Why dont you care about politics?

[Troy Spiral (13)]

I've often heard people say things like "politics are boring" or "i hate politics" why? What do you hate about this subject? They arent relevant to you? Too complicated?

This is intended as a discussion about what/why do you have negative thoughts about the subject of politics and perhaps tend not to be interested in the subject in general, or not be interested in discussing the subject.

If you ARE interested in the subject, in all its forms , which even for the most devout polticial activist is a rareity, this post may not be relevant to you.

[JaneDead]

i don't think they are boring. i don't hate discussions on it either. i just find myself often to misinformed/uneducated in the matter to form a solid factual "arguement". most of my politcal "thoughts" are just that. my thoughts. based on what little i know, and mostly on what i believe.

[Fierce Critter]

Since your other posts are showing an impatience with sideline thoughts, Troy, maybe you need to clarify this more.

For instance, I could answer the question, "Why don't you like politics period." Or, I could be answering the question, "Why don't you like DISCUSSING politics?"

See what I mean? Don't want to risk derailing your thread, so I'll reserve comment for now.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

Its hard as hell not to divert a topic ;D Especially since there is, as yet, no real definition of what is bad about "derailing a topic" or who decides whats bad, why, how much is ok etc etc. I think many of us have always had this sort of "anti derailment" mentality, i've just been in a somewhat snippy mood the last few days and have tended to be a bit more vocal about it. (something im , as we speak, trying to get a handle on... my irritation level that is)

Ok anyhow i edited the topic post a bit. This thread is meant as a general catch-all for negative thoughts about "the subject of politics" and why some may not care, or just generally have no interest in the subject.

[The_Dark]

Apathy. Apathetic people who bitch when life doesn't go their way.

"I hate that politician."

"Do you vote?"

"No."

"Sod off."

[Fierce Critter]

Alrighty then. Thanks for clearing that up, Troy. :

My reluctance to discuss politics often comes from the same place as Dyno. I don't feel educated enough in current events or politics in general to really support what I believe/feel about a given political aspect of a given discussion. For instance, I really know nothing about international protocol/relations to say whether a unilateral or multilateral approach to the Korean situation would have been better.

There are areas I feel I can discuss when it comes to the way certain politicians handle things that I understand better. Such as gay marriage, the minimum wage, etc. Sometimes I'll venture forth my opinion about things closer to my understanding.

Sometimes I just plain don't FEEL like doing the work of looking up facts to back up my position. When there was a discussion of gay marriage involving the nunmber of voting Christians or something like that, I did extensive research to make sure my points weren't just me talking out my ass. I don't always feel up to that kind of "extra" work involved, in particular, when discussing/debating politics here on DGN.

Which brings me to my final reason I don't like talking politics. Debate. I LOVE talking religion - discussing it - it's one of my favorite topics. WHEN I can discuss it with someone who's agenda isn't to CHANGE me or tell me that what I believe is WRONG as opposed to how THEY think. Unfortunately, that's REALLY hard to find in a political discussion. I think I come into a political discussion with a particularly open mind - if you believe something, tell me why and I'll see whether it can actually fit with my personal beliefs vs. my chosen party. I really don't see much of that going on here on DGN. Mostly it's Mr. Extreme Right debating Ms. Extreme Left, backing themselves up with "facts" from seriously non-objective sources. Often, it degrades into personal attack, and that makes me lose respect for the parties involved.

What's particularly aggravating to me is that VERY frequently, in these debates, if someone brings forth an indisputable, objective point that supports their side of the debate, the other side can't bring themselves to stand up and say, "you know, you're right - I accede that point". No - what usually happens is Mr. Right makes a great, indisputable point and Mr. Wrong just leaves the conversation altogether.

Part of me also doesn't feel like being so moderate anymore. Part of me wants to say, "Screw the other side - I'm going to proclaim myself a screaming, fanatical extremist on one side 'cause I'm sick to death of trying to take the high road when nobody else feels compelled to themselves." Thus, I've been giving politics a pretty decently wide berth as of late.

