Why don't you care about the origin of all things?

[Troy Spiral (13)]

Generally whenever the subject of "what is the creator" or "is there a creator?"

Sometimes it turns into "i dont care".

Why dont you care? For some reason i cant help but think this is the same thing that the were many dont care about "nerdy stuff" becasue it was hard and/or they "didnt know" so they turned it into "its a waste of time and boring" rather than go through the trouble to look into it. Not to say that im RIGHT , but thats just my gut feeling (and has been show , at least in my mind , to be correct in many cases from conversations i've had)

I cant help but think this question is more interesting than many of thing things we spend our time thinking about, surely more relevant than what type of new shoelaces to buy or whos going to win americans funniest home video this week. (obvously just ment as an example of something , perhaps at least "mildly important" to someone)

While i generally think it may be un-answerable, if it IS answerable with some sort of "finality" , depending on the answer, it could change how almost everyone looks at the world, that includes their family , their life , their relationships , "everything".

Thats a boring subject? Not interesting? Not important enough to bother with? You dont know so you give up?

[JaneDead]

for me- it is not that i don't care- it is that i don't know. i really don't know... and i don't see how i could ever know.

it is nice to think about it, wonder, discuss it with others- but i will not come to a conclusion. ever. and i don't want to. i like not knowing. i don't think we are supposed to know.

[Fierce Critter]

For some reason i cant help but think this is the same thing that the were many dont care about "nerdy stuff" becasue it was hard and/or they "didnt know" so they turned it into "its a waste of time and boring" rather than go through the trouble to look into it. Not to say that im RIGHT , but thats just my gut feeling (and has been show , at least in my mind , to be correct in many cases from conversations i've had)

Ummm... I know you qualified that with, "not to say that I'm right...", but what all came before that is the kind of "judgment" that turns me personally off these kinds of philosophical discussions sometimes.

I said in response to the original thread something along the lines of having more important things to think about - things that are directly affecting me immediately, and therefore the importance of questions like this falls very low on the priority list.

Just so happens that there have been times when shoelaces were a pretty important thing on my mind. At a time like that, "where did we all come from" would have been a foolish thing to be pondering - a "waste of time".

There are, of course, periods when I might have the luxury of some "free thought time" when I can devote some inward thought to such matters. But sometimes, shoelaces really are more important - and more interesting. :

[Onyx]

Actually it's a pretty amazing concept that we are creatures who can

-- be aware of our own mortality and

-- ponder where we and all around us came from.

I do care and think on this often. I also find it puzzling that some don't.

[TomCat]

I look at ity this way, it's not that I "don't care" it's more that I don't feel like wasting time, precious time, trying to philosiphize and debate something that has been debated & philosifized(I know it's a made up word, but I like it!) by far better men & women than myself since the recorded history of man. Someone hand me a beer. That was a lot of effort. Whew!

[Daniel]

If there is a creator, I certainly care about it. However, it is an unsolvable problem, and energy would be better focused on fixing problems that can be solved. I guess, even still, a creator is of mild significance. It either no longer interacts with us, or it does so behind the curtain in a way that doesn't lend itself to our needing to know about it.

With that said, all evidence and reasoning point to no creator. Unless someone can provide an extremely compelling argument for the existence of a creator, it is an idea that is better shelved.

[torn asunder]

i have two contradictory thoughts on this - one is that there must be a "creator", because life is so amazing and awe-inspiring...

the other is that, the only reason we can ponder these things is because in the infinite amount of random chance in the universe, things worked out *exactly* in a way that we can sit here and ponder this!

[Troy Spiral (13)]

Unfortunately its not possible to cover some of this stuff without making at least minimal tenative judements about the "worth" of an idea. =( There would be no basis for discussions about "value of XYZ" type statements. Thoes judgements may all be in totaly error and i assume many if not most of them are, as we'd have the answers to all of these things if we were infalable (or we'd know such things are not answerable)

"its not relevant to my life" Which is a fair, as a statement, but then go down the list of things we do durring a day, and rarely is it a long list of survival errands every waking minute of every day. For instance a reality show about whos getting of the island, seems at least to me, many orders of magnitude "less relevant" or "less important" than "the origin of the universe and all that exists", at least worthy of 5 minutes a week (for instance), rather than totally absloving myself of the question due to it being "not relevant". Then barring that it turns into "well its just not ENJOYABLE...which leads us to..."

