Looks like Bush has won...

[Rose]

This country, if yesterday's vote IS representative of the "true" America and it's basic beliefs, is NOT a loving, welcoming, caring society. And NOT a country I can feel proud about, or even safe in.

Melting pot? More like a pyre where "different" people and people with different views can be burned. Figuratively, and who knows - maybe literally some day if these zealots have their way.

"Land of the Free" - so long as you believe ONLY certain beliefs and act ONLY certain ways.

Gods, it sickens me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

well, if it makes you feel any better, it wasn't all of americans who voted for Bush. it was a very very close race. so only a little more than half of registered participating voters are supportive of this kind of regime.

according to the NY Times, about 114,000,000 people voted. the 2004 population estimate is 293,000,000 - the estimate of the voting-eligible population is 205,000,000. So only a little over half of the voting eligible population voted, and only a little over half of *them* voted for bush.

Yes it was a majority vote but not a majority of our country. Not to say that there aren't a ton of intolerant people out there, but we just have to hang on to the hope that people will become more tolerant with time.

[Fierce Critter]

Actually, Jon found out from someone today that there is a way of making things a little easier.

You can "visit" Canada and meet with/interview with a prospective employer. If they want you, they can "sponsor" your move.

You still have to go through official channels. But if you have a job waiting for you and an employer willing to put in the word, it can make it easier.

[Rose]

it depends though... if Canadian immigration decides that you don't possess a skill that a Canadian has, they can deny you citizenship.

I have a friend who has lived in London ON for over a year, she had a work permit and was job sponsored but after a year her work permit expired and they have not yet renewed it. She is also married to a Canadian citizen.

[Soulrev]

Yeah let's move out of the country because we have to deal with 4 years (yeah, 4, as in, not even 1/16th of a lifetime) of a president we don't like.

So mature.

Have fun with the waiting lists for surgery, and hope you don't like satellite television.

[Soulrev]

Bye-bye politics. Off to try to salvage what's left of my lower, middle-class, non-Christian open-minded life.

Enjoy the new Theocracy. Goodbye democracy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

FC, didn't you hear? There is no more middle class anymore.

[Rose]

Yeah let's move out of the country because we have to deal with 4 years (yeah, 4, as in, not even 1/16th of a lifetime) of a president we don't like.

So mature.

Have fun with the waiting lists for surgery, and hope you don't like satellite television.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

that's a very mature reply, too

not that I am considering moving out of the country, but if I were it would be because Bush is now in a position to make *long term* changes in our country like reversing roe vs. wade, passing a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriages, getting us involved in more wars and bankrupting our government.

there are long term repurcussions to this 4 year term.

[The_Dark]

Some of us feel that if Kerry had been voted in we would have been worse off. Taxes so high we could no longer afford to live without the government careing for our every little need, The Draft, a weaking of our special forces by lowering the critera by which they are chosen, pulling out of Iraq before it's stable, the loss of our 2nd amendment rights, an even less chance of ever being able to retire and attacks on our homeland.

[Soulrev]

that's a very mature reply, too

not that I am considering moving out of the country, but if I were it would be because Bush is now in a position to make *long term* changes in our country like reversing roe vs. wade, passing a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriages, getting us involved in more wars and bankrupting our government.

there are long term repurcussions to this 4 year term.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah and next election when the democrats get their way things will be "fine".

[Rose]

err - ok whatever. If you're not even going to read what I post then there's not much point in me posting. I can talk to myself just fine without typing.

[Fierce Critter]

Hmmm... I'm not reading certain posts by certain persons... but based on something quoted by Rose up there, I think I might bring this to your attention:

From : EZBoard DGN - Politics Forum - Too Danged Close For Comfort

(10/25/04 9:09 pm)

Re: Too Danged Close For Comfort

I'm preparing to move out of the country if Kerry wins.

