White Pride

[Steven]

let me ask this, if i may... (and i'm sure it will come across as insensitive, but i want to bring it up anyway) have any of these people whose ancestors went thru slavery ever stopped to think that if they hadn't been brought here for that specific reason, they most likely would still be living in a hut in africa somewhere? (it's just an example, lighten up) is anyone thankful that, although their ancestors were forced to go thru that unwillingly, that if they hadn't, their life would be faaar different, and more than likely a lot worse than they have it now? is anyone who cries racism, grateful for the fact that they do now live in america, where they do have the "opportunity" to be whatever they want? which brings me to another thing - opportunity is far different than entitlement, which is an attitude i see far too often...

hell, i just ran out of mental energy to continue this right now. i'm sure i'll be blasted by a few people by the time i get back to this, and maybe then i'll be able to go on... *sigh*

I've spent time in Mexico pondering this very thing over the years.

And no, not pondering on a white sandy beach resort.

I also used to go with a group of friends to stay and work at an orphanage there, because I wanted to give back, but I also wanted to see and feel first hand what other people maybe read about.

And yes, I am very glad, to live here.

[Msterbeau]

let me ask this, if i may... (and i'm sure it will come across as insensitive, but i want to bring it up anyway) have any of these people whose ancestors went thru slavery ever stopped to think that if they hadn't been brought here for that specific reason, they most likely would still be living in a hut in africa somewhere? (it's just an example, lighten up) is anyone thankful that, although their ancestors were forced to go thru that unwillingly, that if they hadn't, their life would be faaar different, and more than likely a lot worse than they have it now? is anyone who cries racism, grateful for the fact that they do now live in america, where they do have the "opportunity" to be whatever they want? which brings me to another thing - opportunity is far different than entitlement, which is an attitude i see far too often...

hell, i just ran out of mental energy to continue this right now. i'm sure i'll be blasted by a few people by the time i get back to this, and maybe then i'll be able to go on... *sigh*

A valid question. Something else to consider: They could be in a tribe that's perfectly content with a simple, primitive life, even in this day and age. Odds are that wouldn't be the case though. Also. Does a better life now justify the treatment people went through? The ancestors may say yes but they're not the people who suffered directly as slaves.

I dunno.. It's a very difficult subject to talk about in absolutes. Erin's most recent posts make good points... things I've thought about since. It's basically down to: let's set the ideal now and start working towards it, whether or not we've reasonably addressed past injustices VS. Continuing on a path of providing a form of restitution for these past injustices while working towards the ideal.

[Homicidalheathen]

I bet none of you heard of this, because it was not on the news. A couple weeks ago my friends ex boyfriends sister (14) ran away from home. She is black. They live in Hamtramck.

She was walking down the street when 4 imigrant Haitians picked her up. They took her to a house and raped her.

She pointed out the house to police who then secured the block and arrested them.

It was not in the news, even though the whole block was sealed off for over an hour.

However, some white rich kid was raped 5 states away and THAT got in the news. Nationally.

She was a yr younger than the girl my freind knows.....just one year.

So I think its more about race, and how much money you have.....what neighborhood you live in.

[the eternal]

TOP 3 REASONS WHY I WILL NEVER HAVE WHITE PRIDE

3.

2.

1.

[BrassFusion]

A valid question. Something else to consider: They could be in a tribe that's perfectly content with a simple, primitive life, even in this day and age. Odds are that wouldn't be the case though. Also. Does a better life now justify the treatment people went through? The ancestors may say yes but they're not the people who suffered directly as slaves.

I dunno.. It's a very difficult subject to talk about in absolutes. Erin's most recent posts make good points... things I've thought about since. It's basically down to: let's set the ideal now and start working towards it, whether or not we've reasonably addressed past injustices VS. Continuing on a path of providing a form of restitution for these past injustices while working towards the ideal.

My opinion on racism could very well be my most controversial because it goes against the grain of party politics, but I'm glad I can kinda defend it reasonably...

But yeah, that's exactly it. The way I see, those are our options (set the ideal and move on, or continued restitution), and evening it up now seems more logical from a scientific standpoint.

Race relations in America has been an ongoing experiment with no control, that is. I think a great control would be encouraging (and legally enforcing, if necessary, vis prop 2) the treatment of people based not on the color of their skin, but by the content of their character. In absolutely every imaginable situation.