"its to hard" (somewhat relates to the next point also) As with any of this , it has to do with what we put value on. If "the nature of the universe and all that exists" (for example) has "no value" then , there would be no reason to even listen to such discussions , other than just to try and talk people out of their positions. As with the previous point, given what people spend their time on, i cant help but think that this subject would at least rate a pass-though once a month or so despite how hard it is to think upon.

"Its not answerable" seems like a hard one , as it assumes you , in a sense "know the answer" , that is "its not answerable" which would seem to be equally difficult a thing to be sure of. You've in a sense answered the "unawswerable" question in reverse. If the premise is "i dont know becasue i cant know" , then you also couldnt know that. It seems more "safe" for lack of a better term at the moment, to assume there IS an answer still available, than to assume any and all possible solutions have been totally exausted somehow.

Im generally of the opinion we (as a race) havent been around long enough to come to such a sweeping all-encompasing answer such as "we've covered it all, exausted it all, and we've decided , since we know so much, that this one , is just not answerable" just yet. Its akin to saying "I do have the answer to everything! We found it! It is .... there is no answer! Eureka!!" Easy? yes. More plausable than "we dont know yet, we havent covered everything just yet" i tend to think not.

Also, as with most everything i say around here, i really do want to try and get at "the truth" if its totally contradictory to everything i currently think, so be it. Fine with me. I have no need for anything i think currently to stay this way, im more than happy to change my leanings given a strong argument.

Im not, even if it may seem otherwise trying to "argue my position" exactly. If something comes along , that contradicts what i currently think, i try very hard to actually listen to it. Its just that some of these things i've been thinking about for so long, i already have spent XYZ amount of time on some of the more common reasoning, and as such have tenative conclusions.

and yes my spelling and gramar is for shit. :whistling:

[The_Dark]

I care. The debate of it alone has brought about many a great person. People create by debating... argueing. Thinking. The creative thought processes needed to ponder this subject, wether the source scientific or phylisophical, are vitally important to us being who we are. We use it every day. Most don't even realize it. It's about Faith... do you believe the Science? Or does the Religion make more sence. People define themselves by this single question as much if not more than any other. We also use it to judge the charactor of others. The answer isn't really as important as the asking...

42

[Daniel]

I have fairly concluded that most of these "big" questions are unanswerable for a variety of reasons. One, I was a philosophy major, and philosophers for thousands of years have been spinning their wheels on these subjects. Many philosophers wiser and wittier than us, that is. In the past few hundred years, scientists have been spinning their wheels on them. Personally, I think the scientists have a much better chance of cracking these questions than any philosopher. Since I am not a scientist of any kind, and have a research budget of zero, it just seems like a bunch of wheel spinning to focus on origins or creators. I mean, seriously, billions of people have been trying to crack these problems, what makes you think you somehow are able to solve them?

But, let's take the next step. What are these questions going to solve? If we discover a god exists, is it going to change the world? Is discovering god going to force he/she/it to take a greater role in our existence? Is discovering our origins going to alter people's ethics/morality, or lead to some other life changing breakthrough? Would discovering these things have a greater effect than say... finding a cure for cancer or diabetes, or creating an engine that is fueled by water? Or discovering a sound ethical system that people all around the world would embrace that would create lasting peace and harmony within humanity? It seems if you want to spin your wheels on unsolvable problems, it would be to solve a problem that would make a very definite difference in your life, or other people's lives.

If you just enjoy working on these sort of "deep" issues like you are Morpheus in the Matrix movies, then hey... why not? Is it more productive than watching Survivor? Sure! It isn't all lost, because like TheDark said, amazing break throughs can come from interaction and debate. It just seems like it would be better fascilitated by focusing on a more productive topic.

