What Is It To Be A Man Or A Woman?

[Steven]

On all of the above cases I provided links to where the info came from

that means I have to point and click and I'm getting a finger cramp.

[kellygrrrrrl]

I'm not saying you should care if a man is intimidated by you.

And sure they should love you for your strenghts.

Maybe you did open that door for me? but I think that was just being kind and courteous...thanks!

All Im saying is that the standards of being a "man" are pretty high..esp when the women are already at that standard.

Whats left after that?

I think I can speak for "some men" when I say, most men don't want to have to live with such a challenge.

Men hate challenge from other men...

I am not saying that women cannot do what men do.

Shit....I am an insurance Sales "WOMAN" WHOA.....

I know.

[Steven]

First, why should I care if some men are intimidated by how I choose to present myself? I'm only interested in the ones who love me for my strengths. To anyone else, I'd feel like an accessory- that's the anathema to sexual equality.

Second: I don't think I'm better than men. I'm equal to men. I open the doors, too. Almost anyone from this board I've socialized with could attest to that. Fuck, it's possible I opened one of the doors for YOU at the red apple that one time...

ok I see the merit in this statement babe but I still think that ultimately, we all care. its just in us. those we tend to value or are drawn to we likewise hope will feel the same way. So balance is needed.

and of course your equal to men, I dont think Kelly is stating otherwise at all. But bear in mind that certain men of potential who do appreciate you and do not feel superior to you will indeed be put off by you if you tend to communicate "I am woman hear me roar..." (do you know that Helen Reddy song by the way or did I just quote somethign wayyyyyyyyy out of touch???)

I personally dont dig man haters (not calling you that Erin) because to lump me in with other penis bearing meatheads by association is a shallow and fruitless endeavour because I am so fucking cool.

[Brenda Starrr]

Here's my warm and fuzzy take on this:

As long as my man loves me, treats me with respect, cares about my feelings, needs, and desires, listens and HEARS what I'm saying, and is good to my kids, he's a REAL man to me.

And now, back to your regularly scheduled debate.

[phee]

Here's my warm and fuzzy take on this:

As long as my man loves me, treats me with respect, cares about my feelings, needs, and desires, listens and HEARS what I'm saying, and is good to my kids, he's a REAL man to me.

And now, back to your regularly scheduled debate.

But I feel the same way about my woman.... so does that make her a real man?

The point being... why does that have to be a REAL man.... why can't it be a REAL human or REAL person? why does the above description have to be male specific?

[Brenda Starrr]

But I feel the same way about my woman.... so does that make her a real man?

The point being... why does that have to be a REAL man.... why can't it be a REAL human or REAL person? why does the above description have to be male specific?

Agreed.

[Steven]

Here's my warm and fuzzy take on this:

As long as my man loves me, treats me with respect, cares about my feelings, needs, and desires, listens and HEARS what I'm saying, and is good to my kids, he's a REAL man to me.

And now, back to your regularly scheduled debate.

and here you go Bren - you just laid out some very strong yet rapidly extinct social traits.....

things like depth, charactor, commitment, flexibility, selflessness, etc etc etc.

how long did it take you to find this man Brenda?

some time...?

How long did it take Rayne to find the Mighty Phee?

some time.....?

and again I say all the men in thisroom who's fathers took the time to model and instill these above mentioned things within you please stand up:

(me neither)

I have not been making an argument about these thigns being exclusively male, although it seems like I have.

But I have said, that as males, I see this lack and see it growing. I do beleive that. And not only do I wish we valued these thigns more, as males, i wish we MODELLED these things more.

this thing we desire in our men (and women) is grown up selfless behaviour.

you get that shit down and you get to be called a "man".

but if you dont have that shit down I'll call you a boy. And no woman wants a boy in her bed. you can find that species of idiot in any bar in town and in aisle 9 of farmer jacks.

[torn asunder]

And not only do I wish we valued these thigns more, as males, i wish we MODELLED these things more.

be the change you want to see in the world - mahatma gandhi

i'm in... you, steven!?

[BrassFusion]

I'm going to try to communicate myself clearly on this, because it's very important and I love both of you.

[...]bear in mind that certain men of potential who do appreciate you and do not feel superior to you will indeed be put off by you if you tend to communicate "I am woman hear me roar..." [...]

