Burning The American Flag

[BrassFusion]

hate breeds hate - his burning of the american flag exacerbates the hatred of the united states. This brings harm to the united states, and therefore as a member of the united states it brings harm to Phee.

Hating haters breeds hate. If we weren't such assholes about being a beacon of freedom to the world, they'd have no reason to burn our flag. The power of the message would be lost.

[phee]

Hating haters breeds hate. If we weren't such assholes about being a beacon of freedom to the world, they'd have no reason to burn our flag. The power of the message would be lost.

Hating haters breeds hate... yes, and I am not suggesting killing them... but when they do their hatemongering and they hurt themselves... that is amusing... and I personally do not preach being any sort of beacon... and yet I have very little doubt that they (as in hate mongers that burn flags for the reasons stated) want me personally dead....

So let them burn themselves...

[BrassFusion]

Hating haters breeds hate... yes, and I am not suggesting killing them... but when they do their hatemongering and they hurt themselves... that is amusing... and I personally do not preach being any sort of beacon... and yet I have very little doubt that they (as in hate mongers that burn flags for the reasons stated) want me personally dead....

So let them burn themselves...

So they want you dead because they think you want them dead, when in reality you only want them to suffer because they want to see you suffer, and it's ok for you to feel the way you do but it's not ok for them to feel the way they do because there's some huge philosophical difference?

I fundamentally do not understand this.

[Paper Hearts]

I've always thought our flag is of poor design. It's like I want to either expand the little box with the stars in it so that it's the whole flag or else get rid of the blue box all together and just have the stripes.

[phee]

So they want you dead because they think you want them dead, when in reality you only want them to suffer because they want to see you suffer, and it's ok for you to feel the way you do but it's not ok for them to feel the way they do because there's some huge philosophical difference?

I fundamentally do not understand this.

If someone pulls a gun on me... and they end up blowing off their own hand instead of me having to either to get shot or defend myself violently... Is good

How is that hard to understand?

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

BF, many of these people hate us for no other reason than we are not just like them. It would not matter what our policys toward other countrys are... we are not them, so deserve to die. The hard core wacko Muslims with thier far out and violent interpretations of the Quran dont care what we think. They don;t care what we do. We don;t think like them, we dont act like them... and we have no intention of starting to... so, in thier mind.. we need to die. Keep in mind that this fight is far older than the USA... we are just the focus of that hate now.

Think about it... Why was Chris trying to find a no path to India and stumbled upon Cuba by accident?

To find a safer rought that did not involve crossing paths with the Muslim extremists that have always existed.

[phee]

BF, many of these people hate us for no other reason than we are not just like them. It would not matter what our policys toward other countrys are... we are not them, so deserve to die. The hard core wacko Muslims with thier far out and violent interpretations of the Quran dont care what we think. They don;t care what we do. We don;t think like them, we dont act like them... and we have no intention of starting to... so, in thier mind.. we need to die. Keep in mind that this fight is far older than the USA... we are just the focus of that hate now.

Think about it... Why was Chris trying to find a no path to India and stumbled upon Cuba by accident?

To find a safer rought that did not involve crossing paths with the Muslim extremists that have always existed.

This is essentualy correct...

And even if it wasn't.... I think that someone who hates me... and that has never met me happens to hurt themselves? Well all the better. I will not stoop their level and try to kill total strangers, but if a total stranger who wants to kill me hurts himself... I don't see the issue.

[BrassFusion]

BF, many of these people hate us for no other reason than we are not just like them. It would not matter what our policys toward other countrys are... we are not them, so deserve to die. The hard core wacko Christians with thier far out and violent interpretations of the Bible dont care what we think. They don;t care what we do. We don;t think like them, we dont act like them... and we have no intention of starting to... so, in thier mind.. we need to die. Keep in mind that this fight is far older than the Islam faith... we are just the focus of that hate now.

That's what your post says to me. The similarities are mind-boggling. I didn't include the last two lines about Columbus because it's ridiculous. He was trying to find a faster passage to India, because travel by sea was faster than travel by land, and he thought the distance would be significantly shorter.

This is essentualy correct...

And even if it wasn't.... I think that someone who hates me... and that has never met me happens to hurt themselves? Well all the better. I will not stoop their level and try to kill total strangers, but if a total stranger who wants to kill me hurts himself... I don't see the issue.