Note. This is all coming from someone who used to do little else than debate these sorts of topics. I spent quite a few years pursuing these discussions with zeal. So, a lot of this is hindsight. What the fuck was I wasting my time for?

[mandelbrotjulia]

I love a good philosophical discussion. The problem is that I don't like the confrontation that often comes with it. Religion, by design, cannot be anything more than theory, and yet people treat their point of views like undebatable fact. Plus, people get so offended if you express a different point of view than their own, it can get kind of scary.

But I could never see it as a 'waste of time'. I mean, the value of time spent is purely up to one's own interpretation.

[paradox]

i love to debate stuff like this, but people tell me i can be argumentative (mwah?) and get loud. i say im just passionate. but i may be somewhat opinionated and hard to sway at times. especially if drinking...

is that a reason?

[Troy Spiral (13)]

"Not worth the time" :

"its not relevant to my life" Which is a fair, as a statement, but then go down the list of things we do durring a day, and rarely is it a long list of survival errands every waking minute of every day. For instance a reality show about whos getting of the island, seems at least to me, many orders of magnitude "less relevant" or "less important" than "the origin of the universe and all that exists", at least worthy of 5 minutes a week (for instance), rather than totally absloving myself of the question due to it being "not relevant". Then barring that it turns into "well its just not ENJOYABLE...which leads us to..."

"its to hard" (somewhat relates to the next point also) As with any of this , it has to do with what we put value on. If "the nature of the universe and all that exists" (for example) has "no value" then , there would be no reason to even listen to such discussions , other than just to try and talk people out of their positions. As with the previous point, given what people spend their time on, i cant help but think that this subject would at least rate a pass-though once a month or so despite how hard it is to think upon.

"Its unknowable, if it was, somone would have figured it out already" :

Im generally of the opinion we (as a race) havent been around long enough to come to such a sweeping all-encompasing answer such as "we've covered it all, exausted it all, and we've decided , since we know so much, that this one , is just not answerable" just yet. Its akin to saying "I do have the answer to everything! We found it! It is .... there is no answer! Eureka!!" Easy? yes. More plausable than "we dont know yet, we havent covered everything just yet" i tend to think not.

[Daniel]

No input from you, Troy? Or is quoting enough, you think?

[Troy Spiral (13)]

In a previous post, i had covered subjects highlighted in red, that where then, brought up after my post, and since i'd already covered them, i figured i'd just quote my own commentary again, rather than re-write the same comentary (which was still relevant) in different words.

Bad job of quoting on my part, wasnt clear in my intent.

[Sybil]

i look around every day.

..at the sky..

..at the ground..

i sit on my driveway at night and stare at the stars...

i live a very fast-pace lifestyle.. and i make decisions constantly..

i stare into the eyes of every person i meet...

i love to play with my dog, Cassidy and i love how she curls up on me and scratches my legs..

i hug and kiss my mom every day before i go to work or to sleep...

i cuss at slow drivers from time to time...

i said all that to say this.....

i did not make the world i live in.. yet, forgive me, sometimes i live my life as though it revolves around me..

i am awed at creation.. the wind, rain, and smiles from people that claim to love me...

i thought my paintings and sketches and photography were unique.. but giving thought daily to a Creator so much more awesome than me, makes me feel small.. but not without significance...

i feel regret when i do wrong because He loves me?

i feel happy when someone gives me a huge hug because He knows i need it?

i cry sometimes and feel He sees me and i wish i wouldnt have acted so hasty?

i hold out my hand to someone in need because He would hold out His hand to me?

..i read alot of books about creation growing up..

and oddly the last one i read was the bible.. and man, i read Genesis over and over because i saw brilliance in it..

i make alot of quick decisions that i end up sorry for..

why would i feel sorry if ~ I ~ were the only one i have to answer to?

if i am my only critic, then all my choices are good, right? hmmm.. things to think about...

i explore all these things daily...

to me they matter..

[Steven]

I DO care - its foundational to everything that I am, and I do beleive that I know the answer but because it reeks of biblical context I'm often ridiculed for being so small minded.