[Daniel]

I am very interested in politics. I do, however, feel a bit of despair when it comes to "the system". I don't think it is very mutable anymore. I feel, very strongly, that in America, people are too complacent, and too stupid, for effective action.

I am neither left nor right. I generally fall in line with libertarian and anarchist ideals, but still feel government does have rolls it should play. I think government should be a more loose system of regulation, and the only "large" effect it should have is directly benefitting its people. One could argue that is what it does, and my response will simply be that there is way too much of it. I will never agree with a multi-billion dollar war when people are dying in our own country simply because they lack medical insurance.

But, to my original point... I don't believe effectively changing "the system" is possible by the American people. For one, there isn't a common cause you can get enough people to rally behind. You can't find a common cause that will create a solid, effective body of people that are capable of bringing about lasting change. When you see instances of rallied people, all they seem capable of doing is protesting, which ceased being effective in the mid-60's. The major media is too damn large to compete with unless some major, serious ass funding were to become available. I don't mean millions of dollars either. It would take billions to compete with the existing media in the US. Even then, the best you can ever hope for is a level playing field.

What it boils down to is

1) I see a system and government that sucks. It hasn't started sucking with Bush.

2) A population of people divided on stupid issues, and unable to unite behind any one, general standard

3) A population of people who, even if united, are ineffective and incapable of action due to gross underfunding, fueled by misinformation, and too lazy because of the comfortable lives they are living which they do not want to jeapodize.

People constantly want to bait me into political discussions. I bite sometimes, but in the end, I see nothing coming out of it. Even if we came up with some good ideas at the end of the discussion, we lack the power or means to do anything with it.

I know I seem to be "doomsayer" about a lot of things. I know I seem pesimistic, like nothing can come of anything. This is actually untrue. I have a lot of hope and a lot of ideas about how to live, and function in this world to bring about a real, positive difference. I believe in these things because I have done them, and witnessed first hands the predictable and positive results. I just think people need to think smaller, and more immediate. Maybe I will make a thread about that sometime. But, in relation to this thread, and other "big" topic threads... I see no point. Sort of for a lot of the reasons Critter mentions above, but for many other reasons as well. There are simply better things to go after and focus on.

[torn asunder]

"be the change you want to see in the world"

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win."

- Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948)

[Daniel]

I've always hated that Ghandi quote. Civil Disobedience is a fantastic concept, and when employed correctly, can produce fantastic results. You can try to Ghandi method if you are willing to be ridiculed, beaten and still possibly not win. Beatings and humiliation do not necessarily result in victory. In fact, it seems more likely that they will not. You can follow in someone else's footstep and hope what worked for them will work for you, or you can be inventive and come up with your own plan.

[torn asunder]

for me, the key is, if i act the way *i* believe all should, and am true to myself, i win, no matter what others think... the whole "do unto others" bit. ridiculed? humiliated? how can you be either, unless you value others' opinions more than your own? embarrassment comes from your judgement of yourself, based on others' values, what they think of you. accept who you are, and accept that others are entitled to think differently, and embarrassment should disappear. as for coming up with your own plan, i see nothing wrong with incorporating others' examples with your own, as long as it is completely you. seems silly to throw an idea by the wayside, just because someone else already thought of it/did it...

[Daniel]

I have no idea what you are saying to me right now.

If you are following your own path, why are you quoting other people as an example?

[torn asunder]

...i see nothing wrong with incorporating others' examples with your own...

for example, in music, you may include many different aspects of various styles, and yet come up with something that is completely unique to you. does this help?

[Troy Spiral (13)]

I like "the subject" of politics. But, in practice, often it can turn to an angry argument, rather than a discussion, which , often leads nowhere. I like to sort of look for "the truth" over the course of a discussion, but i'd say 90% of the time when i start on a political subject with somone, they aready have sort of entrenched in a certian viewpoint and pull up the drawbridge and pour down the boiling oil lest they be invaded by a forgien concept.

