Ninja or Samurai?

[Goth Brooks]

Damn I wish I could be a ninja, ninja

Damn I wish I could be a ninja, ninja

Damn I wish I could be a ninja, ninja

Damn It'd feel good ta see people applaudin'

Note, the ninja is winning.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

*cough*

What's the first line in that song?

[detroitrequiem]

True many ninja were in fact samurai. I think it really depends on the skill level of the individual. Ninja were also following the codes of bushido as well though most people see the 80's ninja boom stereotypes. We do study swordsmanship like the samurai. Many of us take it very seriously as well. Ninjutsu is very diversified in terms of combat training. We have at least 9 different schools of thought in terms of physical (taijutsu) and mental training (Zen, Kuji, etc). We also do not compete in sports due to the joint locks, grappling, and potentital bone breaking techniques. I saw my teacher's wife, Rumiko Hayes, take down around 10 guys with naginata (kinda like a spear) in less than 30 seconds. The ninja these days promote a lot of the bushido ways in terms of honor, respect, discipline, etc. Basic taijutsu is taught first and then on to weapons training. I love sword training. The kids we teach think its the coolest thing too. We have these action flex swords that we use with the kids for safety purposes of course. I tell you though, I've had a real sword blade, sharpened, at my throat before. It's a creepy experience. If any of you are ever interested in talking or training in regards to ninjutsu, let me know. I will have my black belt this February. I plan on continuing at least through my fifth dan (fifth degree). Sorry to babble but I love the art and enjoying sharing the art with others.

Shikinharamitzu Daikomyo

"In every moment of your life lies the potential for the enlightenment you seek"

[Guest Game of Chance]

The portal to a friend of mine's site...dedicated to ninjas

http://www.myspace.com/ninja80

[Onyx]

I have a natural talent for sneaking up quietly and surprising people. I don't usually even consciously do it. An ex boyfriend once called me a red-headed ninja. (I swear I didn't hurt him, hehe. Just kept sneaking up and accidentally startling him).

Seems to me the element of surprise could give quite an advantage to the ninja.

[Scary Guy]

Ninja, cause they do whatever it takes to survive and win. Cheaters always win IRL.

[paradox]

i cant believe you people! who the helll would vote fer dirty, low-down cheatin ninjas! <_<

samurai are teh shit!

[Vater Araignee]

*cough*

What's the first line in that song?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Exactly so to use math

Ninja = more successful Samurai

or

Ninja > Samurai

===============================

Has any body considered the Ninjato?

Compared to the Katana ?

Ninjato is straight It is a stabbing weapon.

Katana is curved it is a slashing.

Ninjato is extremely flexible when compared to the Katana.

Ninjato is longer than the Katana.

I could get into more but lets explore what we have.

The Ninjato is designed to

1. Keep its wielder outside of the Katana's attack range

2. Recover if struck broad by the heavier Katana.

3. Take advantage of weak points in armor.

Now a Samurai is going to try to get the Ninja within his attack range and the ninja is going to try to stay out of it.

Keep in mind the Ninja know very well the range of the katana. Why? Because the Ninja is a Samurai equipped to kill Samurai.

The Ninjato is thin and flexible so as to quickly recover from broad strikes and parries.

The Ninjato because it is a distance weapon is only sharpened at the tip and rather than relying on force to penetrate armor it seeks to slip into the chinks.

The Ninjato was simply and specifically created to take on a Katana.

Who better to dispatch that pesky Samurai? That Samurai with even more training called the Ninja.

[Vater Araignee]

Oops I forgot

Ninjutsu - The traditional Japanese method of espionage; involves stealthy movements and the use of camouflage. Presently in the 34th generation, this school of Ninjutsu is the only authentic tradition which has survived the more than 900 hundred years since it's beginnings in feudal Japan through an unbroken chain of Grand Masters. It's Martial roots, however, extend through history to the cradle of modern civilization, China.

[Vater Araignee]

I just read this on http://www.close-combat-video.com/oldss.html

All factors being equal, the fight usually goes to the bigger, faster and stronger. Most popular methods of martial arts rely too much on these physical factors. You are taught to use your power to create an opportunity or wait for your opponent to make a mistake. When you're not the bigger dog in the fight, you lack the power to force a technique and your energy is getting drained every moment you are waiting for an opportunity. You need to use deception, skill and downright ruthlessness to survive. You want to apply your strongest attack to his weakest target and create openings for escape. How long do you think a 100 pound woman will last in the grasp of a 220 pound man? She won't have time to wait for her opening. She will have to create her opening by being as sneaky and nasty as possible as fast as possible. And if it can work for a smaller person, just imagine what it will do for a larger person.

More points for that sneaky ninja.

