Where did it all come from?

[Troy Spiral (13)]

Where did everything come from? What's your reasoning for this thinking ?

I've been pondering this one for a long time, and continue to ponder it. Oddly, there really isn't much available on the subject, other than texts that assume you take their word on faith and give little but anecdotal evidince to support their claims, not that i nessisarly expect much more than that. Most of the "serious" attempts to break down a creation "who/what/how", written in modern times, seem to be of it is a "where did the universe come from" or "where did life come from" conversation. Even cosmology, which is supposed to talk about this subject, rarely covers it, and only talks about structure, within structure. (tons of mind blowing books available on this subject, but none really give serious time to what im talking about ....) Not , what i mean by asking the "big question".

What im asking is were did EVERYTHING come from.

That is, for instance, lets say someone says "it came from god/It/He/She/They" ok, where did god(s)/entities come from?

Or "well it came from the big bang" ok.. where did the matter/energy that was the basis for the big bang come from?

Oh it all comes from Cosmic Strings? Oh really? Where did they come from?

Where did it ALL come from? A common answer might be "I don't know" , well ok then...What do you THINK? What's a GUESS?

You'll note my lack of obscure, layman-unreadable philso/techo babble. I can spew plenty out, but it blurs the question for most readers rather that clarifies it.

Attempt , to give this one serious thought rather than an automatic response, or even worse, a wise ass, hitchhikers guide to the galaxy answer.

I really do think this is an "important" (but virtually always ignored/fluffed off) question.

Having been researching this one for over a decade, i probably could come up with a more intellectual sounding , elegantly worded challenge question, but im not sure it would have the desired effect. This one could turn into a semantics / vocabulary argument pretty fast, not that there's much way to avoid it, if someone wants to drag us down that path.

[The_Dark]

Matters happens. In some of those same obscure texts on structure, you find referance to the fact that in a true 100% vacumm, matter happens. More specfically, anti-protons. No one has a vaguest idea where they come from or why they just appear. This translates, btw, into I don't know.

[Daniel]

Personally, I don't think there was a beginning. I'm not a physicist or anything, but I have never been able to wrap my mind around the idea that everything had to start somewhere. Time is just a sequence of events, and it is possible that there was simply never a first event. And there is always the problem of "what caused whatever caused the beginning"? Infinity seems as reasonable of an explanaition as any other.

Of course, I don't care how things began. At this stage in my life, it is more fruitful to focus on problems that are actually somewhat solvable. I realize discovering our origins would have a huge philosophical impact, but the chances of ever being able to actually solve that problem are extremely slim.

[JaneDead]

"Of course, I don't care how things began. At this stage in my life, it is more fruitful to focus on problems that are actually somewhat solvable. I realize discovering our origins would have a huge philosophical impact, but the chances of ever being able to actually solve that problem are extremely slim. "

i agree completely.

[Fierce Critter]

Sorry, but I don't know and I don't care.

I guess I'm with Daniel & Dyno on this.

A few years ago, I would have argued the God theory. But then that ole' "who/what created God" thing comes into play, and frankly I'm just not interested in following that imponderable anymore.

If I were to subscribe to ANY theory today, it'd probably be the, "it always WAS here and always will BE here" idea. But I have absolutely no arguments to back that up.

Sorry if that's the kind of cop-out you were hoping to avoid, Troy. But I guess in times of strife, struggle & "I got REAL problems to deal with" situations, philosophizing "where it all came from" just falls pretty freakin' low on the thinking priority list.

[torn asunder]

i've been studying this as well, and when i get some time, i'll reply - troy, if you'd care to discuss this in detail, pm me... we started a convo like thius at the dgn bowling event, and it was great to have someone knowledgeable on the subject to converse with!

more later! :

[phee]

Assuming that we are "coming and going/beginning and ending" means that we are at first making a few VERY LARGE assumptions in the first place. First of all, that we exist to begin with (not a hard one to believe, but impossible to prove that we do exist in the first place.) But in my opinion MORE IMPORTANTLY: That the universe is linear....

That is to say that it begins at all, or that it ends at all. There are several other ways of looking at the universe that do not include this Euclidian/Linear/Hiarcical(sp) way of thinking. Time itself may not even truelly exist, it may mearly be a way that our paticular form of life makes sense of things. What is before and after really? but a way of catagorizing information that we percieve. Maybe we move in circles and we always have.... maybe time itself is an illusion,

Eastern philosophy goes into this a little bit, and this is not what I specifically (I am a rampant agnostic)

Good topic....

[Troy Spiral (13)]

I think i should start a second post about "why should i care about such and such "big question"" as thats another classic way to derail this conversation and i t, in and of itself is an interesting subject. I had that same opinion pretty much (that is i didnt care) up until the last few years but as i said it will derail the topic. As such i wont touch it here.

A longstanding reason that many have given for why they dont want to post more is that their subjects are hijacked. Im trying to , at least in this rather "serious" socio/political forum make at least a failing attempt to keep things somwhat on topic (and yes it will be un-even ias it would be a full time job to keep , in some cases even one single thread properly on-topic)

"why should i care" posts go here:

http://www.detroitgothic.net/index.php?act...st=0#entry17775

[Troy Spiral (13)]

I think that some people may be making a "it DID have a beginning" asumption, at i know i probably was a few years ago, but im not at this point. Its just the easiest way i can come up with to say "where did it all come from" without having the question be a page long.