I try to keep the drawbridge (nearly) always open for business. I honestly , activly try to keep an open mind, you'll hear people say they are open minded endlessly, but its fairly rare to actually find somone that is active at it. Its about impossible to be fully unbiased, that only exists in some sort of fairy-land story, but often i think its not even attempted, its just something people say so as to not sound like ogres.

Which tends to lead to heated "fights" rather than discussion, which then can sour me to the act of discussing politics.

[Vater Araignee]

I don't hate all politics just democratic politics.

Wile I thing democracy is the best anh Highest ideal to aspire to.

I understand also that we will eventualy vote ourselves into bankrupcey ( no body ever said you had to know how to spell to right) I see it hpening too much with the defasit gorwing and growing Soc Sec not working medicade benafits getting smaller. It saddens to think that my kids grandkids ect ect will not know How good we have it now and at some time in the distan our great great great whatevers wont even know demoracy.

[Daniel]

I like "the subject" of politics.  But, in practice, often it can turn to an angry argument, rather than a discussion, which , often leads nowhere.  I like to sort of look for "the truth" over the course of a discussion, but i'd say 90% of the time when i start on a political subject with somone, they aready have sort of entrenched in a certian viewpoint and pull up the drawbridge and pour down the boiling oil lest they be invaded by a forigen concept. 

I try to keep the drawbridge (nearly) always open for business.  I honestly , activly try to keep an open mind, you'll hear people say they are open minded endlessly, but its fairly rare to actually find somone that is active at it.  Its about impossible to be fully unbiased, that only exists in some sort of fairy-land story, but often i think its not even attempted, its just something people say so as to not sound like ogres.

Which tends to lead to heated "fights" rather than discussion, which then can sour me to the act of discussing politics.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So, what you are saying is anyone who has a viewpoint they stand by is closed-minded? You believe anyone with an established belief or an opinion is automatically biased? You think someone with replies to your questions/statements has "pulled up the drawbridge"? Please clarify.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

Basicly its all there and you interpritated it correctly, except for the spin that might suggest im saying "you should not take a stand for what you belive in".

That part of it, would be better stated "feel free to take a stand but dont be so rigid in that stand that you no longer seek "the truth"" The idea that "ive thought it all through , and it is not possible that my conclusion could be wrong" is what i belive to be an error that many people may have made.

Also , oddly, i tend to often value kindness and politeness over unvarnished truth which is a bit of a psudo-paradox. :ermm:

[Daniel]

Basicly its all there and you interpritated it correctly, except for the spin that might suggest im saying "you should not take a stand for what you belive in".

That part of it, would be better stated "feel free to take a stand but dont be so rigid in that stand that you no longer seek "the truth""  The idea that "ive thought it all through , and it is not possible that my conclusion could be wrong" is what i belive to be an error that many people may have made.

Also , oddly, i tend to often value kindness and politeness over unvarnished truth which is a bit of a psudo-paradox.  :ermm:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have a major problem with people approaching discussion in the fashion you propose people should. Not that I don't think you can discuss however you want, but your expectations of other people are unfair and misguided. I also think you have a very bent misinterpretation of what it means to be open-minded.