The difficulty in comunicationg this personal value for me, is that people mistake (or accuse) my decalred faith and reasoning behind a desperate need for substance, a crutch per se, and they say these things without knowing me - and therefore without knowing that the evidence of my personal life refutes the "crutch" accusation.

In addition, because I beleive in a God that many have decided simply does not and cannot exist within their worldview - my statements of faith are often painted as ludicrous, and perhaps even sick, or are misinterpreted as the standard self righteousness they've so often experienced at the hands of irresponsible zealouts. I feel as if I pay - the price for this understandable resistance.

Granted....it makes no sense to place faith in a creator who was and always has been here before any and all alleged creation, because everything we expereince is compeltely "Finite".

Yet just as credible - is the undeniable truth that science and philosophy cannot "prove" or break down our existence and the existence of the cosmos from where we stand now - in the reverse order back to the absolute beginning of all things and beyond that begining - and ultiamtely - it again leads to a clash with the "finite" universe that we all share and understand. And can our minds truly contemplate the "beginning" ...either witha secular worldview or a Judeo Christian worldview? My frustration in this is that I can be publically ridiculed in a group format - and yet a sewn up and concrete alternative is never universally agreed upon and handed to me in exchange for my form of worship. And yet it seems as if a great many people become frustrated with my unwillingness to aceept that seemingly empty alternative.

And finnally, because my point of view is often seen as archaic - what is most often mis-identified is the relational core of my christian faith - that part is usually dismissed altogethor or simply ignored as inconsequential - even though it is in my world - foundational. What then follows is a failed attempt at real dialouge, simply because the languages spoken do not mesh. Its a difficult process.

Steven

[SaGa]

same reason why i care about area 51 really having aliens, and quantum physics being true, its just one of those debatable things you can confuse people with.

[Shade Everdark]

Any search for god is futile, as long as we remain human. The nature of what we define as god, compared to the nature of what we define as human, are so vastly different in terms of worldview and capacity for understanding and enlightenment, as to make that chasm of 'knowing god' an insurmountable obstacle. Put simply, I don't care who you are, you don't know god, if god exists. You can't.

At the very least, with a scientific search for the origin of all things, we know where we stand; we know our footing, we don't know all the rules, but we just might be able to learn them all, and we can work from there. Science isn't, as Steven purports, an empty alternative, anymore than a faith in a god is; much like faith in god, it's just incomplete.

[The_Dark]

and lets not forget.. Faith and Science are not mutually exclusive.

[Shade Everdark]

Point well taken.

[Steven]

Actually Shade - I dont think science is an empty alternative per se - I just think that it is the wrong medium to use in pursuit of the divine. And I also have to agree with you in part that the attributes of God if he ixists - a re far beyond our comprehension. I am not a God. I cant relate.

But (heres my contradiction) I also think that you indeed "can" know God in the way that he intends us to at this stage, but the vehicle to begin the process of that discovery are in the biblical texts you dont ascribe to - and so of course it seems like a futile pursuit.

The bible is full of intimate descriptions of God, and full of details regarding how he wants us to pursue him and know him with intimacy. I suppose the best way I can describe the process is like you and I:

You know my name is Steven. You know a few basics about what makes me tick. But to really KNOW me - you'd have to spend intentional concentrated time pursuing a relationship with me. With God (if your a beleiver) that same rule applies. You build that knowledge of the charechtor of God thru studying and discussing biblical text, building community with other beleivers for revelation and insight, risking your comfort level by allowing a certain degree of spiritual vulnerability, through prayer, and through serving and giving. All of thoso things are layed out for us in the biblical text as "what to do" guidelines in how to know God.

It takes a bit of work, and perseverance (sort of like marriage).

But these things will sound worthless to you if the foundation itself has no value.

Steven

[The_Dark]

Science hints at God. Nothing exists, according to physics, unless something observes it. Who observed the Big Bang?

[Steven]

if indeed the big bang happend the way scinetists perceived it did.....

the heavenly host would be your watchers.

[DarkChylde]

uhhhhhhh.....My brain hurts

Cant we just learn these things one at a time and by steps little by little?

Even though I know alot of things that most normal human being wouldnt know but wow lol.