normalized" on the Effexxor has probably made it harder for him to put himself in my place. Only by remembering how he used to be before the medications helped him can he sort of grasp how bad my situation really is. That's when he realizes how much help I need.

ahhhhh and now your describing the most normal of all normalcies.......marriage.

you could completely erase the med references and leave the rest, and you'd have the same basic relational man-woman dynamics that we all msut learn if were going to be successful.

there have been thigns in my relationship with Laura that to this day I do not technically "understand" (we went thru a couple of years of severe anxiety attacks on her point where she was convinced she was going to die and became a recluse) .... yet I have had to accept them, and re-evaluate my definition of "acceptance" so that it would move beyond a passive thing. I used to think that I needed to understand soemthign before I could involve myelf in it or participate in problem solving, but I was wrong. What I needed to do, is what Jon sounds like he is learnign to do: listen to my partner....

[Fierce Critter]

ahhhhh and now your describing the most normal of all normalcies.......marriage.

you could completely erase the med references and leave the rest, and you'd have the same basic relational man-woman dynamics that we all msut learn if were going to be successful.

there have been thigns in my relationship with Laura that to this day I do not technically "understand" (we went thru a couple of years of severe anxiety attacks on her point where she was convinced she was going to die and became a recluse) .... yet I have had to accept them, and re-evaluate my definition of "acceptance" so that it would move beyond a passive thing. I used to think that I needed to understand soemthign before I could involve myelf in it or participate in problem solving, but I was wrong. What I needed to do, is what Jon sounds like he is learnign to do: listen to my partner....

Exactly.

I've seen depression in the family, and anxiety attacks. So I had already some experience with that sort of thing when I got together with Jon.

Though my sister's "mad-ons" as we called them were difficult to deal with, I understood she wasn't really in control of them, so I gave her space. Likewise, when Jon would rage at me or call me "bitch" when I'd be trying to simply work something out with him, I knew this wasn't as in his control as it should be. I was still hurt by it, and I still had problems not wanting to lash back at him. But instead of doing so, I just sat back and waited for him to cool down to the point where we could talk reasonably - which always happened.

On Effexxor, he now can keep his own rages under control so we can talk reasonably together, and he can clearly see that a discussion is just that - a discussion. Not an exchange of attacks & rebuttals. Now, sometimes he's more in control when we have a disagreement than I am.

Since my form of depression is a more passive one - I don't have lows and I don't have highs - it's not as easy to see it as a legitimate "happening" going on. When Jon and I had a particularly bad falling out some months back, I had to sit back and realize that though I was able to see Jon's inappropriate responses for what they were and deal with it, I couldn't expect Jon to be the same person with me. I have a knack for seeing these conditions and reacting with wisdom & understanding. Jon needed a lot more talking with me - so he could get inside my head - before he was able to even come close to finally "getting it".

Likewise, I can't expect everybody to "get it". Especially if you've never dealt with it before. Depression comes in many forms. Jon had one kind, my mother has another, my sister has another. And I have another as well. Just 'cause I get my mother's - which is nearly identical to mine and I now realize has been going on for decades - doesn't mean I can totally understand my sister's. But I can accept it and learn how to deal with it. Just 'cause I don't 100% understand it doesn't make it any less legitimate.

I still don't know for sure what the cause is. Why I was fine for about 34 years and then BAM! I went full-tilt bad very quickly. Why my husband shows no signs of it today with relatively mild meds. Why my sister now functions fine without any more meds or therapy after a decade or so on very strong ones.

I'm seeking answers myself. Which is why I enjoy topics like this.

[Steven]

But maybe I am different than many. I do hear about people who either through poor doctors or poor judgment themselves, or from just not knowing any better, medicating themselves into a stupor. Personally, I don't understand what the hurdle/barrier is that keeps them from trying something different until they 'get it right' which is what I'm insisting on. If this is what you're particularly averse to, well, of course.

But it's not that way for all of us.

And I'm curious as to what you consider "real depression". Do you think it's entirely mental/emotional/physiological/a combination thereof/none of the above? Do you think there is one and only one way to treat it, or are you open that maybe different people respond to different things?

And I somewhat am using the collective "you". There have been others who have approached me similar - with the same skepticism that depression is at all legitimate. Often these are the ones who claim to have been depressed at some time, and "cured" themselves. I have to say those are the people I personally feel never were clinically depressed.

As for myself, the more I learn and the more experience, the more I believe that clinical depression is, indeed, a misfiring of sorts of brain chemistry/physiology. What brings it on? I'm not clear on that yet. Part of me is skeptical that if it is physical/chemical, what other than a physical/chemical "activator" could "bring it on". I wouldn't tend to believe something like that would happen with simple "bad life events". That would lead me to believe it truly is strictly a mental/emotional condition.

