An 'atm For Jesus'

[Der Nister]

How lame is this, a kiosk for Jesus. Just when you thought you've seen it all.

Jesus ATM

I'm sure the blind followers will give as usual but in my mind - this is yet one more farse from the religous wackos.

*rolls eyes*

[BrassFusion]

It's amazing how some people have no capacity to recognize evil incarnate when it stares them right in the face.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

Seems fine to me unless i'm missing something, granted i did read that article >fast<.>

Just a different way to donate money? You can donate over the phone "a technological device" doing it via a cardswipe machine doesn't seem particularly bad to me.

[BrassFusion]

Seems fine to me unless i'm missing something, granted i did read that article >fast<.

Just a different way to donate money? You can donate over the phone "a technological device" doing it via a cardswipe machine doesn't seem particularly bad to me.

Probably some of the money they're donating is going to be used for installing more kiosks.

[Lilith]

Personally i have gotten to church and had no cash, I simply had forgotten to stop at an atm, it would have been nice to have one at church to withdrawal from my account or even transfer money to them, I don't think i would do it on credit though paying interest on a donation does not make sense to me. ANy how with three kids and a mind that does think in debit machines and such to pay for everything it would make life easier. If it makes my life a bit easier i would not mind if they used some of the money to install these.

imho

[n0Mad]

I don't mind the actual machines themselves. It's a decent idea and it works for the church so more power to them. What irks me though is the fact that they're selling other machines to other churches. That wouldn't even be so bad except they're charging a licensing fee! So much for charity.

[pomba gira]

Nothing new... the megachurches have had atm/debit facilities for years, so now some of the smaller congregations are following suit. It makes sense because the goal for most churches is to have as many members tithe as possible... your members HAVE to tithe if you are going to do things like buying girls out of prostitution in India and funding orphanages for AIDS orphans in Ghana... or giving vouchers for local women to buy job interview clothing. And if you're talking about tithing, well, you aren't gonna toss that kind of loot in the plate in cash... most people write checks for their tithes or for the main offering if they don't tithe, so how is swiping a card that different? I'm not a churchgoer but I use my debit card for just about EVERYTHING... I usually only pay cash for purchases under $20 or so. If I did go to church, like Lillith, there would certainly be times when I forgot to get cash before going. So I would appreciate that convenience.

I have to agree w/Spook, tho- peddling & licensing the machines to other churches is kind of lame, and definitely steps over the line between church works & standard business.

[Steven]

great post Pomba.

I htink what may be the true underlying tensionhere is that people take offense to the church asking for their money....they take offense to the know Chrisianeze standard of ten percent, they smell a rat, etc. etc. etc.

IN some cases, yes a Rat is present.

IN most cases, it is not. Most people who take issue cannot likewise tell me about their local church, where the titehs go, who gets helped, what the budget requirements are, and how many people in need go to the church for assistance. The numbers are huge. the number of people liikewise, who get help here on a daily basis for basic needs (including overlooked financial aid in general) are also huge.

Just one small example, My church feeds thousands of people every month, for "free".

they have to rent storage space, trucks, and equipment to do it.

they also do NOT rewuire those in asistance to be christians, or church memebers, or to attend a class or any nonsense. they just give because the need is everywhere.

for those of yo who may be so offended, i mean no disrespect - but I ask you:

who are you feeding every week?

clothing?

housing?

giving free licensed family counceling to?

who's rent or house payment did you assist with?

phone bill?

broken transmission?

get it? this stuff takes huge amounts of cash. On top of it the lights need to stay on, databases need to be maintained, staff need s to get paid to pay THEIR bills responsibly, etc, etc, etc.

you can find the obvious charlatans, thsi si true.

but do any of you ever, search for what is legitimite? I promsie you it is all around you.

[Lilith]

I wonder what the costs and monthly fees of installing a "regular" atm would be versus this persons system?

I understand why they charge a fee, they offer support and such on the machine itself which can be a blessing when a church like mine cant get any one to operate power point for our services.

I would say the only issue i have with the article, these particular machines, and the way they have it set up is the Couple is a For profit organization, and even though they promise to donate if they get rich there is no guarantee.