I generally tend to think "it" did have , at least some sort of a "construct template" of some sort, at some point, and that time, IS relevant, not nessiarly our current concept of time, but i do belive things have a "when" (even if that means infinate, all-consuming "whens" if not a smooth "before and after".

Two asumptions i do make , and ones that i think are probably the only "on faith" issues i may be imoveable on , i do think there IS an answer and i DO think "things exist and have at least some semblance of an origin point" but that it may be impossible (currently) to know what/how. Thus i think i could still get into the Agnostics of Earth club, but i'd be booted in a future generation (i also think it may be possible to "live forever") once we start to unravel some things that are currently "unknowable".

So whats my current "easy answer" ? Probably something like this:

Everything that exists now, has always existed in one form or another and is "formed" (by itself somehow, or by a creative force) and any argumet about how its a problem on my end if im stupid enough to want to look deeper into this, will not be tolerated!!!

But then what? We assume this "never ending never begining time/space indepent group" has no rules whatsoever? And as such is not even able to be discussed? Bah screw that.

Rage against the dying of the light.

holy crap my posts over the last year have started to get longer and longer.

[torn asunder]

i think that time is a man-made concept. i think everything always has been, in some form or another, and always will be. i think life (as we understand it) is just "god" (call it what you will) getting to know itself. life is the manifestation of thought, which is "god", which is everyone and everything.

this is way over-simplified, but it's easier to explain these things in person for me... :ermm:

[Daniel]

Time is just events happening in sequence. It isn't a manmade construct, but it sort of depends on human narrow scope of perception to experience it.

[Shade Everdark]

Time is a concept that allows us to experience the universe in a way that makes sense to us.

Leaving aside the quantum theories for just a moment, without time, we wouldn't be able to distinguish in what specific location atoms were in, or tell whether they'd moved or not. It's simply another way for us to compartmentalize our experience.

[TomCat]

I'm more worried about "where did it all go?" WTF, all things necessary will be gone before my illegitimate children's children die of old age...sheesh.

[The_Dark]

Nothing ever really goes away. It merely transforms.

[Jarodaka]

Nothing ever really goes away. It merely transforms.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

...like Ginny's sig. The universe was started in Ginny's sig. What about the Underverse?

[Soulrev]

Your mom goes to college

[Mistercreeps]

I use to think about things like this myself. I have found over the years of reading the bible and looking at things going on it the world that I'm not sure I really want to know. The thought that things I have read and seen scares the crap out of me at times. I could argue the point of the book of revalations and things that have come about that have been put in the bible. Again though so many people have read the same words and came up with different meanings.

Right now it's my faith that something greater is out there that keeps me around. I can't explain how or why I feel like I do as I don't have any clue what really made me feel it. About 10 years ago after my moms death I was doing things that I shouldn't of when it was like I was hit with a brick wall. When things got so bad for me that I couldn't take it anymore is when I felt something from inside calling to me. Maybe it was just self consious telling me I needed to stop but I feel it was something else. Something greater that I can't explain with words.

(i also think it may be possible to "live forever") once we start to unravel some things that are currently "unknowable".

The human brain is one of the biggest mysteries. There is so much of it that is unused. I think things such as "super power" if you will are possable. Over the course of time people have done things that are remarkable. Feats brought out by will power beyond knowing. The key is to unlock the parts of the brain that allow these things to happen on a normal basis. I watched my mom suffer with lung cancer and givin 4 months max to live. She had one lung removed because it was so bad they couldn't save it. After 5 years they did a brain scan and found other parts of her brain active. Even the doctors where dumb founded by this and had no answer to what was happening. I was 7 years old when she got cancer and she lived to see me graduate from school. After that her will power faded away and the once active parts in her brain shut down. She died 2 months later. I'm not really sure what all the brain can do but I know it can do more then what it is doing on your normal everyday task.

I know some people beleive in other things and I accept you for the way you are. Being true to yourself is the most important thing. I'm in no way flaming what you feel and I say this because I have seen post like this one before. It turned into a big flame war over one persons thoughts. Though I feel you are all mature enough to accept others thoughts and reasons and grow upon them with your own. In truth nobody knows what is real but what you yourself feel.

[gothicmom]

OFF TOPIC

this thread made me think of something my son,6 years old, says almost once a week. "it's so wierd that we are alive!" "why are we alive?" "why did you make me alive?'

[phee]

That's not strange, I often wonder why you made me alive Gothicmom...

[Troy Spiral (13)]

I have a hard time with the "time was invented by man" concept, as , its something i tend to assume we all exeperince , before we are able to really even contemplate such things, its not something we were "taught" or something we read in a book or were given as a tool by our parents as a proverbial cotton gin.

Its , perhaps "an inate tool used by man" to understand things that he may not otherwise be able to grasp. Without the use of time as a measuring stick we are unable to contemplate, pretty much anything, but im unable to , at least at my current level of understanding buy into that it was "invented" by man, for use. If we want to say that all that exists, was also invented by man, then, we go off into an area of discussion that terns into nearly pure philosophy , with no checkable facts at all and can only be validated by faith without any basis for that faith?

At least with fringe theoretical physics we have the HOPE of checking a few facts, that are currently somewhat , at least in part based on "faith".

Not to say its impossible that "man invented time" , i just think its unlikely.