He doesn't necessarily want to kill you. The fact that you assume he does is harmful, regardless how likely it is that he does. It does no one any good to assume violent intention if it doesn't contribute to a personal plan of action to protect yourself.

[AntiHero]

That needs to be on Jackass. Idiot.

I burned a flag once. Old, faded and ripped. I raised it every day for a year and a half then insisted upon burning it in honor up north. Folded it into a neat triangle and gently set it into a bonfire. It burned hot and bright. Made me feel patriotic, grandad would've been proud.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

BF - Read a real history book, not one that supports the myth of who Columbus was and why he did what he did. There had long been a short and safe passage to east asia from Europe. Going by sea was far longer and had far more danger. Then in 1453 the Muslims invaded, took Constantinople and blocked all traffic to the east. Thats when the Europeans started going round the horn of Africa to get to the East. Columbus wanted a shorter route. he was convinced it would be shorter to go around the world. By the way, you prolly think everyone thought the world was flat then... that would be wrong, most people knew it was round by then. The problem was, noone knew how far it was or what was in between here and there... so to speak. Chris was just the first man with enough balls to try it.

[BrassFusion]

By the way, you prolly think everyone thought the world was flat then... that would be wrong, most people knew it was round by then. The problem was, noone knew how far it was or what was in between here and there... so to speak. Chris was just the first man with enough balls to try it.

Dude, that's obvious as hell, but thanks for dumbing it down for me. And I'm not sure what Muslims blocking trade routes 500 years ago has to do with continued conflict. For all Columbus knew, India could've been a thousand clicks off the coast of Spain. That would've been a much faster route than the mediterranean/land one. There's really no way you can prove he chose to try the new sea route because of those "violent bastard muslims," because that's wholly subjective.

You also can't prove that they didn't have a damn good reason to block the trade routes, so why are you so adamant to judge them? I don't know if you read the paragraph you wrote that I quoted in the last post- I changed a few words to demonstrate my point of view. Hell, we of european ancestry practically wrote the book on xenophobia and assimilation.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

Anti-Americanism? Too much of a minefield for me. Basicly i have to assume not everyone that dislikes america has no good reason for it and that this mass of folk out there are ALL wrong and have no legit reason to dislike us and are all morons. But Islam specificly , as a faith, would i think lead one to dislike the west and its "religious freedom" ideas, unfortunately.

When we are talking about Islam, one of the misconceptions is that Islam is a passive middle-eastern version of chrstianity. It is not. I've read the majorty of the Qu'ran (its pretty short about as long as the new testament) and read a few books on its interpratiation. First off its got tons of biblical style contradictions (and these are denied as being contradictions of course) But, its certianly NOT a "pacificst" religion. Trying to paint it as such is , i think a bow to modern , western sensiblities.

Unfortuantely the Qu'ran is even less clear than the bible is on many subjects. It is a lot of statements, not a "story" in the way that the bible is. Sort of like a whole book of Psalms or Proverbs with not much detailed explinations of things many of the proverbs contradicting each other directly.

Islam has no christ-like figure telling the world to calm down and become pacifist. It specificly points out that there is no christ, and that people that say there is preach a "monsterous falsehood" and has some choice words about what sort of people would preach such lies. Also many of the things that are revered in the west (natrualistic art for instance) is viewed as against god, right there in black and white. Statements to the contrary i think are again, not taken from the Qu'ran but are attempts to change the core teachings of islam to fit western ideas of what is good.

Muhamad was a solider, politician and religious leader. His wars in the defence of the faith are detailed out as being universally good all thoughout the Qu'ran.

Islam basicly assumes a religious real-world state and has specific advice on how to setup political islamic government. Islam assumes that "good muslims" will want to setup a muslamic state. It is old-testament style in its suggestions on how to deal with transgressors. There are some "tolerance" statements in the book but they are outnumbered, probably 10 to 1 by "if they dont get it, wack em" type statements.

To get Islam to work in modern , western culture, basicly it needs to be misrepresented or else its fair to say that Islam is militant in nature. Its stated in several places that war , and death in war can be viewed as a religious duty.