I think widely this idea would be more accepted if it was all ran in a non profit way or the local bank the church uses offered up an atm and it ran as any other atm in any local party store. There would still be service fees with out the play on God which i think after a good night sleep does not sit well with me. See our pastor speak of how we are not supposed to Use God and things of that nature for personal financial gain. So my issue is not the church or God or religion but with the individual people using this for there own personal financial gain.

I do how ever hold to my above statement that if an atm was at church it would make life easier and i personally would not mind it being there or the fees associated with it.

Steven to answer your question above even though i am not offened, this is how our chuch gives back,

We can wear jeans and t shirts have blue hair piecred eye brows all in black , give $3 or $200000000 and they still wecome you.

They hold a yearly Free Yard sale with very nice items, i mean like brand new not broken great condition stuff donated from the members, this yard sale is open to the community and 100% Free It is comming up in Oct so if any one wants the info hit me up.

We send care packages to US soldiers over seas.

They hold couple, finacial, 12 step, classes for who ever needs such services.

They do have one on one couseling if needed.

They recently held a Surprise baby shower for a single mom who is on her 3rd child but had nothing for the baby.

They have several Fellowship hot dog lunches, usually monthly for whom ever to come and enjoy.

We are fully involved with our community imporvemnt and saftey events, police, fire schools etc.....

They give out the usual holiday baskets for those who need.

They fees associated with childrens activities are waived if you cant afford them and the children are still wecome and they get to go on the trips, get the t shirt etc.....

Gift cards to people gettin back on there feet.

Cash to missions

Hospital visitation and support for family dealing with health issues.

I have only been in this church for a few months now and this is just a sample of the things i have seen them give, it takes time and money to accomplish these things

[pomba gira]

great post Pomba.

I htink what may be the true underlying tensionhere is that people take offense to the church asking for their money....they take offense to the know Chrisianeze standard of ten percent, they smell a rat, etc. etc. etc.

IN some cases, yes a Rat is present.

........

you can find the obvious charlatans, thsi si true.

but do any of you ever, search for what is legitimite? I promsie you it is all around you.

That's what I was trying to say. Gods know I am no lover of the "religious right" but that is not what ALL organized religion is about. & I may have issues with organized religion in general, but I also believe in giving credit where it's due. Historically, African-American churches functioned as social service organization when those kind of services were simply not available anywhere else... and that tradition of community service is still taken very seriously. As I said, I'm not a churchgoer these days but I grew up in the church and have family members who are very involved (my stepdad is a pastor of a medium-sized church and my brother is minister of music at a very large one) so I have a good idea of what goes into running a church and what kind of works they are doing nowadays. All of the things Lilith & Steven mentioned & more... from providing van transport so kids can visit incarcerated parents, or families can shop in the suburbs where food is cheaper, to offering college application & financial aid workshops.

With all that said, I have to agree with Lilith afa using matters of spirit for personal gain. I don't know if the "atm for Jesus" line is actually a part of the Baker's marketing package, but my feeling is that comes too close to the whole "god wants you to be rich" thing that seems to be gaining popularity recently. To me this attitude is just a retread of that old Rev. Ike charlatanism. There is nothing spiritual or righteous about endorsing wealth for its own sake.

[Steven]

I wonder what the costs and monthly fees of installing a "regular" atm would be versus this persons system?

I understand why they charge a fee, they offer support and such on the machine itself which can be a blessing when a church like mine cant get any one to operate power point for our services.

I would say the only issue i have with the article, these particular machines, and the way they have it set up is the Couple is a For profit organization, and even though they promise to donate if they get rich there is no guarantee.

I think widely this idea would be more accepted if it was all ran in a non profit way or the local bank the church uses offered up an atm and it ran as any other atm in any local party store. There would still be service fees with out the play on God which i think after a good night sleep does not sit well with me. See our pastor speak of how we are not supposed to Use God and things of that nature for personal financial gain. So my issue is not the church or God or religion but with the individual people using this for there own personal financial gain.

I do how ever hold to my above statement that if an atm was at church it would make life easier and i personally would not mind it being there or the fees associated with it.

