What Is It To Be A Man Or A Woman?

[Fierce Critter]

Jon and I share a similar relationship construct as Steven & Laura.

Our roles are only defined as by who is better at something than the other.

Often, the roles in our relationship are different than society would dictate. Some would say I wear the pants in the house. I make major decisions, I manage the finances, etc.

Some would call Jon pussy whipped. We know the truth.

Fact is, I was brought up in a cultured home where things like finances, organization, common practices were actively taught to us.

Jon was mostly fending for himself his entire life. He was, in essence, neglected. While I was fostered.

I just plain have been taught certain things that he wasn't. So I do those things.

But we also teach each other. I'm happier when I can leave some decision making to Jon. I wouldn't tolerate a "Promise Keepers" type relationship - I believe they stress men making ALL the decisions in the family. Yuck. But I know I'm happier when I can let go of the wheel and let Jon take over sometimes. I can, as Steven described, relax.

Fact is, I can barely lift 25 lbs without hurting myself. Jon can lift 300 lb doors on his own. I can make Jello that's not crunchy. Jon can change the oil in our truck - damned if I even care to learn. I can maintain a house that's organized and easy to live in.

We decided shortly after marriage that a more old-fashioned situation works for us. I don't work out of the house, except for eBay which, though a 6-day a week "job" when going full-steam, is up to my own schedule. But I gladly make good dinners for Jon to come home to, keep a clean home, do laundry, while he goes out and earns a regular paycheck.

It just plain works for us. It keeps us happy.

I'm actually a very strong feminist. But not radical. If a guy holds open a door for me, I'm very greatful. I like chivalry. I appreciate common kindness in any form.

Sorry for the scattered nature of this post. Got other stuff going on in the background, and I'm just sort of stream-of-consciousness typing.

[Fierce Critter]

By the way, I live being feminine. I love being girly. I have always been admired for my style when it comes to the goth/punk/alternative thing. And when asked my secret, I say "keep an aspect of femininity to it".

I love a guy that's sortof androgynous, which Jon definitely was when we first got together. I miss that a bit. The long hair, the almost female figure he had. But damned if he doesn't turn me on when his hair is groomed and he's in a suit. Raowr.

I don't do anything to please society, though. If something works for me and goes either against or with society, that's purely coincidental. Yeah, I can call myself a feminist. But I think I'm more a "me-ist".

[sass_in_the_pants]

What is it to be a woman? To me it means the gift of creation. If your a guy, you can just walk away. I think its harder for a woman. After carrying those things around in you for 9 months it is hard to walk away. I know some moms do, but I never could. I am all pro choice, just not for me. I could never even bring myself to get an abortion.

And its about true femininity.......I am no dyke thats for sure. I am as petite, girly and feminine as they come. There is NO WAY I could pull off the drag king bit. No one would buy it.

And I like my guys masculine.....able to protect me and carry me up the stairs if they had to.

HH, I think you got it. I'm over here yapping about meth and Gahndi, and I think you hit the nail on the head with ONE word - creation.

Current and future mothers, pay attention here, because I think this is SO freaking cool (and I learned all this from my geneticist husband by the way, which makes it even weirder)...

The mother's body does not create the placenta, the zygote produces it. This placenta forms a web of blood vessels with the mother's body. So, during the pregnancy, cells from the placenta are traveling throughout the woman's entire body. This is called micro-chimerism. Once the baby is born, those cells are still circulating in the mother's body. In time, many will die off, but some, the ones that implant in her brain, for example, will stay with her for her entire life. As much as she is a part of that child, that child is now a part of her. Even if she never sees that child, even if the baby is stillborn, there will forever be implanted within her physical being, cellular evidence that she carried a child. That's profound if you really think about it.

And think about this, too. When a girl is born, she has all of the eggs she will ever have in her whole life. So, half of you was created in your GRANDMOTHER'S womb. And that girl's development in utero, the development of her brain, her limbs and even her eggs, is dependent on the health and well-being of her mother. Which means that, for the latter half of 1947, everything my 20-something grandmother did, every food that she ate, every pill that she swallowed, and every drop of alcohol that she (thankfully) did not imbibe, all of those small actions done by an even smaller woman in 1947 led up to my creation as a healthy human being. Half of me, by the end of 1947 was already made, and the man who would provide the other genetic half of me, wasn’t even born yet. And this, this is an awesome resposibility. You are no longer responsible for yourself, but your children, AND your children's children.

This, of course, is not true at all for a man. They can father a child without even knowing they did so. They can walk away from a woman they impregnated and know that their offspring will survive. They can leave their newborn baby, and know that they never had a responsibility to feed it anyway.