I've been fighting gender stereotypes under the banner of equality, and to you, that makes me a radical feminist.

If it wasn't obvious already, I am NOT proud to be a woman. Neither am I ashamed of it. My gender does not limit me, nor does it afford me an advantage.

All Im saying is that the standards of being a "man" are pretty high..esp when the women are already at that standard.

Whats left after that?

Our culture impresses upon us the misconception that men are flawed and need to live up to a higher standard that women have already met. That's simply not true. Positive generalizations are still generalizations and to say that women are more emotionally mature than men is an insult to men worldwide. It doesn't matter if men fill up our jails, or that only the boys of the Islam faith grow up to be suicide bombers.

That evidence is symptomatic of a sexist world. It is in our power to change that only if we dispense with the flawed preconceptions. I've said this before about race. It all still applies.

[Steven]

i'm in... you, steven!?

I am I do I did I shall

[Steven]

I'm going to try to communicate myself clearly on this, because it's very important and I love both of you.

You are both very dependent on gender roles. Not only is this useless in modern society, it's harmful. For example:

I've been fighting gender stereotypes under the banner of equality, and to you, that makes me a radical feminist.

If it wasn't obvious already, I am NOT proud to be a woman. Neither am I ashamed of it. My gender does not limit me, nor does it afford me an advantage.

Our culture impresses upon us the misconception that men are flawed and need to live up to a higher standard that women have already met. From what Steven says, he believes this, too. It's wrong. Positive generalizations are still generalizations and to say that women are more emotionally mature than men is an insult to men worldwide. It doesn't matter if men fill up our jails, or that only the boys of the Islam faith grow up to be suicide bombers.

That evidence is symptomatic of a sexist world. It is in our power to change that only if we dispense with the flawed preconceptions. I've said this before about race. It all still applies.

ummm....not exactly, but your warm.

i shall have to give this some more thought over mongolian barbecue tonight in hopes that i can clarify (by the way you never commented on Helen Reddy).

my "passions" regarding the male species my friend, are rooted in the fact that I am a male.

I'm not "proud" to be a male if (if is the key workd here and notice that I'm asking and not telling you how you feel) that is what you think. But I AM a male, and I therefore want to be a good one.

which incidently also equates to being a good human being for those of you who are salivating.

but I beleive there is merit to roles within society, yes I do. and as passionately as you may disagree with me Erin, I test my own bullshit constantly and truly beleive what I beleive and what I beleive and how I beleive is part of what you like about me. I think. maybe. your call really.

As for the men I may insult worldwide:

first - I say what i beleive and am not a PC kind of man, and to be honest some men do indeed get pissed off at me. Most of those men are faltering quite a bit in their own personal lives and relationships. AH yes that was a broad brushtrke I jsut used...you tend to do that a bit at my age. I dont care who I piss off in man-land. I DO hope however, that some of those I pissed off may become challenged enough to consider my audacity at insisting that they are capapble of more and should raise their personal standards and quit being such pussies. But trust me Erin, I've been doing this sort of thing alot longer than you have been protesting it. I'll take my lumps because I walk what i talk.

[glc]

If you want to take all this back to the beginning, the most basic level in looking at gender roles, take our humanity and conciousness out of the equation and look at our physicality and instincts, it's pretty clear what our gender roles are. It's only now that the dangers of being a human living in the wild are, for the most part, gone, and have been replaced with a somewhat civilized society where we don't need to rely as much on our instincts to survive. So now we are trying to define ourselves in an age where our bodies are in conflict with our environment. We have had bestowed upon us the ability to think, which is ironnic, in that the mechanism for our advancement, will ultimately be the tool of our destruction. If we were just like any other animal our roles wouldn't be under discussion, they'd just be accepted, and we'd live in harmony with our environment, and all these social issues that plague our existence would be irrelivant.

[BrassFusion]

i caught the helen reddy thing, steven, and i wholly disagree. i prefer, "i am Erin, hear me roar..."

Age is a sorry excuse for generalizing! everybody does it, of course... NO one is PC in their very soul: that's what PC was invented for. To piss everyone off only a little bit.

the thing i'm going for here is that we have to at least try to stop generalizing for the sake of equal treatment in society. like someone who hates mexicans looking at himself in the mirror and saying, "Hey. It's wrong that I hate Mexicans just because of stereotypes. No matter HOW many Mexicans seem to fit those stereotypes, it doesn't do any good to apply it to an entire group of people. It is, however, really really funny if a Mexican person dons a sombrero and takes a nap under a cactus clutching an empty bottle of tequila, and that's ok. But that doesn't mean that Steven does that, because he's Mexican!"