Steven to answer your question above even though i am not offened, this is how our chuch gives back,

We can wear jeans and t shirts have blue hair piecred eye brows all in black , give $3 or $200000000 and they still wecome you.

They hold a yearly Free Yard sale with very nice items, i mean like brand new not broken great condition stuff donated from the members, this yard sale is open to the community and 100% Free It is comming up in Oct so if any one wants the info hit me up.

We send care packages to US soldiers over seas.

They hold couple, finacial, 12 step, classes for who ever needs such services.

They do have one on one couseling if needed.

They recently held a Surprise baby shower for a single mom who is on her 3rd child but had nothing for the baby.

They have several Fellowship hot dog lunches, usually monthly for whom ever to come and enjoy.

We are fully involved with our community imporvemnt and saftey events, police, fire schools etc.....

They give out the usual holiday baskets for those who need.

They fees associated with childrens activities are waived if you cant afford them and the children are still wecome and they get to go on the trips, get the t shirt etc.....

Gift cards to people gettin back on there feet.

Cash to missions

Hospital visitation and support for family dealing with health issues.

I have only been in this church for a few months now and this is just a sample of the things i have seen them give, it takes time and money to accomplish these things

this was a good post.

and I'm very glad to see that you can see - how the church really can and is a viable resource for the community. My church is exactly the same way, and I know personally some fo the people who they have impacted.

IN all honesty I did not even go to the link and read it - I need to do that.

my premise is and was....what are we REALLY taking issue with here people?

perhaps I was a bit premature? I do grow tired of the countless cracks I have heard over many years about tithes and offerings within the church, 99% of the time coming from peopl who do not normally practice consistent charity as part of their own individual lifestyles. ANd thats ok too, but the point I'm making is that you often (the critics) can not see what you do not recognize...because it is simply not familiar to you.

[Steven]

With all that said, I have to agree with Lilith afa using matters of spirit for personal gain. I don't know if the "atm for Jesus" line is actually a part of the Baker's marketing package, but my feeling is that comes too close to the whole "god wants you to be rich" thing that seems to be gaining popularity recently. To me this attitude is just a retread of that old Rev. Ike charlatanism. There is nothing spiritual or righteous about endorsing wealth for its own sake.

this I understand I agree with.

sounds kind like the old "name it and claim it" style of religosity.

the sad part about this sort of thign is that good people get taken, however they have a personal responsibility to do a little digging, read between the lines, and most important - seek out biblically if what they are expereinceing and being led into is actually consistent with scripture. If its not, and you cant influence a change back to dececny and order - leave.

[Marblez]

I find no difficulty with the idea of the the "man" and his "wife" making a profit off of his invention.

Most christian churches, to my knowledge, do not request that you be poor. You may be surprised to learn that most churches don't even pay a pastor/minister, whatever, enough to maintain a decent middle class livelyhood... most of them have actual "jobs" outside of the church.

Most churches (other than catholic, of course) actually allow their leadership to get married and even to have children (gasp!!).

Tell me, exactly how the pastor is supposed to pay for his children to have the ability to attend a decent college, retire at a decent retirement age, have family vacations where they can bond and enjoy other aspects of normal family life. How pissed off would you be if you really thought about YOUR tithes directly taking the pastor's family to Disneyland and paying for the Pre-Med curriculum for his daughter at the University of Michigan?? Or do they not deserve this level of extravagance because their father serves God and pastors a church??

[BrassFusion]

I find no difficulty with the idea of the the "man" and his "wife" making a profit off of his invention.

Most christian churches, to my knowledge, do not request that you be poor. You may be surprised to learn that most churches don't even pay a pastor/minister, whatever, enough to maintain a decent middle class livelyhood... most of them have actual "jobs" outside of the church.

Most churches (other than catholic, of course) actually allow their leadership to get married and even to have children (gasp!!).

Tell me, exactly how the pastor is supposed to pay for his children to have the ability to attend a decent college, retire at a decent retirement age, have family vacations where they can bond and enjoy other aspects of normal family life. How pissed off would you be if you really thought about YOUR tithes directly taking the pastor's family to Disneyland and paying for the Pre-Med curriculum for his daughter at the University of Michigan?? Or do they not deserve this level of extravagance because their father serves God and pastors a church??