Form your own conclusions. :whistling:

[Dubh Aingeal]

The Draft, a weaking of our special forces by lowering the critera by which they are chosen

Bush is already planning to bring back the draft... What else can he do since he has so overstretched our military its not funny... Anything happens here and we are left to the national guard. Which means we might as well grab outr own arms and fight or not fight as we don't stand much chance against anyone otherwise...

If Bush is reelected in 2004, we can count on a military draft in 2005.

By Mick Youther

One thing George W. Bush forgot to mention at the Republican National Convention was that, if reelected, he would soon bring back the military draft.

• “The official view from the Pentagon is that all is going well in Iraq and that the US forces are more than ready to continue the global war against terrorism….The reality is that US forces are now severely overstretched and the number of their military commitments worldwide is increasing by the day.”-- Jane's Intelligence Digest, August 2003

• “[VP Cheney] has said the US is considering military or other action against ‘40 to 50 countries’ and warns that the new war may last 50 years or more.”-- John Pilger, Daily Mirror, 1/29/02

• “[…the active Army would be unable to sustain an occupation force of the present size beyond March 2004 if it chose not to keep individual units deployed to Iraq for longer than one year without relief.”-- Douglas Holtz-Eakin, Director of the Congressional Budget Office, quoted on BuzzFlash.com, 12/23/03

• “We've failed to convince our allies to send troops, we've extended deployments so morale is sinking, and the president is saying we can't cut and run. So what's left? …at some point, we're going to need more troops, and at that point the only way to get them will be a return to the draft.”-- Rep. Charles Rangel (D-NY), Salon.com, 11/3/03

• “We're not going to reimplement a draft. There is no need for it at all.”-- Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, 1/7/03 (Translated: “The draft will start right after Bush is reelected.”)

• “Pending legislation in the House and Senate (twin bills S 89 and HR 163) would time the program so the draft could begin at early as Spring 2005 -- conveniently just after the 2004 presidential election!”-- Adam Stutz, Project Censored, 1/28/04

You can tell the Chickenhawks have been working on this for a while. They want to make sure no one can avoid the draft—like they did.

• “A little-noticed provision in a new federal education law requires high schools to provide names, addresses, and phone numbers of students to military recruiters. Schools that refuse to comply face losing federal education funding under the Elementary and Secondary Education Act.”-- Boston Globe, 11/21/02 (Now you know what they mean by “No Child Left Behind”.)

• “If a military draft were to return, it would not be the same as during the Vietnam War. Because of the widespread concern that sons in wealthy and politically connected families can easily avoid the draft, no educational exemptions are expected this time, except to allow the completion of a term or for a senior to complete the year. Because of the extensive completion of extradition treaties, for example, the 2001 Smart Border Declaration, escaping to Canada or Sweden, or about any other country, would not be an option.”-- Carol Van Houten, The Register-Guard, 6/25/04

• “[A bill has been introduced] that would require that all males and females between the ages of 18 and 26 perform two years of ‘service.’ …any draftees that were not needed by the military would be assigned to a civilian job that, ‘as determined by the President, promotes the national defense, including national or community service and homeland security.’”-- Draft Notices, Nov.-Dec., 2003

• “In line with today's needs, the Selective Service System's structure, programs and activities should be re-engineered toward maintaining a national inventory of American men and, for the first time, women, ages 18 through 34, with an added focus on identifying individuals with critical skills.”-- Selective Service System proposal, 2/11/03; quoted in the Seattle Post-Intelligencer, 5/1/04

• “$28 million has been added to the 2004 Selective Service System (SSS) budget to prepare for a military draft that could start as early as June 15, 2005. SSS must report to Bush on March 31, 2005 that the system, which has lain dormant for decades, is ready for activation.”-- Adam Stutz, Project Censored, 1/28/04

So, if you are of draft age or you have children or grandchildren of draft age, or you care about someone of draft age; in other words—everyone—vote for John Kerry and send Bush back to Texas before he can do any more harm. His military misadventures have already caused thousands of deaths and torn apart the lives of tens of thousands of military families.