This will sound arrogant and haughty, and that is fine because what I am saying is true and the point doesn't change. But, personally, if I engage in a discussion/debate, I am generally very well informed on the issue, else I wouldn't pose a lot of opposition. In case you can't tell by my low post counts in relation to my board membership longevity (I out date the vast majority of posters here), I am selective in what I post about. Generally, when discussing a topic I have 1) Researched it 2) Given it a huge amount of independent throught and 3) Have likely engaged in similar debates with people just like you in the past. Otherwise, I just read and observer. This becomes more and more true for broad philisophical topics like religion or "where did we come from?", as I have been involved in/witnessed more of these discussions than most people have had hot meals. Having a lot of information doesn't make anyone less open-minded. In fact, my mind is actively seeking NEW information. I look for it and suck it up like a dry sponge. The problem is that very, very often, particularly on boards that do not specialize in topics (i.e., this board. I post on a number of "philosophy" only communities, for example, where forums are broken down by specific branches of thought), I am very rarely introduced to something new from the posters. It does happen, but it is comparitively rare. There are a few people here I can think of that introduce me to new insight regularly, and thankfully, at least one of them generally opposes me. One of them I haven't seen for ages, which is too bad. Your observation that people believe they can't be wrong is probably fallicious. The truth is, they probably aren't willing to concede to elementary replies.

This all means a number of things. For example, I can generally anticipate most replies to any comment I make. Because I often correctly anticipate your reply, I generally have a reply already composed. In fact, my insight on these matters is often enough that I could write a whole mock topic thread on behalf of everyone else for a number of subjects. On this board, I can tell you who is going to have what opinion, how they will say it (content as well as style), who will get mad at what comments, who will stop posting after certain things are brought up, and ultimately, when the thread will get moved to the 'moderators' section. I could conceivably take stands in total opposition to my own view point and help push onward a challenging and interesting conversation thread. Actually, I do this more than people may realize. It is all like a chess game to me. Some people are better players than others. No "bridge is drawn", but if you expect to have an impact and want people to concede to you, make a genuine effort and challenge us with something new. I will shoot down the standard replies, but am very interested in hearing something new and insightful.

Now to me, someone with your view point (that is, people who believe anyone who is certain they have discovered the truth behind a matter is immutable and closed-minded) is just a wheel-spinning conversationalist who is primarily interested in the social value of the topic, vs actually using the conversation to become wiser or more knowledgable. I mean, denying truth for the sake of remaining "open" is a LACK of wisdom (and coinicidentally, truly closed-minded. Not coming to a conclusion when faced with coherent information shows some lacking of assessment). Worrying about kindness/politeness is social concern, where exchanging solid information (unvarnished truth) is more appropriate for a real enlightening conversation. To me, personally, this sort of conversation is 80% to learn, 20% for social value. I try to not project emotion positively or negatively, and just discuss. I suspect the scales are tipped much differently for you. This is all fine, but I find it a bit dubious to even engage in debates when this is the set of priorities and values.

I define an open-minded individual as someone who actually listens to what is said, analyzes it, and makes a judgement regarding the information. That judgement may be disagreement. That person making the judgement may already have a wealth of information on the subject that vastly exceeds your own. One cannot articulate a whole lifetime of knowledge, experiences and perspective in one conversation. It is simply fallicious to assume hearty disagreement is closed-minded. It could be you that is lacking, not the other person.

I define a closed-minded individual as someone who is specifically focused on their own issue. My favorite example of closed-minded vs. open-minded is this:

An open-minded individual assess the facts, situation, etc, and builds a view point from them objectively and fairly. A closed-minded individual holds a view point, and then seeks out supporting facts, information, and perspective to support their view point. I believe any view point can be argued and supported with research, including racism, homophobia, and many other hateful agendas. But when you look at it without bias, you come to a more fair conclusion. Again, it is fallicious to assume someone with a wealth of knowledge, experience and fair conclusions to be closed-minded, but it is fair to say they are difficult to challenge if you have but an elementary knowledge on the topic at hand.

What is sad is that politics, unlike religion or other abstract philisophical topics, can largely be supported with research and objective information. Those conversations should never be taken too personally, but too many people choose to. The hardest thing to teach people is perspective. Information exchange is easy, but to get someone to step inside your world is genuinly difficult. And often, views differ because of perspective, not information.

A good conversation I had with some friends a week or so ago consisted of how to 'affect' people's perspective. Not so much changing them, because that is hard and unfair. But, how do you get people to question their own perspective (note, not necessarily their views), and genuinely try to look outside of themselves? That is tricky, and probably grounds for a different thread entirely.