If religion were a necessary service to society (which in my opinion, it is not), it would make sense for a full-time pastor to use profits from collections to lead a typical middle american life, complete with SUVs and Disneyland.

As religion is NOT a necessary service to society, however, I think it's balls that people are willing to pay a guy to tell them how they should live their lives and how much money they should give him because he is a vessel of the Lawd and he's to be trusted on such matters. Thing is, it's THEIR money, not mine, so I can't keep them from frittering it away like that. It just hurts me to know that a lot of churches use tithe money on extravagant things that don't contribute to the whole congregation or society in general.

I have great respect for churches that cap any salaries and spend the rest of every penny they get on various internal and external charities. I definitely do not tithe any church, I never have, but I have donated time on several occassions. I've played my instruments and sang in a few settings without compensation. I did it for the fun and the people and the good experience, I guess. I don't feel that it was contributing to any religion, I just did it to make pretty music for all the people there to enjoy.

Edit: By the way, an automatic donation kiosk qualifies as "extravagant" to me. There is NO reason they need to collect money from people the minute they walk in; if they forget to bring cash, they can write a check or mail one from home. Hell, I'm surprised a lot of churches don't have paypal, or weekly or monthly donations set up online, much like...

*gasp!*

DGN!!!!!

you're not going to use some of the donations to set up a kiosk somewhere, are ya, troy?

[Steven]

Laura and I tithe online. Many chruches offer this convenience.

Lots of churches have that provision. IN California we mailed our weekly tithes in. Whatever, a Tithe, if givin freely, is meant to be just that, given.

What you see as a neccisity for society is obviously open to varying opinions, and there are enough people who disagree with you to maintain the existence of the modern era chruch, therefore - SOMEBODY out there thinks its neccessary.

And you shouldent tithe to a church Brass - that which the church does is done through a community of beleivers. Your not a beleiver, and thats ok, but if you visisted a church you may be suprised to find that your asked NOT to give.

And then finnally, nonbody is giving to a Pastor who is the vessle of the lawd so that he can tell them how to live thier lives because he's to be trusted on such matters. C'mon Brass - thats a preety damn wide brushtroke you just used. I'm a habitual chruch goer. I am a member of the church. I tithe every week, an amount that is budgeted in, and at times we tithe above that "normal" tithe when a situation presents itself that we may personally feel called to. I also teach a marriage in crisis class with my wife at that church, the curriculum of which did not come from this man of The Lawd. And NOBODY - ever - tells me how to live my life. And our lead Pastor is NOT - the "trusted" person in the way in whcih you seem to be presenting.

there are over a thousand attenders at my church.

every one of them, puts on their own shoes and makes their own breakfast without first checking in with the voice of God. Every one of them, is uniquely gifted and has the ability to make cognizant decisions.

Were not a bunch of mindless sheep.

And our Pastor is not a power mongeror with a jesus complex.

All of us, Pastor included, are simply people, trying to keep it real, keep it moving, keep it relevent, and we try to honor God along the way. Remember that ultimately the church is the extension of the church goers - therefore whatever the churchgoers feel is appropriate in terms of how tithing is faccilitated is up to them.

They CAN change thigns by the way Brass. Its a misconception to think that these decisions are implimented by Pastors. 99% of the time, you have chruch boards and Eldor boards who facilitate this process, including most of the administrative issues. And these boards are voted on, and are subject to limited terms. There is no man of The Lawd in that process.

Yes, alot of churches do it wrong.

but ALOT of churches do it right....I'd venture to say most.

[BrassFusion]

I know... that's why I said I have a lot of respect for many churches.

And me, being asked NOT to donate? Don't make me laugh. That's NEVER happened, not even in any of the churches I've been paid to play in.

Though once, I played at St. Thecla's in Clinton Township for an easter service as a member of a brass quintet. One of our trumpet players attended the church and they asked him if we'd play. We were promised fifty bucks each for the service, which isn't terrible, and we all lived pretty close.