Islam also does not seperate "gods kingdom" from "mans kingdom" in the way chrisianity does. Thus trying to install seperation from chuch and state type democracy in islamic countries is a tough gig.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I can't prove it until you read and understand the last 3000 years of history. Even if you just read the highlights you will understand how that has bearing on what’s going on now. If we ignore our past we are going to repeat it.

Stop trying to blame Europeans and their ancestors for every evil the world has ever known. Whether you want to admit it or not... people of other ethnic backgrounds have been pretty god damn evil and/or just down right disrespectful of anyone different than them. Africans sold Africans into slavery a good portion of the time. Some native American tribes were cannibals, but only people from other tribes. The Japanese slaughtered everyone in their path when they invaded China. The Chinese have the patent on almost every torture device ever invented. People have the potential to do really bad things. Skin color and/or religion have no bearing on that fact. You can ignore it all you want… but history proves that you are in a war that has been going on for over 3000 years and no one is winning.

No one wanted to sail west because it was unknown. That meant DEATH. More importantly to the people that owned the ships.. that meant they lost a ship and a ship was worth a damn large amount of gold. The land route was months shorter and far safer. Translate that to “cheaper”. The Mongols that ruled the whole route from Europe made it that way. When the Ottomans took over what we call Turkey, they closed the route to Christians. It was a carry over act from the Crusades. Christians were Infidels that needed to be converted or killed. There was more to it than that… it’s a far more complicated mess than most want to deal with. Politics, Religion and general Bigotry on all people involved by all people involved.

My point is… you focusing on the last 50-75 years of history and making judgments. That’s only a small portion of everything that has lead up to the current day events and everything is relevant to the now.

[BrassFusion]

I can't prove it until you read and understand the last 3000 years of history. Even if you just read the highlights you will understand how that has bearing on what’s going on now. If we ignore our past we are going to repeat it.

Stop trying to blame Europeans and their ancestors for every evil the world has ever known. Whether you want to admit it or not... people of other ethnic backgrounds have been pretty god damn evil and/or just down right disrespectful of anyone different than them. Africans sold Africans into slavery a good portion of the time. Some native American tribes were cannibals, but only people from other tribes. The Japanese slaughtered everyone in their path when they invaded China. The Chinese have the patent on almost every torture device ever invented. People have the potential to do really bad things. Skin color and/or religion have no bearing on that fact. You can ignore it all you want… but history proves that you are in a war that has been going on for over 3000 years and no one is winning.

No one wanted to sail west because it was unknown. That meant DEATH. More importantly to the people that owned the ships.. that meant they lost a ship and a ship was worth a damn large amount of gold. The land route was months shorter and far safer. Translate that to “cheaper”. The Mongols that ruled the whole route from Europe made it that way. When the Ottomans took over what we call Turkey, they closed the route to Christians. It was a carry over act from the Crusades. Christians were Infidels that needed to be converted or killed. There was more to it than that… it’s a far more complicated mess than most want to deal with. Politics, Religion and general Bigotry on all people involved by all people involved.

My point is… you focusing on the last 50-75 years of history and making judgments. That’s only a small portion of everything that has lead up to the current day events and everything is relevant to the now.

I'm not saying they're not violent. I'm saying it's hypocritical to insult them for non-violent demonstration, and short-sighted to lump all of them into the same ideology. Sure, MOST of them probably think that all evil Americans must die, but it's an unfair generalization to apply to every Muslim and doing so makes us look bad and makes more people hate us.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

I can't prove it until you read and understand the last 3000 years of history. Even if you just read the highlights you will understand how that has bearing on what’s going on now. If we ignore our past we are going to repeat it.

Stop trying to blame Europeans and their ancestors for every evil the world has ever known. Whether you want to admit it or not... people of other ethnic backgrounds have been pretty god damn evil and/or just down right disrespectful of anyone different than them. Africans sold Africans into slavery a good portion of the time. Some native American tribes were cannibals, but only people from other tribes. The Japanese slaughtered everyone in their path when they invaded China. The Chinese have the patent on almost every torture device ever invented. People have the potential to do really bad things. Skin color and/or religion have no bearing on that fact. You can ignore it all you want… but history proves that you are in a war that has been going on for over 3000 years and no one is winning.