• “If you have a child who will be fourteen years old in the next few months, they could be on the battlefield before the end of a second Bush term.”-- Charles Cutter, Magic City Morning Star, 7/8//04

pulling out of Iraq before it's stable, the loss of our 2nd amendment rights, an even less chance of ever being able to retire and attacks on our homeland.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We had NO right to be in Iraq in the first place... Daddy could do it the first time so junior had to show he could... And who in the H*LL are we to decide how another country should run themselves, when we can't even take care of ourselves??

[Soulrev]

Ok I'm done. Obviously people here can not determine the difference between using jest and being serious, so, whatever

-=finger=-

[nodrew]

Ok I'm done. Obviously people here can not determine the difference between using jest and being serious, so, whatever

-=finger=-

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What do you expect when you start talking about such a hot topic and people are unable to see how obvious your jest is?

It's just the way of the bulletin board. That and people here are a little bit crazy about certain things. :whistling:

[Soulrev]

The point has to do with the cross references made previously.

As far as not reading posts, quite wrong, in fact. There is nothing one president can do, that another can not undo. Aside, it is pointless to argue over events that have not, and perhaps, may never happen.

As far as a draft, I for one am not afraid of it. I would be among the first group of people to be called to duty. Whether or not the cause is just is up for debate, however I do not feel this war is unjust, and I am fully prepared to be called to arms. I understand others feel differently.

And if this country is "going" anywhere, it's going to socialism. Read up on your history. We're on the same road as those who got the joyous pleasure (jest) of Hitler and Stalin.

[The_Dark]

Dubh,

Thats a fine bunch of qoutes. Too bad it's all speculation. The draft was brought up in the House and Senate, by Democrats. The Republicans killed those bills. The whole issue was a ploy by the Democrats to try to discredit President Bush, it failed.

Censoring out opposing views... How.. yeah... How is this country ever going to heal the division it's suffering from if one side refuses to listen to the other? It's this attitude that is causing the division. Thats really the problem. Everyone is talking, noone is listening. Noone will give one inch to the other side. "Oh, things didn't go the way I wanted, I'll move out of the country." Reminds me of a spoiled little kid throwing a fit because they cant have another piece of candy. A middle ground needs to be found before it's too late.

[torn asunder]

it was accomplished by fear, fear of homosexuals, fear of pagens, fear of what women will do with a choice, fear of "foriegners,"

i'd have to agree with this... this only being my opinion, i'll state it - it seems to me the uber-religious people in this country are the ones promoting mistrust, non-acceptance, and discrimination. ammending any constitution, state or federal, to specifically discriminate against any particular group goes against everything this country was supposedly founded on. (to me) the more time goes by, the more it seems to me that this is the land of intolerance. i voted my heart, and my beliefs, as did everyone else, (hopefully) so i can't argue against it, but it saddens and scares me to think that as a country, we're legislating and promoting hatred and divisiveness, and that the main group of people doing so (again, to my eyes) are the same people who claim to be morally upright, "love thy neighbor" types. i can't stand religion in general, and the idea it promotes that, "i'm right, therefore you're wrong" and that, since it's such a large group, they can legally force me to comply with their beliefs. i give a great big, generalized F-U to close-minded people like that... "let he who is without sin cast the first stone", right? ugh... nevermind...

[Rose]

There is nothing one president can do, that another can not undo.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hmm... I think there is... wait... what is it again? oh yeah. appoint between 1 and 4 ultra-conservative Supreme Court Justices (let's hope those oldies hang on!) who can then serve until they DIE.

:whistling:

[phee]

How is this country ever going to heal the division it's suffering from if one side refuses to listen to the other? It's this attitude that is causing the division. Thats really the problem.

