What Is It To Be A Man Or A Woman?

[sass_in_the_pants]

As Onyx said, there was very interesting discussion in Klaus' thread.

To expand on what people were talking about in that thread, what IS it to be a man or a woman? What is it in actuality and what SHOULD it be?

(Sorry if this sounds like I'm running you all through psych 101...but I'm very curious about all of this)

People talk about gender roles...but do you think there is anything INHERENT in being a man or a woman?

It's late, I'm sleepy, so I'm going to bed right now, but I look forward to hearing what people have to say about this.

[BrassFusion]

What makes a man? What makes a woman? Body parts and hormones- and in some cases, those aren't even distinct. The biggest part of gender identity is what you tell yourself you ought to be. We have pop culture to thank for most of those flawed preconceptions.

[phee]

What makes a man? What makes a woman? Body parts and hormones- and in some cases, those aren't even distinct. The biggest part of gender identity is what you tell yourself you ought to be. We have pop culture to thank for most of those flawed preconceptions.

I agree

[Steven]

What makes a man? What makes a woman? Body parts and hormones- and in some cases, those aren't even distinct. The biggest part of gender identity is what you tell yourself you ought to be. We have pop culture to thank for most of those flawed preconceptions.

how bout you list some of Pop Culture's flawed preconceptions.

seriously, I'd like to know what messages your receiving.

[phee]

From Wikipedia:

Gender stereotypes

The Mars symbol is the symbol of Men and of Mars.

The Mars symbol is the symbol of Men and of Mars.

Enormous debate in Western societies has focused on perceived social, intellectual, or emotional differences between men and women. These differences are very difficult to quantify for both scientific and political reasons. Below are a few stereotypical claims sometimes made about men in relation to women:

* More aggressive than women. However, in interpersonal relationships, most research has found that men and women are equally aggressive. Men do tend to be more aggressive outside of the home.

* More courageous and adventuresome than women.

* More competitive but also more stubborn than women.

* More self-confident (even proud) and exhibit better leadership skills than women.

* More self-controlled and less emotional.

* More spacially intelligent than than women, but less empathetic.

* More prone to abstract thinking than women.

Some of these differences have been supported by scientific research; others have not. For example, in interpersonal relationships, most research has found that men and women are equally aggressive.[citation needed] Men do tend to be more aggressive outside of the home.[citation needed] It is especially difficult and contentious for science to separate the "innate" or biological differences from the learned or social differences. All should be considered broad generalizations; that is, at least a large minority of either gender would fit better with the other gender in any one of these aspects.

A number of the above stereotypes were not perceived in the same way as today (i.e., their applications to particular aspects and spheres of life, such as work vs. home) until the 19th century, beginning with industrialization.

In terms of outward appearance, few men in Western cultures wear cosmetics or clothing generally associated with female gender roles. (Doing so is generally stigmatized and viewed as cross-dressing.)

It is claimed men on average have a higher IQ [1]than women of around five points.

[phee]

And another more "primary source" example from here

So whats the whole deal with macho, being a man, being tough, no pain no gain, and big boys don't cry! Hmmm quite a mouthful and a modern day woman's nightmare. These days, I hear, its important to be in touch with your sensitive side, your feelings, and my favourite.. Its OK to cry!

Naaah, not a Chinese chance at a 4 inch ball hair in my opinion! No don't get me wrong, all you lovely ladies out there that I love and respect.

Yes those things are important, but being a man, the big tough macho dude that could wear some cowboy chaff protectors and spurs, walk spread-eagle like he's been riding all day on an angry rhino or because has a set of balls as large as watermelons (ready to be passionately deflated on you... Oh baby, oh baby), must come first. Sure a little listen time is critical, sure a cuddle here or there is great, just mind the poeff line. Our goddesses, the ones we love and worship, can always push you towards the poeff line. Push, push push, and if you don't catch yourself, re asses and beat your chest a bit, or figuratively let forth with a large paleolithic, Cro-magnon screech..Then, Oops, shit, next thing you know you're a fucking poeff and now you have no self esteem, no mates, nothing, you're just a poeff!

[phee]

A good example is something that I hear on a regular basis is something like: "Be a man and take care of business" or "C'mon time to stand up for yourself and be a man"

[Blackmail]

many gender roles are naturally defined and existed before pop culture.

[phee]

many gender roles are naturally defined and existed before pop culture.

And many aren't

[Blackmail]

And many aren't

yeah, that's why I didn't say "all", I said many. Regardless, gender confusion is a real issue, not something made up by society.

[kellygrrrrrl]

I think gender roles are importatnt to set a foundation or a model for society.

I elaborate when I think about it a little more.....but this is my overall feeling put very simple.

[Blackmail]

I think gender roles are importatnt to set a foundation or a model for society.

I elaborate when I think about it a little more.....but this is my overall feeling put very simple.

You are correct.

[BrassFusion]

Gender roles in humans were defined naturally when they were necessary. They're no longer necessary, but they're nevertheless perpetuated by pop culture.

Kelly, I don't care WHAT you do with your life, but if I want to be a... pirate, I guess... would you have a problem with that? It's historically a male-dominated profession.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Biologically male and female are pretty straight forward. What goes on in any givern person's head on the otherhand... Well, biology is part of it but social factors and how a person is raised play a rather large role in the identity part.

There are cases where biology gets confused.. and it's neither wholly female or wholly male... but baby's are born with birthdefects all the time. I know thats not PC to say... but it's the truth. I know some people argue that there is a "third sex" in humans. No, there are birthdefects that garble shit up.

I've always known I was male. I would hate to be one of those people who are confused as to what that is or is not.