And I think from this fundamental biological difference everything else precipitates. We can talk about social constructs all we want, but before even THOSE were in place, before the phrase 'social constructs' was even uttered, there was this indisputable difference. And I don't think this is a difference to be taken lightly or simply at face value. I think this one fact colors how women think about the world, and interact with it.

[Steven]

Feminine and masculine are pretty useless labels. All they serve is to devalue women and men who aren't "womanly" or "manly" enough. Their exact meanings are derived from antiquated social castes and perpetuated through pop culture as evidenced by Phee earlier.

what?

the thing with his pants?

[Steven]

This, of course, is not true at all for a man. They can father a child without even knowing they did so. They can walk away from a woman they impregnated and know that their offspring will survive. They can leave their newborn baby, and know that they never had a responsibility to feed it anyway.

And I think from this fundamental biological difference everything else precipitates. We can talk about social constructs all we want, but before even THOSE were in place, before the phrase 'social constructs' was even uttered, there was this indisputable difference. And I don't think this is a difference to be taken lightly or simply at face value. I think this one fact colors how women think about the world, and interact with it.

I'd like to think the term "fathering" equates to much more than a sperm deposit.

[Msterbeau]

I'd like to think the term "fathering" equates to much more than a sperm deposit.

Ah... But the question before us is about being a man or a woman... not father or mother.

And you might rightly ask, "what's the difference?"

I have no answer. I just like to ask questions.

[Steven]

Feminine and masculine are pretty useless labels. All they serve is to devalue women and men who aren't "womanly" or "manly" enough. Their exact meanings are derived from antiquated social castes and perpetuated through pop culture as evidenced by Phee earlier.

hmmmmm

I would think that this depends on both the labeler and the recipient and the motivation therin.

Now granted, I love a gal in a t shirt and jeans who can hang with the boyz and go camping has an adventurous spirit. I love that.

But I also must add that to me, a woman who is traditionally "ladylike" is also quite a turn on. probably because it is simply SO different from who and what I am, that it is intriguing. I find nothing derogatory in a beautiful creature who moves gracefully and smells amazing and knows how to present herself in a manner that highlights certain gifts she may possess. I also very much appreciate a certain air of refinement (not aloofness mind you) because again, I SO do not come from that. And its not always physical. How a woman communicates verbally can be incredibly stimulating as well. All of those things to me are a part of feminimity....and I have always received that vibe as evidence of a lady who is quite in touch with who she is and at ease with herself.....

As for manly enough - if you've got your shit togethor or are at least on the path of getting your shit togethor with intention then I'd call that pretty manly. In fact that's about ALL I'd call pretty manly. I dont see that as de-valuing either.

by the way Pop culture's message of manliness and feminimity also churns out models such as Brittney and K Fed.

[Msterbeau]

Here's another: Does a man teach his children differently then a woman does or are the perceived differences a result of the historical gender programing we as humans have evolved with?

[Steven]

Ah... But the question before us is about being a man or a woman... not father or mother.

And you might rightly ask, "what's the difference?"

I have no answer. I just like to ask questions.

that was pretty damn good, Bud.

[Steven]

Here's another: Does a man teach his children differently then a woman does or are the perceived differences a result of the historical gender programing we as humans have evolved with?

Holy chit your on a roll.

the answer I imagine may have to be sub-divided into different caste's.

for example the life lessons of a stockbroker in Laguna Beach versus those handed down by his gardener (who happens to be MY father) to his son.....

or we could study the basic trends in America. Take a look at how many fathers no longer live in the family unit and have moved on toward family unit number two or three, search for common social traits within the children, etc.

I also tend to beleive that when a man fails to maintain his commitments to the family, he and his ex wife tend to teach similar things by way of example.

[Msterbeau]

hmmmmm

I would think that this depends on both the labeler and the recipient and the motivation therin.

Now granted, I love a gal in a t shirt and jeans who can hang with the boyz and go camping has an adventurous spirit. I love that.

But I also must add that to me, a woman who is traditionally "ladylike" is also quite a turn on. probably because it is simply SO different from who and what I am, that it is intriguing. I find nothing derogatory in a beautiful creature who moves gracefully and smells amazing and knows how to present herself in a manner that highlights certain gifts she may possess. I also very much appreciate a certain air of refinement (not aloofness mind you) because again, I SO do not come from that. And its not always physical. How a woman communicates verbally can be incredibly stimulating as well. All of those things to me are a part of feminimity....and I have always received that vibe as evidence of a lady who is quite in touch with who she is and at ease with herself.....