[detroitrequiem]

And as the samurai steps in for the cut the ninja flings a metsubushi (usually an egg mixed with blinding powders, pepper, nasty stuff, sealed with candlewax at the samurai. The samurai blinded is distracted for a moment. This is all the time the ninja needs to stealthly come around first with a musha dori, dislocating the shoulder. Next, the ninja puts the samurai in a blood choke. As the samurai feels his trachea being slowly crushed he feels the slicing of his throat from the ninja's blade. The samurai hears nothing as he collapses to the ground in death. The invisible warrior dissappears into the shadows.

Ninja wins

The ninja for hundreds of years have been redefining their martial arts skills to embody all forms in both weapons and taijutsu skills. Policemen, Navy Seals, FBI, Swat teams, etc have come to my teachers for training. Anshu Hayes is even the personal body guard to the Dali Lama of Tibet. The modern Ninja under Grandmaster Masaki Hatsumi the 34th grandmaster are some of the best martial artists in the world. We were training the other day and my teacher asked us why we're here to train. He then told us that he was there for the day he dies. Perserverance, to be the best you can be until the day you die, being a black belt in every aspect of your life, that's a ninja my friends!

[Rayne]

Ninja, for sure. They are sneakier. :fear :fear

[Daevion]

Ninja ftw!!!!! all those samurai will get thier throats slit in thier sleep :fear

[Shade Everdark]

Exactly so to use math

Ninja = more successful Samurai

or

Ninja > Samurai

===============================

Has any body considered the Ninjato?

Compared to the Katana ?

Ninjato is straight It is a stabbing weapon.

Katana is curved it is a slashing.

Ninjato is extremely flexible when compared to the Katana.

Ninjato is longer than the Katana.

I could get into more but lets explore what we have.

The Ninjato is designed to

1. Keep its wielder outside of the Katana's attack range

2. Recover if struck broad by the heavier Katana.

3. Take advantage of weak points in armor.

Now a Samurai is going to try to get the Ninja within his attack range and the ninja is going to try to stay out of it.

Keep in mind the Ninja know very well the range of the katana. Why? Because the Ninja is a Samurai equipped to kill Samurai.

The Ninjato is thin and flexible so as to quickly recover from broad strikes and parries.

The Ninjato because it is a distance weapon is only sharpened at the tip and rather than relying on force to penetrate armor it seeks to slip into the chinks.

The Ninjato was simply and specifically created to take on a Katana.

Who better to dispatch that pesky Samurai? That Samurai with even more training called the Ninja.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sigh. Ninja were not better or more highly trained samurai, they were merely trained in different arts. Samurai were trained for the battlefield; ninja were trained for covert ops. Each employs a different set of skills, useful in entirely different situations.

As has been too oft repeated in this thread, the victor in this fictitious contest depends entirely upon the circumstances around which they engage. Assuming two people of roughly equivalent training and skill, if the ninja gets found out (and YES it does happen), then the likelihood is that he dies. If he manages to remain undetected, chances are he wins. That's really what it boils down to. I realize that this thread is meant to be for purposes of humor, but come on.

[Vater Araignee]

Sigh.  Ninja were not better or more highly trained samurai, they were merely trained in different arts.  Samurai were trained for the battlefield; ninja were trained for covert ops.  Each employs a different set of skills, useful in entirely different situations. 

As has been too oft repeated in this thread, the victor in this fictitious contest depends entirely upon the circumstances around which they engage.  Assuming two people of roughly equivalent training and skill, if the ninja gets found out (and YES it does happen), then the likelihood is that he dies.  If he manages to remain undetected, chances are he wins.  That's really what it boils down to.  I realize that this thread is meant to be for purposes of humor, but come on.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But you are ignoring one simple fact.

Most ninja where Samurai.

Granted there was a good percent that where not but most where.

Now if you want to pit the modern Ninja against the modern Samurai ( or their equivalents ) then good old sneaky Ninj is still going to win if Sam detects him first.

Why?

Sam aint going to ambush Ninj and Sam wants a fair fight.

Ninj just wants Sam dead so he shoots Sam.

[detroitrequiem]

I wouldnt say that most ninja were Samurai. Most of the Ninja were simple farmers defending their villages like the Iga and Koga NInja from Japanese overlords like the Shogun. However, many Ninja did disguise themselves like the Samurai or a gardener, etc for intelligence gathering, assassination, and so forth. The primary reason the Ninja were wiped out in the past was two reasons: First they were greatly outnumbered by the samurai, 2nd was because eventually with Bushido, there was no need for war as a unified Japan. The Ninja were no longer needed by the various political factions to carry out their dirty deeds. They simply slipped off into the shadows according to Dr. Hatsumi and Stephen Hayes. Samurai also had a strict form of combat rules when challenging opponents. Ninjas didnt need to follow the same rules which gave them an advantage. Ninja were also trained for battlefiled as well as covert operations. They used cannons, explosives, a variety of traps, long and short blades, concealment, etc. The samurai in battle were a closely nit group like the early Romans which didnt offer them a lot of flexibility or options.. If a samurai gets that first cut in he may stand a chance. Its wits against muscle usually. The ninja will always win because they have more flexibility, wits, and choices in combat. Most samurai followed a crooked politician anyways. This elite group killed many innocent villagers which is why the Ninja began to take shape. There is no honor there for samurai. Most people believe that what the samurai did was noble. Many Samurai didnt follow the codes they professed.