The homily was about tithing. Just tithing. I can't tell you the black cloud of guilt and sense of the presence of evil I felt when the guy talked about how it was so IMPERATIVE that the congregation give at LEAST 8% of their earnings when I was getting paid to sit through it.

Oh, and they had a guy playing cheesy broken chords on an electric piano during the offering. It was mostly minor with the occassional borrowed major to make the people feel their money was being put to a higher spiritual purpose.

[Vampyro]

Personally, I try to keep myself out of any religeous talk at all, but an Donations ATM? Hm... this is pretty weird how there's profit out of charaty... however I'm sure the ATM makers made sure they'd get their peice of the cash pie... Well I guess if a certain church wants an easy way to donate money through a plastic card and not mind the extra fees, it works out allright for them. It may seem evil, but hey, it's up to them to decide if they want to have a device that makes someone profit off charaty, or to petition against it.

[sass_in_the_pants]

I think if my church installed an ATM machine, I'd be annoyed, purely on a cost-benefit basis. The additional returns on such a machine would not cover the cost. However, my church does have automatic withdrawl from your checking account. I use it. I love it, actually. I never have to remember those little envelopes or my checkbook. And if I miss, I at least know that I contributed financially, if not spiritually, for a week. I don't know, I like my church, I want to make sure it stays around, so even if my butt isn't in the seat, my money's in the coffers, so I know the electricity will still be on next week, when my butt WILL be in the seat.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

Britney Spears music is not nessisary for society. People "donate" money to buy her CDs becasue they want to. If people want to support their religion of choice i see no issue with that. If somone along the way makes a personal profit? Hrmm. Well if they spend their whole day working on "the church" i dont see anything wrong with it being their profession. How much "profit" is too much? Judgement call, no pun intended.

Maybe you or I might think its "false religion" but when its a faith-based organ, good luck debating what is "True" and what is "False". As long as they arent lying about what they do with the money and actually say "this money is going to the church... and guess what , im an emplyoee of the church so some of it goes to me".

Just to throw my two cents in on the "finding fault" comments above, its true we tend to focus on the negative. Hollywood doesnt help. Cant remember the last time i saw a "christian" in a movie not portrayed as some kind of weirdo.

There is a lot more good in the world than there is bad i think.

[Steven]

I know... that's why I said I have a lot of respect for many churches.

And me, being asked NOT to donate? Don't make me laugh. That's NEVER happened, not even in any of the churches I've been paid to play in.

Though once, I played at St. Thecla's in Clinton Township for an easter service as a member of a brass quintet. One of our trumpet players attended the church and they asked him if we'd play. We were promised fifty bucks each for the service, which isn't terrible, and we all lived pretty close.

The homily was about tithing. Just tithing. I can't tell you the black cloud of guilt and sense of the presence of evil I felt when the guy talked about how it was so IMPERATIVE that the congregation give at LEAST 8% of their earnings when I was getting paid to sit through it.

Oh, and they had a guy playing cheesy broken chords on an electric piano during the offering. It was mostly minor with the occassional borrowed major to make the people feel their money was being put to a higher spiritual purpose.

actually the true biblical ideal is 10%

and if you ever come to my church you will not be asked to tithe and you will therefore owe me a mexican lunch as a neener neer counter to your dont make me laugh and I'd venture Brass (no disrespect intended) that I probably have been personally involved with more churches and have sat with far more clergy, elders, and minesterial servants than you have and I therefore hold to my ideal that I introduced earlier and if i were cocky id even add a "dont make ME laugh" of my own....

by the way many churches who actively pursue charitable works actually operate in the red. that 10 percent helps. But in all honesty its rarely given. I dont even give ten percent, but it is a worthwhile goal Laura and I are working toward.

[Steven]

Britney Spears music is not nessisary for society. People "donate" money to buy her CDs becasue they want to. If people want to support their religion of choice i see no issue with that. If somone along the way makes a personal profit? Hrmm. Well if they spend their whole day working on "the church" i dont see anything wrong with it being their profession. How much "profit" is too much? Judgement call, no pun intended.

Maybe you or I might think its "false religion" but when its a faith-based organ, good luck debating what is "True" and what is "False". As long as they arent lying about what they do with the money and actually say "this money is going to the church... and guess what , im an emplyoee of the church so some of it goes to me".