Anything else, to me, is racial prejudice.

(my grammar got so scrambly in there... sorry, i just woke up, and got a call for a job interview that i applied for yesterday, so i'm stupid and excited)

[Steven]

congragulations and goood luck on your job interview...

...moving on:

some practical ideas then, on how specifically and Erin or a Marc, or a Steven or a Joe Schmoe can indeed set the ideal so that it begins to take on a lfie of its own, so that the ideal itself does not just exist as an ideal.....

beyond Politics please. Thse thgnis are important tools but I'm still of the beleif that politics simply reflect the values of a society, they do not shape them, so we have to first start at point A, which is: (insert answer here)

which is exhibited in behaviours such as, um, I wake up in the morning, have breakfast, openthe front door to begin my day and consequently I: (insert answer here)

[BrassFusion]

Good morning, Steven, and may I be the first to say...

"WTF?"

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

We are exactly on the same page BF. As long as we keep pointing out our differences as negatives and making reperations for crimes long past.. we are never going to get on with equality. People need to stop focusing on our differences like they are bad things and start to focus on what we have in common and how those differences can be (I hate this next word) exploited to the betterment of the human race. We, each of us, have something different to bring to the table. The only valid place where "race" should come up is medicine... as there are variuos medical conditions that seem to afflict people of certain ethnic backgrounds (sickle cell anemia comes to mind). On everything else, from scholarships, grants, jobs and government assistance, Ethnic background/race/color of a persons skin should never come up. What real bearing does it have?

eternal... we could post links to pictures of people from every ethnicity along those same lines... individuals are just that, individuals and are not in anyway representative of the "race" they just happen to share some genetics with.

[torn asunder]

Good morning, Steven, and may I be the first to say...

"WTF?"

i think he's asking for practical-application examples on how to employ your suggestions...

forgive me if i speak out-of-turn, steven...

[torn asunder]

People need to stop focusing on our differences like they are bad things and start to focus on what we have in common and how those differences can be (I hate this next word) exploited to the betterment of the human race.

might i suggest utilized, rather than exploited? =)

[Steven]

i think he's asking for practical-application examples on how to employ your suggestions...

forgive me if i speak out-of-turn, steven...

You got it Mike, you understood exactly what I was getting at.

And if I sounded flippant Erin I did not mean to be at all, I really was asking for practical applications because I learn this way, and I think we all leaarn this way when we are forced to dig a little deeper.....

[Steven]

We are exactly on the same page BF. As long as we keep pointing out our differences as negatives and making reperations for crimes long past.. we are never going to get on with equality. People need to stop focusing on our differences like they are bad things and start to focus on what we have in common and how those differences can be (I hate this next word) exploited to the betterment of the human race. We, each of us, have something different to bring to the table. The only valid place where "race" should come up is medicine... as there are variuos medical conditions that seem to afflict people of certain ethnic backgrounds (sickle cell anemia comes to mind). On everything else, from scholarships, grants, jobs and government assistance, Ethnic background/race/color of a persons skin should never come up. What real bearing does it have?

eternal... we could post links to pictures of people from every ethnicity along those same lines... individuals are just that, individuals and are not in anyway representative of the "race" they just happen to share some genetics with.

OK in theory I understand what your saying here, but it just seems a bit thin to me.....it's idealistic without any meat and potatoes structure or risk, and perhaps that structure does not even exist, I dont know.

But to just move along, get over it, find our commonaliites.......I do not find healing in this, I do not find a mechanism that promotes trust and intimacy.....I dont know, to me it smacks (sort of) of somethign like telling a manically depressed person to just "cheer up". Wonderful theory, and absolutely logical, but can you make it stick? Will it really work? Did you really change anything besides your own perception of your allotted burdon to bear?

I feel as if by and large, we as humans love our little boxes, and we find others like us who also love our little boxes and then we just congregate inside of them and click off. We all KNOW we have many thigns in common, but by and large I feel as if we do not DESIRE, and therefore pursue relationship. Of course there are exceptions and I'm painting with broad brushstrokes here. But everythign were discussing in terms of solutions....I've heard my whole life. And others heard it before me.