Samurai pulls out blade to strike. Ninja up in the trees blows a poison dart into his neck. Staggering back, the samurai tries to recoup. Ninja swings sword down upon his enemy yelling "yosh!"

Ninja wins once again

[detroitrequiem]

I wouldnt say that most ninja were Samurai. Most of the Ninja were simple farmers defending their villages like the Iga and Koga NInja from Japanese overlords like the Shogun. However, many Ninja did disguise themselves like the Samurai or a gardener, etc for intelligence gathering, assassination, and so forth. The primary reason the Ninja were wiped out in the past was two reasons: First they were greatly outnumbered by the samurai, 2nd was because eventually with Bushido, there was no need for war as a unified Japan. The Ninja were no longer needed by the various political factions to carry out their dirty deeds. They simply slipped off into the shadows according to Dr. Hatsumi and Stephen Hayes. Samurai also had a strict form of combat rules when challenging opponents. Ninjas didnt need to follow the same rules which gave them an advantage. Ninja were also trained for battlefiled as well as covert operations. They used cannons, explosives, a variety of traps, long and short blades, concealment, etc. The samurai in battle were a closely nit group like the early Romans which didnt offer them a lot of flexibility or options.. If a samurai gets that first cut in he may stand a chance. Its wits against muscle usually. The ninja will always win because they have more flexibility, wits, and choices in combat. Most samurai followed a crooked politician anyways. This elite group killed many innocent villagers which is why the Ninja began to take shape. There is no honor there for samurai. Most people believe that what the samurai did was noble. Many Samurai didnt follow the codes they professed.

Samurai pulls out blade to strike. Ninja up in the trees blows a poison dart into his neck. Staggering back, the samurai tries to recoup. Ninja swings sword down upon his enemy yelling "yosh!"

Ninja wins once again

[detroitrequiem]

I wouldnt say that most ninja were Samurai. Most of the Ninja were simple farmers defending their villages like the Iga and Koga NInja from Japanese overlords like the Shogun. However, many Ninja did disguise themselves like the Samurai or a gardener, etc for intelligence gathering, assassination, and so forth. The primary reason the Ninja were wiped out in the past was two reasons: First they were greatly outnumbered by the samurai, 2nd was because eventually with Bushido, there was no need for war as a unified Japan. The Ninja were no longer needed by the various political factions to carry out their dirty deeds. They simply slipped off into the shadows according to Dr. Hatsumi and Stephen Hayes. Samurai also had a strict form of combat rules when challenging opponents. Ninjas didnt need to follow the same rules which gave them an advantage. Ninja were also trained for battlefiled as well as covert operations. They used cannons, explosives, a variety of traps, long and short blades, concealment, etc. The samurai in battle were a closely nit group like the early Romans which didnt offer them a lot of flexibility or options.. If a samurai gets that first cut in he may stand a chance. Its wits against muscle usually. The ninja will always win because they have more flexibility, wits, and choices in combat. Most samurai followed a crooked politician anyways. This elite group killed many innocent villagers which is why the Ninja began to take shape. There is no honor there for samurai. Most people believe that what the samurai did was noble. Many Samurai didnt follow the codes they professed.

Samurai pulls out blade to strike. Ninja up in the trees blows a poison dart into his neck. Staggering back, the samurai tries to recoup. Ninja swings sword down upon his enemy yelling "yosh!"

Ninja wins once again

[Shade Everdark]

Now if you want to pit the modern Ninja against the modern Samurai ( or their equivalents ) then good old sneaky Ninj is still going to win if Sam detects him first.

Why?

Sam aint going to ambush Ninj and Sam wants a fair fight.

Ninj just wants Sam dead so he shoots Sam.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ninja and samurai don't have modern equivalents. Same way that knights-errant don't have modern equivalents. The world has moved on.