Just to throw my two cents in on the "finding fault" comments above, its true we tend to focus on the negative. Hollywood doesnt help. Cant remember the last time i saw a "christian" in a movie not portrayed as some kind of weirdo.

There is a lot more good in the world than there is bad i think.

Thank you for this one Troy.

[Steven]

I think if my church installed an ATM machine, I'd be annoyed, purely on a cost-benefit basis. The additional returns on such a machine would not cover the cost. However, my church does have automatic withdrawl from your checking account. I use it. I love it, actually. I never have to remember those little envelopes or my checkbook. And if I miss, I at least know that I contributed financially, if not spiritually, for a week. I don't know, I like my church, I want to make sure it stays around, so even if my butt isn't in the seat, my money's in the coffers, so I know the electricity will still be on next week, when my butt WILL be in the seat.

exactly. the convenience is great. we feel the same way.

[BrassFusion]

actually the true biblical ideal is 10%

and if you ever come to my church you will not be asked to tithe and you will therefore owe me a mexican lunch as a neener neer counter to your dont make me laugh and I'd venture Brass (no disrespect intended) that I probably have been personally involved with more churches and have sat with far more clergy, elders, and minesterial servants than you have and I therefore hold to my ideal that I introduced earlier and if i were cocky id even add a "dont make ME laugh" of my own....

by the way many churches who actively pursue charitable works actually operate in the red. that 10 percent helps. But in all honesty its rarely given. I dont even give ten percent, but it is a worthwhile goal Laura and I are working toward.

of course you've been deeply involved in more churches, sillybuns, you're quite a bit older than me, not to mention the whole "christian" thing.

and what's a mexican lunch? is that some sick fetish thing, like a glass-bottom boat? ew.

/jack

[Lilith]

I have sat in my church and heard the pastor ask guests non believer and believers alike not to give anything and not to feel obligated or guilty. They were all invited to God's house and usually when some one is invited in to your home you do not expect them to pay for their time there.

After sitting in on a few board member meeting even though i am not a member I am fully aware that my tithes go in to paying our pastor or the music ministry director salary, how those salaries are based and why they voted in a raise or decrees and i am fully accepting of them spending there salary how ever they see fit for there family, if they take it and it is budgeted for them to go to disney then God has Bless them.

What i do have issue with is usually when some one serves the lord weather it be inventing an atm machine with super software or donating a few moments of time to sit with a family who suffered a death they usual don't think in dollars and cents. They don't plan to get rich and say things like if we do i'll donate, They think of how this will serve the Lord and hope it serves the purpose in which it is intended. I am not against any one making money to live/survive we all have too and If they do get rich along the way again God has Bless them. I also get a choice as to what Fund my tithe can go into, missions, general, community etc.......

As for other issues assocaited with an atm machine at church, If i forget then it would be convienant to get cash on the spot, I personally cant guarantee i could have a weekly withdrawl from my account due to i never know how much money i will have or what may come up to drain the account, i also cant be certain that if i forgot this week that the money will still be there for me to give next week for many of the same reasons stated above. I also know in my heart that if i miss a week or what have you it will be understood and forgiven as God knows i am not perfect and what is truly in my heart. I also beleive that God puts as much value in using your given talents such as fixing a leaking toliet for free, or playing the flute as he does with monetary doantions. There are so many ways to give.

IMHO

P>S

The yard sale in which i referenced in a pervious post in this thread will be held

Saturday October 14 2006

10 am - 2 pm

Bethany Baptist Church

19700 15 Mile Rd, Clinton Twp. Mi 48035

(586) 791 – 1190

If you plan to attend i suggest you go as ealry as possiable they Usually Get a Crowd of about 500 or more through out the day.

[Steven]

of course you've been deeply involved in more churches, sillybuns, you're quite a bit older than me, not to mention the whole "christian" thing.

and what's a mexican lunch? is that some sick fetish thing, like a glass-bottom boat? ew.

/jack

wow.

now I will admit, that I've known a couple of women and have had a few pet names in my day.

But no one has ever called me sillybuns before.

but I'm not protesting....