[BrassFusion]

speak for yourself, steven!

I don't think you're giving yourself or anyone else enough credit.

call me crazy, but if most people start treating bigots like we assume they AREN'T bigots (i.e., trusting them, giving them credit to form wise opinions), they'll gradually come around, generation by generation.

most open racism is already regarded with shock and disgust (as well it should be), so let's stop programming the "good" kind of racism into our laws...

[Steven]

speak for yourself, steven!

I don't think you're giving yourself or anyone else enough credit.

call me crazy, but if most people start treating bigots like we assume they AREN'T bigots (i.e., trusting them, giving them credit to form wise opinions), they'll gradually come around, generation by generation.

most open racism is already regarded with shock and disgust (as well it should be), so let's stop programming the "good" kind of racism into our laws...

go to bed Brass, its 2:00 am (sheesh)

ok, your still missing my point, and maybe that's my fault....

I basically agree that most "open" racism as we know it, is treated with PC shock and disgust...I'll accept that to a degree.....but then again your speaking (I assume) in terms of what you've expereinced or what is accepted as your basic american suburbia.

But there are still HUGE open elements of racism all around, say in places like, Harlan County Kentucky, where to this day they still have monuments like "Nigger Head Rock" (yes I have been there...think "deliverence") or even places like Jacksonville Florida, now that's suburbia, and I have friends there who's parents still use the word Nigger and would disown their kids for even thinking about dating a black person. Or let's see...you've got it right here in Howell MI, generational racism and KKK influences. Or....my own Sister in law in Livonia (lovely house, lovely woman, well thougth of in church) has called me a fucking mexican to my face. She and her sons have an inside joke reference to me, they call me "Juan", now where do you think those kid's learned that little witticism?? My point is that It's still here Brass, all over the place. It just hides itself better in today's PC society.

But more important - are the undertones of racism. Those uncomfortable moments of blissful ignorance that maybe get squelched in an open forum, yet never really get resolved. That too, without address....continues to manifest in subtle ways and breeds further distrust. It's my beleif that there is a big difference between potentially blessing or welcoming the alleged bigot in hopes of a change, versus personal accountability - saying to your peer group (and children)...this was me, this is my struggle, and I AM WRONG, and my father and mother taught it to me, and they were WRONG.

When Laura was a teen in Garden City (long before me) she grew up with the word nigger. She used it freely, as did her friends. She didnt hate black people, but she didint have black friends either, no reason, other than it never crossed her mind as a plausible path to pursue....why would she? Black people belonged in Inkster and Detroit, not Garden City....

I watched her many years later - in tears and in front of our peer group, apologize to my friend Brian, who is black and married to a white woman. Did Laura own him an appolgy? no, not directly. But she wanted to take responsibility for past errors in judgement and for not questioning what she was taught and for basically, wounding others. Brian was never a part of that - but he received her apology as a sort of "stand in", for what he has experienced at the hands of others and he belssed her and told her not to worry about it anymore. I watched those two, do something togethor that was both symbolic and healing for the both of them, and for our group of friends as well....

As for speaking for myself, again you missed my point but thats ok.

I have done for many years, the exact opposite of what I was trying to exemplify as a lack of personal investment and I think (hope) you can trust that about me.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

OK... kids glove off...

Thats reads as ... "Blah blah blah.. woe is me, I'm a porr represed miniroty... you should give my people reperations for the next 50 or 60 years to pay for injustices to people I have never met who happen to have the same skin color as me.. while your at it.. pay off everyone else who has had family members represed becaue of thier skin color."

Fuck that. Get over it. Really. I'm not repressing you nor is anyone else. If someone does.. take it up with them... not me or anyone else just because we have the same skin color as the person that Repressed you. I DIDN"T DO IT. I am not paying for some other bastards crime against you. Stop focusing on the past and the smaller and smaller minority that still thinks hate is cool.

[Steven]

OK... kids glove off...

Thats reads as ... "Blah blah blah.. woe is me, I'm a porr represed miniroty... you should give my people reperations for the next 50 or 60 years to pay for injustices to people I have never met who happen to have the same skin color as me.. while your at it.. pay off everyone else who has had family members represed becaue of thier skin color."