****

greg: put on your goggles, I'm about to get super deep here.

You've heard the saying, "It's better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all?" I submit that it's better to live a life of pizazz that ends under a mushroom cloud than the life of a squirrel. Any day.

'Sides, every species dies eventually. We're just gonna do it in style.

[BrassFusion]

I just thought of something compelling. I've heard the word "feminist" thousands of times, but I've never heard the word "masculinist." What does that say?

Edit: Sorry. I guess the term would be "masculist."

[glc]

greg: put on your goggles, I'm about to get super deep here.

You've heard the saying, "It's better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all?" I submit that it's better to live a life of pizazz that ends under a mushroom cloud than the life of a squirrel. Any day.

I agree, totally, but only because I can think. But if you never had the capacity to think, you wouldn't know what you were missing!

"ignorance is bliss"!

[BrassFusion]

i wouldn't know

[Steven]

i caught the helen reddy thing, steven, and i wholly disagree. i prefer, "i am Erin, hear me roar..."

Age is a sorry excuse for generalizing! everybody does it, of course... NO one is PC in their very soul: that's what PC was invented for. To piss everyone off only a little bit.

the thing i'm going for here is that we have to at least try to stop generalizing for the sake of equal treatment in society. like someone who hates mexicans looking at himself in the mirror and saying, "Hey. It's wrong that I hate Mexicans just because of stereotypes. No matter HOW many Mexicans seem to fit those stereotypes, it doesn't do any good to apply it to an entire group of people. It is, however, really really funny if a Mexican person dons a sombrero and takes a nap under a cactus clutching an empty bottle of tequila, and that's ok. But that doesn't mean that Steven does that, because he's Mexican!"

****

yes but you see Erin I have not been arguing against your points here. not at all.

I am not nor have I ever asked for INequality or seperation by way of gender. I am not trying to say that only men are to uphold a standard and that it does not apply to women, and I dont own a sombrero.

somehwre in here you had stated that I ws dependent on gender roles. Dependent is a pretty strong word. Here's what I'm truly dependent on:

oxygen

guiness

brays

God

When I talk about role related responsibilites i am talking about supporting a common vehicle. For example one of the reasons why my Boss and I do not function as well as we should is because he likes to pridefully horde information and keep it in his head yet leaves me to oversee everything. That's a failed system. Yes he is the boss in terms of title and role, but a responsible leader knows how to communicate and delegate. I handle 99.9% of all verbal and written communication with customers and staff because quite simply I'm much better at it than he is. But - he is better than I am at problem solving in the field and visualizing the scope of a project from top to bottom in detail. We've both worked the field, we've both paid our dues for years, but in some areas I have the edge and in some areas he has the edge. So we assume our roles for the common good of the business. We should be doing much better to be frank with you but we've got some problems that are rooted individually.

OK, same thing with relationships.

Laura and I are equals. we are btoh accountable to one another. we have a common goal or standard that we BOTH understand deeply and are subject to - the standard itself is definately NOT gender mandated. But - we have distinct roles that come naturally to us that fall withn the standard. Some of those roles, we BOTH beleive, are bi-products of our gender. Laura is a thousand times more organized than I am, and i try, but I suck. I have far more resiliency and durability that she does, and she tries hard, but its just not her natural gift. She handles the majority of our finanical duties, but I am by far the primary breadwinner and I make the final decisions on big purchases, mortgages, relocations, etc etc etc. She trust me in that, it allows her to relax. I trust her to handle the day to day, it allows me to re-charge my batteries. We both have common firends and connections and spend tremendous amounts of shared time in that, and yet we also both have "our own thing" that we do. Even our spiritual identities vary a bit. I am much more of a risk taker than Laura is, and yet Laura is much more diligent in studying and research than I am. There is mutual respect between the two of us in that regard, it provedes balance.