[Sybil]

Ok anyhow i edited the topic post a bit.  This thread is meant as a general catch-all for negative thoughts about "the subject of politics" and why some may not care, or just generally have no interest in the subject.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

(ahh.. sweet confession time, yet again) :erm

Troy, you already know this fact about me ~ i didnt graduate high school because i refused the 1/2 credit gov't class ~

why? why would a person so adamently refuse a class that is required so they can get a diploma, which is something needed (basically) in the society they live in?

answer::: i thought gov't was boring.. i thought politics were boring.. i knew if i slept in the class i would have to take it over.. the whole deal would have been a waste of time.. and really, i was kinda worried it might end up interesting me quite a bit and i would end up a lawyer or judge or something... hehe..

"rebel WITHOUT a cause"

i was selfish. and self-destructive in tiny ways also.. i didnt want to learn about laws and why they are there (yet i read the bible and there are alot of laws in that book also, but those were more interesting than the gov't related topics i have read since my refusal to take gov't in high school).. i didnt want to hear about all the things that i was doing wrong + all the things going wrong in the world...

"sybil, you were a stiff-necked grrl".

..back then i just didnt want to hear it.. i didnt want to take the time to become educated..

okay. so that was then..

now??

i still know dang-near-nuthin about politics/gov't/laws...

i work so many hours a week that i dont see the news..

i dont vote..

i am still selfish..

BUT..

i do listen to the friends of mine that discuss issues civilly, and i like to listen, but i cant say i "jump" into the conversation.. my involvment is "ears only" most times..

..in most cases i dont know whose side to stand on, so i do what i always do.. i watch. and wait.

i am one of the people known as "worker bees".

i serve the public, i work hard, i do my best (usually), and i encourage the people around me to do the same.

i am politically ignorant.

i dont have a bunch of facts stored in my brain.

so thats basically it.. i dont hate politics NOW.. i did when i was young.

[Guest Game of Chance]

(ahh.. sweet confession time, yet again) :erm

Troy, you already know this fact about me ~ i didnt graduate high school because i refused the 1/2 credit gov't class ~

why?  why would a person so adamently refuse a class that is required so they can get a diploma, which is something needed (basically) in the society they live in?

answer::: i thought gov't was boring.. i thought politics were boring.. i knew if i slept in the class i would have to take it over.. the whole deal would have been a waste of time.. and really, i was kinda worried it might end up interesting me quite a bit and i would end up a lawyer or judge or something... hehe..

"rebel WITHOUT a cause"

i was selfish.  and self-destructive in tiny ways also..  i didnt want to learn about laws and why they are there (yet i read the bible and there are alot of laws in that book also, but those were more interesting than the gov't related topics i have read since my refusal to take gov't in high school)..  i didnt want to hear about all the things that i was doing wrong + all the things going wrong in the world...

"sybil, you were a stiff-necked grrl".

..back then i just didnt want to hear it.. i didnt want to take the time to become educated..

okay.  so that was then..

now??

i still know dang-near-nuthin about politics/gov't/laws...

i work so many hours a week that i dont see the news..

i dont vote..

i am still selfish..

BUT..

i do listen to the friends of mine that discuss issues civilly, and i like to listen, but i cant say i "jump" into the conversation..  my involvment is "ears only" most times..

..in most cases i dont know whose side to stand on, so i do what i always do.. i watch.  and wait. 

i am one of the people known as "worker bees".

i serve the public, i work hard, i do my best (usually), and i encourage the people around me to do the same.

i am politically ignorant.

i dont have a bunch of facts stored in my brain.

so thats basically it.. i dont hate politics NOW.. i did when i was young.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

LOL...what didn't you hate besides vampires and NIN when you were young?

:cheerful

[Sybil]

LOL...what didn't you hate besides vampires and NIN when you were young?