No one wanted to sail west because it was unknown. That meant DEATH. More importantly to the people that owned the ships.. that meant they lost a ship and a ship was worth a damn large amount of gold. The land route was months shorter and far safer. Translate that to “cheaper”. The Mongols that ruled the whole route from Europe made it that way. When the Ottomans took over what we call Turkey, they closed the route to Christians. It was a carry over act from the Crusades. Christians were Infidels that needed to be converted or killed. There was more to it than that… it’s a far more complicated mess than most want to deal with. Politics, Religion and general Bigotry on all people involved by all people involved.

My point is… you focusing on the last 50-75 years of history and making judgments. That’s only a small portion of everything that has lead up to the current day events and everything is relevant to the now.

If you want to say that we >must

I see no one blaming all the worlds evils on europe or european desendants above. Nor is anyone saying there is no historical context to todays issues that i can see.

Eventually we'd come to the realization that they cannot possibly have more historical info at their disposal than the entire body of human knowledge. Which does not include a full record of history leading up to today.

It is possible to be wrong, and often. Even us "europeans" make errors. Assuming (or hoping) for massive intelligence usually i think will just lead us to being irritated / dissapointed. Being pissed off all the time isnt particularly fun for me so i try to assume a minimum of perfection heh.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

BF - You should practive what you preach.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

I'm not saying they're not violent. I'm saying it's hypocritical to insult them for non-violent demonstration, and short-sighted to lump all of them into the same ideology. Sure, MOST of them probably think that all evil Americans must die, but it's an unfair generalization to apply to every Muslim and doing so makes us look bad and makes more people hate us.

I wasnt trying to imply that you were.

Generally, trying to play devils advocate with some "understanding" of anti-americanism is a difficult gig. I think its a noble effort if it comes from trying to find the truth.

But, unfortunately its a very hot issue and even suggesting that the west might be at fault for some of the american-hate out there is heresy to many people.

I have not myself researched the subject all that much other than random articles.

I do personally think america is a good place and probably the best place to live, but i know it has its flaws and we are not perfect. We have made lots of mistakes over the course of our history, people that would like to pretend that we are always the victim of outside "bad press" i think are fooling themselves.

In this particular case, there is a disconnect between this ONE GUY and the whole issue that is being brought up.

I think i agree with you that assuming that this particular , single guy is a terrorist based on very little info is probably not fair. The guy , i think fairly can be considered "a jerk" at least, and probably wouldnt want to spend much time defending him.

[BrassFusion]

I wasnt trying to imply that you were.

Generally, trying to play devils advocate with some "understanding" of anti-americanism is a difficult gig. I think its a noble effort if it comes from trying to find the truth.

But, unfortunately its a very hot issue and even suggesting that the west might be at fault for some of the american-hate out there is heresy to many people.

I have not myself researched the subject all that much other than random articles.

I do personally think america is a good place and probably the best place to live, but i know it has its flaws and we are not perfect. We have made lots of mistakes over the course of our history, people that would like to pretend that we are always the victim of outside "bad press" i think are fooling themselves.

In this particular case, there is a disconnect between this ONE GUY and the whole issue that is being brought up.

I think i agree with you that assuming that this particular , single guy is a terrorist based on very little info is probably not fair. The guy , i think fairly can be considered "a jerk" at least, and probably wouldnt want to spend much time defending him.

oh, totally, he's most likely a jerk. but i gotta defend his right to express himself in that manner. it's the voltaire thing, it's the first amendment thing. that's more important to me than whether our flag gets burned, or even whether he suicide bombs israel- that's not something I can prevent anyway.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Troy, BF flat out said she could see no relation between the events of long ago with today. I was pointing out that there is a long drawn out, well documented history of events that have lead up to the current mindset. I was also trying to show that "he" does in fact want to kill me... kill me or subjugate me.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I can say fairly confidently that "he" doesn't give a flying fuck about his "rights" under our constitution. I can say that he thinks our Constitution is "against God" and would burn it in a moment.

[BrassFusion]

Troy, BF flat out said she could see no relation between the events of long ago with today. I was pointing out that there is a long drawn out, well documented history of events that have lead up to the current mindset. I was also trying to show that "he" does in fact want to kill me... kill me or subjugate me.

I can say fairly confidently that "he" doesn't give a flying fuck about his "rights" under our constitution. I can say that he thinks our Constitution is "against God" and would burn it in a moment.