Here is somethign I learned and embraced a very long time ago by the way - in terms of a biblical standard on equality between men and women: Eve, to Adam, was described as his "help meet" in Hebrew. One translation that I love for "help Meet" is "to surround". To me, that speaks of a protective hedge, and a fortifying of the center. For me to be at my best, as a Steven, and as a man, I need her strength and commitment surrounding me - that is my safe zone. Now I know there are all kinds of other biblical passages that seem to demeen (sp?) the role of women in society, but I'd suggest that those things were not intended in the beginning, they developed over time.

and I beleive that if men considered that sort of interplay, they might learn something. Women too.

[sass_in_the_pants]

I want to say something about 'roles' for a moment here. I think everyone adopts whatever role is necessary at any given time. Single mothers take on the role of fathers every day. I am not a runner. If chased by a pack of wolves, quite suddenly, I take on the role of a runner. At work, I am usually the leader on projects. I don't like it. I don't want it. But, for that project, for that moment, I am the best candidate to get the job done, so I step up.

But, this ability to shift roles, I think it's a wonderful sign of our adaptibility as humans, but I don't think it means that all people have the same roles. Do women have to have the same roles as a man to be his equal? No, and as a matter of fact, I resent the suggestion. Why should I have to do the same things a man does to be considered his equal? I was BORN his equal.

And I don't think equality means sameness, either. I do not have to be LIKE you to be EQUAL to you. I am the equal of Mahatma Gahndi. I am the equal of the meth-addicted homeless men I serve sandwiches to. I am nothing like any of them, but they are my equals.

[Steven]

I want to say something about 'roles' for a moment here. I think everyone adopts whatever role is necessary at any given time. Single mothers take on the role of fathers every day. I am not a runner. If chased by a pack of wolves, quite suddenly, I take on the role of a runner. At work, I am usually the leader on projects. I don't like it. I don't want it. But, for that project, for that moment, I am the best candidate to get the job done, so I step up.

But, this ability to shift roles, I think it's a wonderful sign of our adaptibility as humans, but I don't think it means that all people have the same roles. Do women have to have the same roles as a man to be his equal? No, and as a matter of fact, I resent the suggestion. Why should I have to do the same things a man does to be considered his equal? I was BORN his equal.

And I don't think equality means sameness, either. I do not have to be LIKE you to be EQUAL to you. I am the equal of Mahatma Gahndi. I am the equal of the meth-addicted homeless men I serve sandwiches to. I am nothing like any of them, but they are my equals.

good post. very good.

[Blackmail]

There are differences between men and women, there are differences in our genes. While I can appreciate people complaining about real sexism, here people have made false claims of sexism in the past, like accusing a bisexual of being sexist since she liked different physical features on a man than a woman. Obviously men and women use different public restrooms, why is no one picketing outside city hall for that form of sexism?

[phee]

There are differences between men and women, there are differences in our genes. While I can appreciate people complaining about real sexism, here people have made false claims of sexism in the past, like accusing a bisexual of being sexist since she liked different physical features on a man than a woman. Obviously men and women use different public restrooms, why is no one picketing outside city hall for that form of sexism?

True... but more and more are going unisex lately

[Homicidalheathen]

What is it to be a woman? To me it means the gift of creation. If your a guy, you can just walk away. I think its harder for a woman. After carrying those things around in you for 9 months it is hard to walk away. I know some moms do, but I never could. I am all pro choice, just not for me. I could never even bring myself to get an abortion.

And its about true femininity.......I am no dyke thats for sure. I am as petite, girly and feminine as they come. There is NO WAY I could pull off the drag king bit. No one would buy it.

And I like my guys masculine.....able to protect me and carry me up the stairs if they had to.

[BrassFusion]

Steven, it's wonderful that you have such a healthy relationship... I hope to find a man like Laura someday so he can complete me in the same ways Laura has completed you.

HH- Size and clothes don't make you feminine. Motherhood does, and that's about the only thing that does.

[Steven]

Steven, it's wonderful that you have such a healthy relationship... I hope to find a man like Laura someday so he can complete me in the same ways Laura has completed you.

HH- Size and clothes don't make you feminine. Motherhood does, and that's about the only thing that does.

but see now your going to have to define "Feminine".....

oh, and PS - our relationship did not does not come by way of Osmosis or survival of teh species.....we actually work for it's success.

[BrassFusion]

Feminine and masculine are pretty useless labels. All they serve is to devalue women and men who aren't "womanly" or "manly" enough. Their exact meanings are derived from antiquated social castes and perpetuated through pop culture as evidenced by Phee earlier.