Fuck that. Get over it. Really. I'm not repressing you nor is anyone else. If someone does.. take it up with them... not me or anyone else just because we have the same skin color as the person that Repressed you. I DIDN"T DO IT. I am not paying for some other bastards crime against you. Stop focusing on the past and the smaller and smaller minority that still thinks hate is cool.

Reference points please, cause you lost me on this one. seriously.

[torn asunder]

Reference points please, cause you lost me on this one. seriously.

me too, gaf - to whom are you addressing this post? (although in principle, i do agree with it to some extent)

[BrassFusion]

mark is right... he said basically what i was going to but in a slightly different way...

steven, you can bitch all day long about people who are racist and call you nasty words, but there isn't anything you can DO about it. it is their freedom to believe that latinos and blacks are worthless mud people, and I assure you that no amount of government grants and advancement programs for minorities are going to change their minds.

only death will, but that's the lucky part. PEOPLE DIE. some of their kids will have picked up their stupidity, sure, but what with the internet and television and (god help us) MTV, fewer of those racist asshole kids will survive to every generation.

that's what is happening already. it would happen FASTER if the liberal pussies in our government weren't sponsoring hypocritical racist policies.

oh, and a post-script... i agree that racism won't disappear within any of our lifetimes, so i assume the position you support (steven) is for the benefit of future generations. any future generations from this point who aren't provided for well enough to get through high school and get a decent job are the responsibility of their slacker parents and a broken welfare system, REGARDLESS OF THEIR SKIN COLOR.

and i'll be goddamned if i'm paying tax dollars to give any guy of any color a "leg up" so he can eventually buy his wife a new lexus instead of a honda. not while i'm living at home driving a beater jetta.

damn, now I remember something I was going to say earlier.

I don't care about people who insult other people for being black or mexican or japanese or what the fuck ever. people insult me for being fat and I don't fucking need money for it.

[Steven]

steven, you can bitch all day long about people who are racist and call you nasty words, but there isn't anything you can DO about it. it is their freedom to believe that latinos and blacks are worthless mud people, and I assure you that no amount of government grants and advancement programs for minorities are going to change their minds.

only death will, but that's the lucky part. PEOPLE DIE. some of their kids will have picked up their stupidity, sure, but what with the internet and television and (god help us) MTV, fewer of those racist asshole kids will survive to every generation.

and i'll be goddamned if i'm paying tax dollars to give any guy of any color a "leg up" so he can eventually buy his wife a new lexus instead of a honda. not while i'm living at home driving a beater jetta.

damn, now I remember something I was going to say earlier.

I don't care about people who insult other people for being black or mexican or japanese or what the fuck ever. people insult me for being fat and I don't fucking need money for it.

Calm down, calm down white woman!

K - first of all I'm not bitching, I'm simply saying that it's out there loud and proud and continues to rear its head.

And next - if your trusting pop culture to mend the fences....good luck to ya, it does not run deep enough, nor does it really challenge us to challenge ourselves (except for the non smoking TRUTH ads).

And I dont really think you were referring to me when you made that comment abotu government grants et al, because I have never once argued for these sorts of things, in fact I am not a beleiver in the machine being able to change society's values - so I am in agreement with you here Erin. But I'm a wee bit confused, because I've been talking about personal involvement all along and your countering me by arguing against government provisions that I've never asked for and so......

By the way I also beleive that as long as we love to cling to our trends of placing blame for our individual whoas, you will have the roots of racism lingering around. We often hate because we like to identify our tormentors as opposed to dealing with our own sitches. And we do not teach the art of DEALING anymore to our children - and think that could prove to be a powerful counter force to your generational watering down of racism theory.

And of course you can DO something about it.

You challenge the stereotype by self improvement and by connecting. I dont want to be rescued Brass, I dont need it. I simply want to be different than the stereotypical notion of what I'm "supposed" to be.

And finnally, you got a Jetta?

I got a ford aspire. If I was white I'd have me a Jetta......

[torn asunder]

And finnally, you got a Jetta?

I got a ford aspire. If I was white I'd have me a Jetta......

:woot:

[BrassFusion]

Calm down, calm down white woman!

K - first of all I'm not bitching, I'm simply saying that it's out there loud and proud and continues to rear its head.