I wouldnt say that most ninja were Samurai. Most of the Ninja were simple farmers defending their villages like the Iga and Koga NInja from Japanese overlords like the Shogun. However, many Ninja did disguise  themselves like the Samurai or a gardener, etc for intelligence gathering, assassination, and so forth. The primary reason the Ninja were wiped out in the past was two reasons: First they were greatly outnumbered by the samurai, 2nd was because eventually with Bushido, there was no need for war as a unified Japan. The Ninja were no longer needed by the various political factions to carry out their dirty deeds. They simply slipped off into the shadows according to Dr. Hatsumi and Stephen Hayes. Samurai also had a strict form of combat rules when challenging opponents. Ninjas didnt need to follow the same rules which gave them an advantage. Ninja were also trained for battlefiled as well as covert operations. They used cannons, explosives, a variety of traps, long and short blades, concealment, etc. The samurai in battle were a closely nit group like the early Romans which didnt offer them a lot of flexibility or options.. If a samurai gets that first cut in he may stand a chance. Its wits against muscle usually. The ninja will always win because they have more flexibility, wits, and choices in combat. Most samurai followed a crooked politician anyways. This elite group killed many innocent villagers which is why the Ninja began to take shape. There is no honor there for samurai. Most people believe that what the samurai did was noble. Many Samurai didnt follow the codes they professed.

Samurai pulls out blade to strike. Ninja up in the trees blows a poison dart into his neck. Staggering back, the samurai tries to recoup. Ninja swings sword down upon his enemy yelling "yosh!"

Ninja wins once again

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Many were, according to modern scholarship. Were they going to advertise the fact that they were samurai, and ninja, together? Of course not, it would mean instant seppuku for them, since they'd have been seen to go against their code of bushido.

Speaking of which, saying that many samurai, especially during the Tokugawa Bakufu, didn't strictly adhere to bushido should come as a suprise to no one here. But as long as you have people, you'll have that kind of behavior. Was it any different among the knights of Europe? Of course not. That still has no bearing on whether or not a samurai would stand up to a ninja in a fight. You people seem to cling to this idea that the ninja were these nigh-unbeatable supermen. They weren't. They were trained assassins, which means they were trained, first and foremost, to do what they did without detection. If they were spotted, they were dead, one way or another.

[detroitrequiem]

Of course the Ninja were not invincible. My point is the ninja had more flexibility than the samurai which is why they would generally win in a combat situation. And the world may have moved on but there are still many ninja out there today that practice the same skills and even more. Ninjutsu has simply adapted to modern combat situations over the years. This is why the FBI, Navy Seals, Special Forces groups, police, etc have hired professional ninja teachers, many I know personally, to train them for modern warefare as well as traditional warefare. Ninja were not just assassins. Thats a mistranslated stigma from the 80's ninja boom. Many began as simple farmers trying to protect their families from oppression. There's an excellant resource by Stephen Turnbull I believe that talks about the historical ninja. Be careful what you read out there regarding the history and people who claim they're real ninjas. People like Ashida Kim should be avoided. There is a lot more to the art that people never see. In a way, they were kinda like the under dogs of their time. The samurai came in and killed many of their families so naturally they retaliated. The samurai were good swordsman and that was pretty much it. And not all the samurai would've commited seppuku either. Im merely pointing out the hypocracy in the samurai traditions like many other forms. The ninja have shortcomings too, they're not perfect, no one is. In most cases though the ninja would

"probably" win because of the flexibility they have in combat. The ninja have taken a lot from many martial arts out there including Kung Fu, Kendo, Brazilian Jujitsu, Karate, etc. The ninja also have what they call elemental responses to each technique they use. For example, a simple defensive block from an incoming punch has infinite ways of being executed. The elements of earth, water, fire, wind, and the void that embodies these elements shows very different responses to the same kind of attack. Check out books by Hatsumi, Hayes, Daniel, etc for good reading.

Ninja wins simply because of diversity of techniques, flexibility, etc.

Samurai were limited with what they could do and not do. Some Samurai wouldnt even fight you because of your lower social standing. I respect the code from the Hagakure and Bushido philosophies, but I wouldnt limit myself to them in a fighting siituation. Kill or be killed right?

Ninja wins

[Shade Everdark]

If you've sources on this extensive knowledge of ninja you seem to have, I'd love to see it. In four years of studying Japanese history (it was more generalized, I grant, but still) at university and another year living in Japan, I've come across none of this.

[detroitrequiem]

I doubt most japanese books are going to talk in that much detail about ninjutsu anyways. However, I have several books by Hatsumi, Hayes, etc that talk about the history of the ninja and what they're really about. You're welcome to get together with me at anytime and peruse them if you'd like. I'm no expert mind you Hatsumi is regarded all over the world as the 34th grandmaster of Ninjutsu. I even have a excellant documentary that shows the densho scrolls from his teacher Takamatsu Sensei the 33rd grandmaster. This art was passed down through the years from this lineage. The ninja museum in Japan will also verify the factual information regarding the ninja. Whatever I can do to help, let me know

robert

[Aleister1]

I'd hafta say ninja just because.