  :cheerful

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

aaahahahahahahahahaa :grin :woot:

STEVE!!!! you speak the truth old, dear friend, and thanks for that statement, cuz i just got the hugest belly laugh at myself!!!!!

:woot: :woot: :woot: :woot: :woot: :woot: :woot: :woot: :woot: :woot: :woot:

[Guest Game of Chance]

aaahahahahahahahahaa :grin  :woot:

STEVE!!!!  you speak the truth old, dear friend, and thanks for that statement, cuz i just got the hugest belly laugh at myself!!!!!

:woot:  :woot:  :woot:  :woot:  :woot:  :woot:  :woot:  :woot:  :woot:  :woot:  :woot:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My work here is done.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

(ahh.. sweet confession time, yet again) :erm

Troy, you already know this fact about me ~ i didn't graduate high school because i refused the 1/2 credit gob's class ~

why?  why would a person so adamently refuse a class that is required so they can get a diploma, which is something needed (basically) in the society they live in?

answer::: i thought gov't was boring.. i thought politics were boring.. i knew if i slept in the class i would have to take it over.. the whole deal would have been a waste of time.. and really, i was kinda worried it might end up interesting me quite a bit and i would end up a lawyer or judge or something... hehe..

"rebel WITHOUT a cause"

i was selfish.  and self-destructive in tiny ways also..  i didnt want to learn about laws and why they are there (yet i read the bible and there are alot of laws in that book also, but those were more interesting than the gov't related topics i have read since my refusal to take gov't in high school)..  i didnt want to hear about all the things that i was doing wrong + all the things going wrong in the world...

"sybil, you were a stiff-necked grrl".

..back then i just didnt want to hear it.. i didnt want to take the time to become educated..

okay.  so that was then..

now??

i still know dang-near-nuthin about politics/gov't/laws...

i work so many hours a week that i dont see the news..

i dont vote..

i am still selfish..

BUT..

i do listen to the friends of mine that discuss issues civilly, and i like to listen, but i cant say i "jump" into the conversation..  my involvment is "ears only" most times..

..in most cases i dont know whose side to stand on, so i do what i always do.. i watch.  and wait. 

i am one of the people known as "worker bees".

i serve the public, i work hard, i do my best (usually), and i encourage the people around me to do the same.

i am politically ignorant.

i dont have a bunch of facts stored in my brain.

so thats basically it.. i dont hate politics NOW.. i did when i was young.

Great post.

Thanks for taking the time to dig this thread out of oblivion. Very honest and clearly stated, nice to read a post like this.

I think politics are "important" but like so many things they just fall by the wayside due to life being the way it is.... and lack of goddamn food! I need to eat!!! This whole dieting thing BLARGH! GIVE ME CHEESE AND FRIED STUFF AND ASSLOADS OF HUMMUS AND ORIENTAL FOOD NOW!!! oh yeah and some fries and mashed potatoes and tons of butter and throw in some of thoes "spcier nahco doritos" and some TACO BELL damnit and... and... er... ok >calms down

Ok so yeah, life is hectic and there's only so many hours in the day, is probably why i dont spend more time on this subject , like the back of my mind tells me i should. (and i have never voted, basically because in the early years i thought it was all just a bunch of crap that i could care less about, and now , more recently its due to laziness and "having better things to do" (more selfishness i guess))

[Paper Hearts]

I have a friend, Milan, from Czech Republic, who once told me "Don't worry about politicions, they'll take care of them selves.". -Not my policy, but a beautiful phrase, i think.

[Hellion]

:devil All I know is that if politics get more corrupt instead of being more truthful; then Democracy will fall apart and you might as well call it Demonocracy.

[Homicidalheathen]

I DO care about politics. Just don't think there is much difference I can make in todays world. The days of 'peaceful protest' seem to be over.

I vote but don't know that it deos much good.....still think it is too easy to rig the polls.