This I agree with entirely, if I beleived that the Right felt this way I think it would be fantastic... but the jist of it seems to be: "How is this country ever going to heal the division it's suffering from if your side refuses to listen to and obey us? It's this attitude that is causing the division. Thats really the problem."

Bush ignored war protests, and the international community, it doesn't sound like he was that concerned with listening to others opinions. Bush lied to his own people and sent friends of mine off to die, without listening.

As far as sounding spoiled about wishing I could move and not being able to well I guess that is your opinion, the way I see it, America is bad for me, America is bad for my daughter (values of bigotry, intolerence, hatred, and self rightousness, sexism etc...) none of this is in anyway Bush's fault to begin with, but he is a catalist for making it much much worse. Kerry MAY have made it worse, Bush has prooved that he WILL make it worse.

Bush is by no means a conservative, Regan was a logical conservative, while I simply disagreed with some of the things he did, I believe that he did have the countries best interest in mind, Bush has the interests of his business, his oligarcy, his ego, and most of all himself at heart, and he has frightened the people of this country into a submissive state where they believe that he is the only force that can keep them from harm, when he himself has been the biggest factor in fanning the flames that made it dangerous in the first place.

And for the record unless I am being attacked personally (Phee your a futhermucker kinda thing) I will not ignore any of you, that is my choice, and I am going to continue to use my choices until the government bans them.

[The_Dark]

I am not sure why it is so hard to believe that people looked at the two choices we were given and decided Bush was the better of the two.

Kerry was too far to the left and far too vague. There were too many questions that he would not answer. As an example, Why wouldn't he releae his FULL military record? Why suppress his records from 1973 - 1978? There is alot of proof that he was disnhonarably discharged. Why not squash those rumors by allowing people to read his record of discharge? He made a big deal about Bush's crappy record while at the same time concealing his, why? There wre far too many things about the man that I disliked. I could not bring myself to vote for him.

I have said it before and I'll say it again. Someone needs to run for the office that people can actually beleive in rather than forcing people to choose who they hate less.

[torn asunder]

the way I see it, America is bad for me, America is bad for my daughter (values of bigotry, intolerence, hatred, and self rightousness, sexism etc...)

phee, this is no reason for you to want to move... i agree that the traits you mentioned are wrong, but for this country to prosper, we need people who think like you & i do, to take the initiative, and teach tolerance and acceptance, and model unity, openness, and friendship to everyone. america needs you (both generally and specifically) to remain, and show others how things should be. there are a lot of great people in this country, and they can make a change. the biggest impact you can have is to show your daughter how to stand up for what you believe in, and not run away when things get difficult. personally, i won't be silenced, or intimidated into submission by people who have any and/or all of the character traits you mentioned. i will live my life my way, and i will be vocal about my beliefs. to quote gandhi, "be the change you want to see in the world."

guess i'll stop now...

[JaneDead]

[JaneDead]

i agree phee and torn. and that is so true - "be the change you want to see in the world." you can't leave phee. we need more phees in the world. or more specifically in the u s of w i mean a.

[torn asunder]

or more specifically in the u s of w i mean a.

:laughing:

[nodrew]

I am not sure why it is so hard to believe that people looked at the two choices we were given and decided Bush was the better of the two.

Kerry was too far to the left and far too vague. There were too many questions that he would not answer. As an example, Why wouldn't he releae his FULL military record? Why suppress his records from 1973 - 1978? There is alot of proof that he was disnhonarably discharged. Why not squash those rumors by allowing people to read his record of discharge? He made a big deal about Bush's crappy record while at the same time concealing his, why? There wre far too many things about the man that I disliked. I could not bring myself to vote for him.

I have said it before and I'll say it again. Someone needs to run for the office that people can actually beleive in rather than forcing people to choose who they hate less.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, I thought Kerry was too far to the right, honestly. Wasn;t about socially liberties enough, imho. Though, that's why I did not want to vote for him.

[phee]

I am liking this thread.