As for manly enough - if you've got your shit togethor or are at least on the path of getting your shit togethor with intention then I'd call that pretty manly. In fact that's about ALL I'd call pretty manly. I dont see that as de-valuing either.

by the way Pop culture's message of manliness and feminimity also churns out models such as Brittney and K Fed.

I was a taking my time getting involved in this discussion, not so much now. :-)

I keep hearing you equating a sense of responsibility and purpose with being masculine. And every time I hear that I can't help but think that that can apply to a woman too, but it doesn't make her masculine. Those are traits of mature adults regardless of sex.

I find it interesting that when you're a "real man" or a "real woman" that the traits used to describe said person (stereotype) are almost always positive, and are generally characteristics of any decent mature adult. So how can they be reserved only for one gender? Why is it only the good stuff makes it on the list? Are the people who say these kinds of statements too insecure about the downside of their gender to admit so?

[BrassFusion]

the negative gender stereotypes can apply to a person of either gender just like the positive ones can.

[Msterbeau]

the negative gender stereotypes can apply to a person of either gender just like the positive ones can.

Yeah. No kidding. But WHY is a "real man" ,for instance, only described as having good qualities? The more accurate way to describe him would be the "ideal man". Being real means you get the bad with the good, if you ask me. And even if you don't...

[BrassFusion]

one of my colleagues in the concert i played last night fluttered her finger at me showing me this ring she was wearing, and she's like, "it's pretty but it's so faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake!!" and i'm like, "huh! looks like real jewelry to me."

i may not be a diamond either, but i'm definitely a real woman

[Steven]

I was a taking my time getting involved in this discussion, not so much now. :-)

I keep hearing you equating a sense of responsibility and purpose with being masculine. And every time I hear that I can't help but think that that can apply to a woman too, but it doesn't make her masculine. Those are traits of mature adults regardless of sex.

I find it interesting that when you're a "real man" or a "real woman" that the traits used to describe said person (stereotype) are almost always positive, and are generally characteristics of any decent mature adult. So how can they be reserved only for one gender? Why is it only the good stuff makes it on the list? Are the people who say these kinds of statements too insecure about the downside of their gender to admit so?

and I keep saying that I agree with you both (erin ) that these charactoristics do and should apply to both genders, but that I have a concern over what I beleive is a trend toward a lack in these charactoristics in males in society, and that because I am a male, I lean toward some degree of insistence in that regard. and no I am not too insecure to state plainly what I think is happening. I've been saying it for a long time.

as a working example: Laura and I often coucil with struggling couples and occasionally teach group marriage (bible based) classes. The overall lesson plans and interaction is presented to the group as a whole. But there are also times when we will split the group - Laura councils with the ladies and I council the men. We have also reversed roles in that regard - so that the men can hear a womn's point of view outside of their own marriage and vice versa.

and you are right that these are traits of adulthood.

bingo bango.

and therefore I do not like to call a boy a man. Or more specifically, a self centered person, a man.

I know "boys" that are in their mid-40's, still completely selfish, detatched, with a history of failed relationships and children left on the lurch who are learning those patterns from their fathers.

my own father, is one of them. His marriage (#2) has been a facade for 30 years. They are married but they basically hate each other an co-habitate because christians dont get divorced. Half of his children do not speak to him. He is uncomfortable with self reflection, so he does not do any. He is uncomfortable with asking for help, so he does not. He is unsure of his position before God, so he allows others to declare that for him. He cannot own his own mistakes, so he powers on ahead toward the grave with the results of his past choices still taking control.

One of my brothers is exactly like that too.

so yes, the are technically "men".

but more specifically, what they are is defeated. They stay within the same comfort zones which bring them no pleasure and no healng, and impact nothing for change. its shame. pisses me off to be honest.

[Steven]

quick adder:

not sure if i've ever in any of these posts used the term "REAL MAN"....

and Erin, I dont think I've seen anybody use the term "REAL WOMAN" either. and to me, I think you are....

now back to our sort of argument......

[sass_in_the_pants]

I'd like to think the term "fathering" equates to much more than a sperm deposit.

And mothering equals much more than birthing...'fathering' probably wasn't the right word to use there...here's what I was getting at....(and, by the way, this is the part that is going to get me in trouble)...for a child to survive, physically, it needs only its mother. And I think that is why some of the qualities associated with manhood (note, I'm saying manhood here, not masculinity), are dependability, and stability, and responsibility, and patience...because these are the qualities that are also necessary for fatherhood. To be a good father, one must first be a good man.