And next - if your trusting pop culture to mend the fences....good luck to ya, it does not run deep enough, nor does it really challenge us to challenge ourselves (except for the non smoking TRUTH ads).

And I dont really think you were referring to me when you made that comment abotu government grants et al, because I have never once argued for these sorts of things, in fact I am not a beleiver in the machine being able to change society's values - so I am in agreement with you here Erin. But I'm a wee bit confused, because I've been talking about personal involvement all along and your countering me by arguing against government provisions that I've never asked for and so......

By the way I also beleive that as long as we love to cling to our trends of placing blame for our individual whoas, you will have the roots of racism lingering around. We often hate because we like to identify our tormentors as opposed to dealing with our own sitches. And we do not teach the art of DEALING anymore to our children - and think that could prove to be a powerful counter force to your generational watering down of racism theory.

And of course you can DO something about it.

You challenge the stereotype by self improvement and by connecting. I dont want to be rescued Brass, I dont need it. I simply want to be different than the stereotypical notion of what I'm "supposed" to be.

And finnally, you got a Jetta?

I got a ford aspire. If I was white I'd have me a Jetta......

dude, most of what you were doing seemed to be bitching. say what you will about providing "references" and stuff. all you gave us were stories about racist assholes. yeah, we know it's out there, but what do you propose to DO about it? i actually have a plan, and it seemed like you were arguing against it.

and even if you turn white, NEVER get a jetta. at least not an early model. they suck.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

My post was to Steven.. because, as enlightned as he is.. he is just doing what everyone else does.. bitch. Bitch and moan.. because that fixes everything.

You want racism to stop... stop telling me your a mexican and how proud you are of being one.

I'm Greek and German with a smidge of Irish... I know this information because it helps me understand how I came to be... it has no bearing on what I do on a day to day basis. None.

You focus on being different.. people will notice your different. Throw your latino pride in our face some more. Just dont be surprised when someone describes you as "that mexican guy" rather than.. that dude that sings for that band we saw last friday.

There is no need to focus on our linage... it doesn;t really matter on a day to day basis.

Like I said before... stop pointing out how different we all are and start talking about what we have in common.

[torn asunder]

Like I said before... stop pointing out how different we all are and start talking about what we have in common.

to this end, i have (as of a few years ago) started calling myself a "bastard american", because 1) i'm a mix of a whole bunch of shit, and 2) who cares what i am, really!? and 3) "Once you label me you negate me"

- Soren Kierkegaard

[BrassFusion]

My post was to Steven.. because, as enlightned as he is.. he is just doing what everyone else does.. bitch. Bitch and moan.. because that fixes everything.

You want racism to stop... stop telling me your a mexican and how proud you are of being one.

I'm Greek and German with a smidge of Irish... I know this information because it helps me understand how I came to be... it has no bearing on what I do on a day to day basis. None.

You focus on being different.. people will notice your different. Throw your latino pride in our face some more. Just dont be surprised when someone describes you as "that mexican guy" rather than.. that dude that sings for that band we saw last friday.

There is no need to focus on our linage... it doesn;t really matter on a day to day basis.

Like I said before... stop pointing out how different we all are and start talking about what we have in common.

actually i gotta disagree with where this is going now. steven has the right to be proud of his cultural heritage just as you and i do ours (we're both german, apparently, and TELL ME you've never gone to oktoberfest =D).

i DO think of steven as "that mexican guy" when he talks about being mexican, but it doesn't color my opinion of him...

someone can be black without being a "nigger," or a mexican without being a "beaner." the trouble comes with stereotyping...

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Well.. to be honest.. no, I have never been to an oktoberfest... I've been to the Blues festival on the river and the Jazz Festival in Idlewild... but I go for the music...

There is a different between having pride and throwing things in peoples faces. We all know Steven is mexican and pomba is black and that I am white. Why does it need to be thrown into anyone's face? Why do i have to pay the price for other peoples sins?

Look.. I'm the guy who talked to Steven about the fact that I have issues with Mexicans. I do everything I can to overcome those issues and never let them come out openly. I suppress them.. invalidate them internally... which gets really damn hard when Steven throws his mexican heritage into a conversation where really.. it has no bearing. I never feel the need to point out how white I am.. why does anyone else have to point out how brown they are?