[Steven]

You are correct.

and you likewise are correct.

waiting now on Pop Culture's insight into the female role as well.

then, Lunch. then later today I'll tell ya what I think...

[phee]

and you likewise are correct.

waiting now on Pop Culture's insight into the female role as well.

then, Lunch. then later today I'll tell ya what I think...

Please see my previous posts in this thread.... thanks

[kellygrrrrrl]

Gender roles in humans were defined naturally when they were necessary. They're no longer necessary, but they're nevertheless perpetuated by pop culture.

Kelly, I don't care WHAT you do with your life, but if I want to be a... pirate, I guess... would you have a problem with that? It's historically a male-dominated profession.

All I see is Chaos.

Because of this.....

People are stait up CONFUSED.....is this not true? In the basic aspect.

Brass, you can be a pirate all you want.....I don't mind.....

=)

But, you might come off as being a manly kind of "women", which I think most "men" would be turned off or intimidated..... or maybe not?

This kind where women think: I can do what you can do only better.

Boys don't belong in girlscouts, and vs versa.

I don't girls should be allowed to be on the boys football team.

Women want to have all of thier rights and have the men still open the door for them.

You can't have both....

[Steven]

Please see my previous posts in this thread.... thanks

seen it.

this is a great thread by the way. it reeks of conviction.

[Steven]

All I see is Chaos.

Because of this.....

People are stait up CONFUSED.....is this not true? In the basic aspect.

Brass, you can be a pirate all you want.....I don't mind.....

=)

But, you might come off as being a manly kind of "women", which I think most "men" would be turned off or intimidated..... or maybe not?

This kind where women think: I can do what you can do only better.

Boys don't belong in girlscouts, and vs versa.

I don't girls should be allowed to be on the boys football team.

Women want to have all of thier rights and have the men still open the door for them.

You can't have both....

she's one of my favorites Kelly is......

[phee]

Pop culture reference from this site

Gender and TV Production

Television still perpetuates traditional gender stereotypes because it reflects dominant social values. In reflecting them TV also reinforces them, presenting them as 'natural'. As one might expect in a society still dominated by men, men dominate TV production and, influenced by these stereotypes, unconsciously reproduce a traditional 'masculine' perspective, perpetuating dominant gender stereotypes. Many narratives on TV are still implicitly designed to be interpreted from a masculine perspective. Viewers are frequently invited to identify with male characters and to objectify females. This has been called 'the male gaze'. This mode of viewing is called 'unmarked': it is an invisible and largely unquestioned bias - the masculine perspective is the 'norm'.

Girls learn from most TV that it is a man's world, and learn to displace their own perspective. In recent years there has at least been a notable increase in the number of women news presenters. Formerly, TV directors (largely male, of course) had argued that women were less likely to be taken seriously by viewers. However, one could perhaps argue that physical attractiveness may play more part in their selection than for their male counterparts.

There is in fact some evidence that girls (aged 8-12) may tend to find a male newsreader more believable than a woman newsreader, whereas the newsreader's sex does not seem to influence boys' ideas of their believability. Girls may grow used to being presented with the male on TV in general as more powerful and knowledgeable (see Durkin: 94).

[kellygrrrrrl]

she's one of my favorites Kelly is......

I'm couting on you for some back up here bro!

Cause I know you and me are on the same boat on this subby.

[phee]

More from the same site:

The male gaze

I have referred already to the overwhelming use of males for voice-overs. Visuals are similarly given an invisible masculine frame...

Erving Goffman (1979) found that in media advertisements 'men tend to be located higher than women' and 'women are pictured on floors and bedas more than men'. He noted that 'lowering oneself physically in some form or other of prostration' is 'a classic stereotype of deference'. It effectively presents women as inferior to men.

On TV, men tend to be shown in clseface shots whereas women tend to be seen in full body shots. This has been called 'face-ism'. The face is generally seen as representing intellect and the body as emotion in western cultural mythologies.

[Steven]

by the way Phee I keep forgetting to ask you where this information comes from.

to me its sort of dry and technical, not erroneous neccesarily, just.....formulaic.

I say this because comments were made about pop culture molding our ideals, so I'm searching for the wow factor, because we love wow in America, we live for wow, wow is our religion.

since being popular and popularity in general is such a short lived fleeting thign, I tend to look at Pop Culture as the more commercialized easily recognizable and trendy things we feed our youth...

MTV

news Headlines

fashion advertisements

AOR Radio

People magazine

national Enquirer

the happy pill of the month

etc etc etc. those are the vehicles I'd like to take a look at in viewing how we model female and male behaviour.

and Kelly Im proud of you

[BrassFusion]

All I see is Chaos.

Because of this.....

People are stait up CONFUSED.....is this not true? In the basic aspect.

Brass, you can be a pirate all you want.....I don't mind.....

=)

But, you might come off as being a manly kind of "women", which I think most "men" would be turned off or intimidated..... or maybe not?

This kind where women think: I can do what you can do only better.

Boys don't belong in girlscouts, and vs versa.

I don't girls should be allowed to be on the boys football team.

Women want to have all of thier rights and have the men still open the door for them.

You can't have both....

First, why should I care if some men are intimidated by how I choose to present myself? I'm only interested in the ones who love me for my strengths. To anyone else, I'd feel like an accessory- that's the anathema to sexual equality.

Second: I don't think I'm better than men. I'm equal to men. I open the doors, too. Almost anyone from this board I've socialized with could attest to that. Fuck, it's possible I opened one of the doors for YOU at the red apple that one time...

[phee]

On all of the above cases I provided links to where the info came from