I'm still open to that as a possibility, which is why I'm also finally adding therapy to the search for the "right med." This came on me at a particularly horrible period in my life. Did that throw me into a state of "shut down?" Some have thought so. But if those particular events themselves got "fixed", why then am I not snapping out of it? What will it take?

I am not an expert on this. I'm trying to be, because I don't want to put myself totally in the hands of others - neither a doctor nor a therapist. I know what they think, they think it's physiological.

That is what I am more and more believing, too. So if medication will get my brain to function normally, just as synthroid gets my underactive thyroid working or Singulair & Claritin get my overactive histamines to slow the fuck down, then I will use them.

I'm not sure at this point if I have strayed from the original topic. I apologize if in bringing in my personal experiences with this, that I've created a slight off-ramp.

I told you about Laura's sitch. Panic Anxiety Disorder / Depression was her official diagnosis from the headshrinker.

It came suddenly and literally out of the blue and derailed us for a couple of years. She was medicated for it like you are - but had terrible side effects from the meds and jumped from med to med in one grand experiment after another, it was a rough ride. Nothing got better, instead it got worse. She couldent even leave the house. And I was exhausted from trying to "get it".

In the end we treated it three ways at once. Spiritually / Nutrionally / Relationally. Its the only thing that worked. And this too, took some time.

Why does it happen? God man, in this world we have nowadays who knows?

I (we) think that it was a Physiological response to her immediate environement and years of built up bilogical tick tocking. There, that's Steven's diagnosis. In english: the world is fucked up, over stimulated and stressful, and she had too much estrogen in her system that had her liver oversaturated and her body in general was losing its ability to balance the very delicate chemical processes that it used to balance so easily in younger years, and one day it simply no longer could, so her brain flipped out. Once we introduced a sustained (key: sustained) duration of physiological closet cleaning and spiritual/emotional balance, things started to kick back in again. And again we beelive that was/is her brain's biological reaction to the environment that we began to intentionally create and nurture and protect. Which meant I had to get my head out of my ass and be a bit proactive. By the way Laura and I still dont comepletely "get it"....what happened and why.....we jsut finnally as a team said "ok here we are, here's where we want to be, here's whats definately NOT working, here's what's being suggested by outside sources, here's a path we can choose that we can both get behind, here's the risk, here's the awful current reality, and here we go".

I dont mean to sound so trite. Because the expereince was anything but. It almost cost us "us", and I do take that very seriously.

Side Note: I think many of us former dope fiends simply see the same dynamic we knew/know so well. And dont forget - we may have started off recreationally, but we also used to balance ourselves, whether we understood that or not. You pump enough shit thru your body (ie Brain) and eventually it's chemical nature begins to change and certain proceses begin to struggle. So we see the same thing - and a warning light goes off. And we recognize the phenominal amounts of time and effort that is lost. And perhaps that scares us a wee bit.

Side Note #2: Doctors really don't know, they dont. They simply take educated guesses with lives. I'd rather hand my life over to God (uh oh THREAD JACKER) than to a Doctor who does not even know me or get me beyond a clinical stance.

[Steven]

a couple of PS's babe.....

PS 1: Laura was your age when the world suddenly changed. Apparently that was the biologically pre-determined age when the shit was to hit the fan (she has anxiety / depression in her family too).

PS 2: Try to remember too (and I know you do) that men by and large are "logical" thinkers and processors by nature. Hence his approach to your situation. Laura's breakdown made me a better man in the end. But I admit the ride sucked for awhile.

You gotcha a good man there Camille.

[Paper Hearts]

What's operative, in this interview question, posed with these certain artists that seem to thrive from "depression", is the part of the question which asks 'would they give up their abilities', first of all, and secondly, 'if it were possible'. -It's not possible for an artist, to give up what makes them feel worth something and truly feel happiness, there's really not that option unless you're not an artist who works that way, in the first place. Asking some one such a question is kind of like asking some one if they would like it were they born something else, entirely...and I don't know how anyone can say whether they would choose that, because it's hard to know what it's like. 'Would you rather be happy and still be able to create things that you like, just as well?', is easier to answer, I suppose...but I challange you to find an example where it's ever occured, for someone who only works in the opposite way.

"Depression" can mean a lot of different things for a lot of people but it's wrong to assume that it always constitutes brain defects or psychological problems; it's no more a defect or psychological problem than chronic happiness would be, necessarily, nor manic apathy. And Manic Anything Else is no more stupid than Manic Depression, and at any rate, no one really can speak from the advantage of a perfect mind to say so, if it were the case; we're all as different in our minds as we are on the palms of our hands, and what is ideal for one person, while never achieved in a lifetime through any amount of drugs or therapy by whatever method, is not always ideal for anyone else.