Even if you're right about that, which you most likely are, it doesn't do anyone any good to make those divisive assumptions. Everyone deserves the benefit of the doubt, and if we Americans showed them that respect that we hypocritically demand, we wouldn't be as universally hated.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

He's free to beleive any crazy ass idea he wants. He can freely practice any form of religion he cares to. I really don't care. Until he picks up a gun, a bomb or anyother device of war and starts calling for my country, my people, my family, my kids and even you to die.

I'm not going to sympathise with him. I'm not going to hug him and tell him everything is going to be ok. I'm going distrust him from then on. I'm going to pray that not enough people think like him for them to actually succeed at doing that. I am going to pray that people near him of more moderate and accepting thought teach him to not be so hateful. Or shoot him like a rabid dog. I really don't care about him. I care about people I can directly relate to on some level. Just like just about everyone else on the planet.

[BrassFusion]

He's free to beleive any crazy ass idea he wants. He can freely practice any form of religion he cares to. I really don't care. Until he picks up a gun, a bomb or anyother device of war and starts calling for my country, my people, my family, my kids and even you to die.

I'm not going to sympathise with him. I'm not going to hug him and tell him everything is going to be ok. I'm going distrust him from then on. I'm going to pray that not enough people think like him for them to actually succeed at doing that. I am going to pray that people near him of more moderate and accepting thought teach him to not be so hateful. Or shoot him like a rabid dog. I really don't care about him. I care about people I can directly relate to on some level. Just like just about everyone else on the planet.

You could easily directly relate to him if you looked for ways in which you're common- just as he could find a way to relate to you, if he tried. But people don't try. They don't care. Their god says everyone else must die, or is going to hell, or their president says that people from other religious groups present a threat to your freedom, and that's enough for most people.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

Troy, BF flat out said she could see no relation between the events of long ago with today. I was pointing out that there is a long drawn out, well documented history of events that have lead up to the current mindset. I was also trying to show that "he" does in fact want to kill me... kill me or subjugate me.

I must have missed that part. (brasses comment) i thought i was fairly careful about reading this thread but i guess not.

I would mildly agree (as suggested above in my post) that historical context , while somewhat helpful to understand situations, should be fairly low on the list of key factors when assesing a situation.

What my ancestors did, isnt particularly relevant to my personal respositiblity and/or current moral code. It might explain WHY partially things are the way they are, but ultimately its up to the current generation to be held responsible for its own actions. Its not my fault that my great, great grandfather might have been an asshole, for example.

He's free to beleive any crazy ass idea he wants. He can freely practice any form of religion he cares to. I really don't care. Until he picks up a gun, a bomb or anyother device of war and starts calling for my country, my people, my family, my kids and even you to die.

I'm not going to sympathise with him. I'm not going to hug him and tell him everything is going to be ok. I'm going distrust him from then on. I'm going to pray that not enough people think like him for them to actually succeed at doing that. I am going to pray that people near him of more moderate and accepting thought teach him to not be so hateful. Or shoot him like a rabid dog. I really don't care about him. I care about people I can directly relate to on some level. Just like just about everyone else on the planet.

I'd like to mildly suggest that even if you dont "want" to understand such a guy , its important that at least some of us do. The "just shoot them" mentality wont fix the problem long term. There arent enough bullets (figurativly) we have to fix the problem , not just shoot it. Blasting it or locking it up forever it is only a short term solution, since its not realistic to nuke everyone and every "criminal". A problem has to be (honestly) looked at and understood if its to be fixed when it is something this deeply seated.

Its more effective to look at a problem, try to "sympathize" with it, therefor understand it if its to be fixed.

Revenge does not fix the problem, might make us feel better , but really i hope the goal is to fix the problem. If that is the case, then it takes understanding. Even if it feels... lets say tree-huggy to do so.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I wish it were that simple. I wish we could go back to pre-wwii foreign policy. Oh wait... no one liked us when we didn't fuck with other countries internal politics.

Bah...

Cut all foreign aide. Cut all funding to the UN. For 6 months. Have a real sit in. Hell, while we are at it... drain all foreign investmants. With draw all our military into our own borders. Then place our demands on the international table. They hate us, but they need us just as much as we need them.