And of course women, too, have to be all of these things, but as a woman, you have very physical and real ties to your offspring. For a man, the bond is entirely emotional. Not only the mere strength of their bond with their children, but that bond's very EXISTENCE, is dependent on what type of character he has.

[Steven]

And mothering equals much more than birthing...'fathering' probably wasn't the right word to use there...here's what I was getting at....(and, by the way, this is the part that is going to get me in trouble)...for a child to survive, physically, it needs only its mother. And I think that is why some of the qualities associated with manhood (note, I'm saying manhood here, not masculinity), are dependability, and stability, and responsibility, and patience...because these are the qualities that are also necessary for fatherhood. To be a good father, one must first be a good man.

And of course women, too, have to be all of these things, but as a woman, you have very physical and real ties to your offspring. For a man, the bond is entirely emotional. Not only the mere strength of their bond with their children, but that bond's very EXISTENCE, is dependent on what type of character he has.

AHA!!!

she gets it!!.

this is part of what I've been trying to illustrate in my claim that the common day trend in Men is to cut and run....because they can. Many men nowadays are simply not interested in embracing (let alone facing) the reality of what you just posted here so wonderfully.

and this is why I asked for all the men here in DGN who's fathers took the time to intentionally model certain behaviours to "please stand up....."

I mean c'mon, we even joke about "who da babby daddy?" but dont stop to think that this too is indicitive of a trend that we now find humorous, although the end result is tragic.

I started paying attention to much of this stuff when Laura got involved in special ed (which she did for 11 years)

the majority of the kids who she worked with (and some fo whom we got invovled with on a personal level) had some legit learngin disabilities, but as a whole, what they had overall were terrible social skills and emotional scarring.

and in almost every single case for 11 years we saw three distinct dynamics:

A) Daddy long gone with hot wife number three

or

B) Daddy home but Daddy BIG TIME uninvolved in almost any level save for yelling

and always (always)

C) Mommy exhausted, pulling Daddy Duty AND Mommy Duty and having no energy or resources for a rebound. Oh, and msot of those Mommies had to work full time too.

also in just about every case where the kids were allready sexually active and yet not socially equipped there was no Daddy at home.

[BrassFusion]

Women are capable of cutting and running, too, they just don't do it as often for physical and cultural reasons. That doesn't make women more emotionally mature than men overall.

[Steven]

Women are capable of cutting and running, too, they just don't do it as often for physical and cultural reasons. That doesn't make women more emotionally mature than men overall.

I know.

my Mom did the cut and run.

saw her a handful of times till I was 14.

and she sucked in the parental department (great at scoring dope though).

you'd think I'd be biased against women in this regard, I'm not.

I had two shitty parents.

happens to the best of us.

Only difference is, Mom grew up and starting assuming responsibility.

Dad never did.

and I think whatever contributes to a trend, we have a trend nonetheless.

in this case I still think Men lead the way in the cut and run department.

wish it wasent so, but it is...

[BrassFusion]

You could argue that black people are less responsible than white people because they "cut and run" more often, but most people really don't make that connection publicly...

[Homicidalheathen]

My dad who is one to throw out the 'N' word occasionally, but never in refference to his own race......left us for a year on a drunken binge. I was 4 and although I didn't comprehend much, I knew food was scarce and it scared the crap out of me.

I have no idea why he thinks he is better than anyone else but he does.

As do most people.

[Steven]

You could argue that black people are less responsible than white people because they "cut and run" more often, but most people really don't make that connection publicly...

yeah um, I DIDINT make that argument cause I'm not talking about that issue and my my my but you'll go to some lengths to stick to a point. Incidently, when Bill Cosby talks about exactly that which you just stated people get pissed at him too - even though he's black and concerned with that which he has an affinity for and has experienced within that part of his existence on earth.

I tend to say publically, that which I think privately.

[BrassFusion]

I guess you didn't believe me when I said that racism and sexism are the same thing to me.

[Steven]

I guess you didn't believe me when I said that racism and sexism are the same thing to me.

Look at this thread, three pages and growing.....have we gotten anything done with it at least?

I beleive you Brass. I even understand you (I think I do) to a certain degree.

I dont think that any of us can seperate our own experiences from the working definition of that which we either defend or repel. Ultimately we draw from within ourselves when we're seeking truth so that our individual convictions have a right to be heard. And that's ok.

I dont know what its like to be a woman, or how to accurately empathize with what you beleive needs to be enlightened.

Likewise, you dont know what its like to be a Mexican American Man, although I will say its good work if you can get it.

I do like talking to you though.

Steven