If one visits a doctor, although, they're bound to attempt to give whatever treatment they deem will correct you based on what you've told them you've felt and what they can observe. Unfortunately, when you're talking about a mental condition, no drug really feels as 'right' as what you would have in an ideal mind. It's like this doctor friend of mine asking whether a depresssant and a stimulant wouldn't just cancel out each other's effects and make one feel sober again...well of course they wouldn't, because niether produces a normal feeling in the first place, not to any one. It looks great on paper, but no stimulant or depressant feels right in effect to begin with, no matter what condition you start them from. There's not much point, in treating the side effects of a particular condition with things like that...you may get more regular sleep or something, if you get sleeping pills prescribed, for example, but you cannot take things like that every day without feeling worse than you would have missing a couple of night's sleep. It's better to learn to deal. As far as a doctor just playing hit or miss with brain chemicals until they've eventually created a more acceptable disposition in some one, I suppose we all have different thresholds...and personally, I wouldn't want to rely on a pill to feel what the books say is reasonable for everyone.

I haven't slept four hours since this last Friday, total. And when I do sleep, I rarely reach REM at all, let alone long enough for what's thought of as healthy. And it's been life-long. Is it psychological; is it brain chemistry? Is it a combination of both? Well, I couldn't care less. And, there's a few people on the board that will tell you that my apartment is always clean, even being a 29 year old male, full time, single parent, who also works full time. I've just, perhaps, something all together different than you, and perhaps I've told myself 'fuck off, you need to be capable of more than just happiness to operate properly.' I just can't be a stereotypical 'normal' and fullfill everything I need to be able to; it just doesn't feel right to me, nor does it work. I imagine there are others like me.

So I don't drink often to get to sleep. I don't drink often at all, for any reason. Why did I ever use drugs? -Because I liked the idea of them, and while I used them recreationally I liked every part of them...and I still like the idea of drugs even after I've quit them years ago (without therapy or chemical intervention). And I still cherish the memories of when I was on them as much as any other memories, and I'd not do things differently if given the chance. But I can't use drugs for recreation any more, I just can't and so I don't, but I've nothing against them when they're used for the right purpose (which may include use as recreation more often than it includes using them to try to correct a mental difficulty). It's not something I consider inherently wrong in either situation, but I will say you'll achieve recreation with drugs more often than you'll achieve a real healing of the mind.

It would be wrong for me to be strung out all the time in my life today, but it was great and harmless fun, when we used them, years ago...and we always knew what we were putting into ourselves and had access to try just about everything. As I've said, Brit used to call Poison Control inorder to figure out what would make a decent cocktail and in what doses, when we weren't sure. Actually, we used them with a regular group of about five other friends, used them for weeks at a time with a two or three day break inbetween, and used them for years and none of us ever needed rehab to quit, none of us have/had problems at all as result. It is not that way for everyone, but, that's part of point. It's also a part of my point that you can't really take them constantly and forever. And some of them just suck all the time.

One can get ketamine or lithium or ritalin, any drug, fairly easily, legally or illegally. If you wanted to, you could aquire some and try them and see how it might be wrong to force some one to take them. They are not right for everyone--in some people they can create a more dangerous condition. The most popular drugs used in suicides are antidepressants, prescribed to treat depression in the people who have used them to top themselves. That really says something. I should also say that I've injected some of those antidepressants in combinations. It's not something vague to me. And as for ketamine, for example, ketamine has had 'depression' listed as one of it's side effects for years. From experience, I'm not willing not give ketamine credit as a drug that either causes or "cures" depression. And it burns like hell and turns you into a zombie, if it does temporarily cure depression in some people, at any rate. You can't feel anything on that shit, let alone depression. And feeling nothing is not what people are usually going for.

[Fierce Critter]

At this point, I'm not able to focus on everything being said, but I still get the overall impression that "all or nothing" thinking is going on.

I'm going to at this point agree to disagree. My experiences are very different, and I could offer examples that would dispute some of what you say.

But I'm cool with not trying to advocate/proselytize/change your mind if what you believe works for you. I'm not usually one to say "I don't have time for this" but that's part of my self-imposed therapy - learning when to just let something go and spend time on higher priorities.

[Paper Hearts]

Well, I just want you to know that I wasn't directing this thread at you and that I hope you feel better, by whatever means.

[Fierce Critter]

Well, I just want you to know that I wasn't directing this thread at you and that I hope you feel better, by whatever means.

Oh, I realize that. But we were having some direct disagreements, and I'm cool with that. Just don't want to spend anymore time on it.

There was a day I'd debate something ad-infinitum, until some kind of accession or concession would happen between parties. But that's not important to me anymore, in my grand scheme of things.

I hope I get to feel better, too. 'Cause I'm real sick of this. I'm still interested in reading everything I can about how others have dealt with or experienced depression & related afflictions, 'cause all knowledge is good knowledge.