What Is It To Be A Man Or A Woman?

[phee]

To be honest (this may need it's own thread) I don't think "isms" are very good in a general sense at all...

[Steven]

you mean an ism thread?

[Steven]

some isms we may one day want to explore add the (ism to the end)

human

spiritual

republican

race

sex

[BrassFusion]

Republicanism, humanism, spiritualism- those can be fine, cool, and awesome. I think the problem with "isms" is more toward the ones that differentiate between groups of people in terms of abilities, rights, or worths: racism, sexism, etc.

It'd probably be closer to the topic of "isms overall" for me to say that people should generally assume they're more alike than different- how do you know that being an Erin is so much different than being a Steven, and what good does it do you to assume that's true?

[Steven]

Republicanism, humanism, spiritualism- those can be fine, cool, and awesome. I think the problem with "isms" is more toward the ones that differentiate between groups of people in terms of abilities, rights, or worths: racism, sexism, etc.

It'd probably be closer to the topic of "isms overall" for me to say that people should generally assume they're more alike than different- how do you know that being an Erin is so much different than being a Steven, and what good does it do you to assume that's true?

thats a good question.

its got to be at least somewhat different though.

for example I lack your vocabulary and you lack my receeding hairline.

entire empires could be built on those two things alone.....

[BrassFusion]

I don't think of it as lacking a receding hairline. I think of it as having an abbreviated forehead.

[Steven]

I don't think of it as lacking a receding hairline. I think of it as having an abbreviated forehead.

always half full your glass is.....

[BrassFusion]

always half full your glass is.....

Half a glass of brew is never a glass half empty.

[Steven]

Half a glass of brew is never a glass half empty.

....my kinda girl....

[sinmantyx]

Obviously men and women use different public restrooms, why is no one picketing outside city hall for that form of sexism?

Some social norms aren't so bad. I like having a girl-only bathroom. I'm also happy that there actually IS female bathrooms in the Senate and House and the Physics Department. I'm also happy that businesses are FINALLY putting baby-changing stations in men's bathrooms!!!

There are battles worth winning on this front. There are FINALLY men's rights groups that are dealing with the whole: yeah, we know your X-wife is a drug-addicted child molester, but your a man, so she gets custody...have a nice day. There may not be "masculinists" err...whatever...but I'll be happy when the day comes when boys and men actually have support structures in place for them when THEY are abused. I'll be happy when their lives are considered just as valuable as women's lives.

[sinmantyx]

As far as the "real man" and "real woman" thing...there are two ways of approaching that. There is the whole "humans are great...why latch onto roles" thing, which is peachy keen.

However, I think a more interesting approach is to think of the "form" of man and the "form" of woman; and then strike a balance between the two aspects of the self. So, everyone has a masculine and feminine aspect. What are those aspects? I think both have equal value...but they certainly are not the same.

I'm always surprised at how traditional people are at times...frankly, especially on this board...whoever said I should stay out of the football team?! I would have made a REALLY great line-backer in high school. I'm not even kidding. I was bigger than most kids and my god-given XX-induced low center-of-mass and strong legs would have made me do very well, not because of brute strength, but stability.

At some point, we simply have to treat people as individuals. That's really all there is to it. As far as the roles we chose to fulfill and what we are capable of; that depends on who we really are. Generalizations and even biological causation mean little when you are presented with a sample-space of one.

That's one reason I like to think of being a "woman" or "man" as a personal balance between feminine and masculine aspects. Someone who is truly "all man" or truly "all woman" would be in some ways "imbalanced".

I'm still pretty horrified that in thousands of years, it is still considered an insult to call a man a "woman", but a compliment to say a woman is like a man. I think that's pretty shitty. I don't think we're going to get away from that UNLESS we identify the positive and negative aspects of what is considered feminine and masculine.

[torn asunder]

However, I think a more interesting approach is to think of the "form" of man and the "form" of woman; and then strike a balance between the two aspects of the self. So, everyone has a masculine and feminine aspect. What are those aspects? I think both have equal value...but they certainly are not the same.

to me, the perfect man (or woman) cultivates both the masculine and feminine forms within themselves, and embraces both. i don't think we should ever be "half", when we can be "whole"...

That's one reason I like to think of being a "woman" or "man" as a personal balance between feminine and masculine aspects. Someone who is truly "all man" or truly "all woman" would be in some ways "imbalanced".

HA!! got ahead of myself - posted before reading this!!

[JaneDead]

What makes a man? What makes a woman? Body parts and hormones- and in some cases, those aren't even distinct. The biggest part of gender identity is what you tell yourself you ought to be. We have pop culture to thank for most of those flawed preconceptions.

agreed

[JaneDead]

Some social norms aren't so bad. I like having a girl-only bathroom.

me too. boys pee on the floor. and urinal cakes are just gross.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I'm rather amused at this thread. I see a number of people who believe in evolution that can somehow find it in them selvs to deny gender roles at an extension of biology.

Just look at every other animal on the planet... every species has gender roles... except us.. for us it's a social thing and we can over come it...

[BrassFusion]

I'm rather amused at this thread. I see a number of people who believe in evolution that can somehow find it in them selvs to deny gender roles at an extension of biology.

Just look at every other animal on the planet... every species has gender roles... except us.. for us it's a social thing and we can over come it...

Who on here denied the biological development of gender roles? You're right about one thing, anyway, we're ALREADY past the need for gender roles because we're just that much smarter than all the other animals.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Not directly, no. Yet, people do talk about social conditioning as if it can undo a few million years of evolution in a few hundred years. Animal instinct is right there at the root of all of what we are. We can fight it and it's a nobel cause, but in the end, it is going to take a really long time to erase gender roles.

My point is, social conditioning is not what created gender roles. Gender roles were created by evolution and biology.

[Steven]

Not directly, no. Yet, people do talk about social conditioning as if it can undo a few million years of evolution in a few hundred years. Animal instinct is right there at the root of all of what we are. We can fight it and it's a nobel cause, but in the end, it is going to take a really long time to erase gender roles.

My point is, social conditioning is not what created gender roles. Gender roles were created by evolution and biology.

aha!!!!

somebody is thinking beyond their own agenda and want for indipendence....

kudos to Mark on this argument.

by the way if we are so dang enlighted at this stage of our human existece then why do we stand so close to the precipice and why are so many of our children numbed chemically? Shouldent we be FAR beyond all of that by now? I just dont see the correlation between the theory of successful human existence on mothership earth and the actual history of our existence. they dont add up. we fuck shit up, we always have. Sometimes we are absolutely brillinat in how we do it, but we do it nonetheless.

[BrassFusion]

Not directly, no. Yet, people do talk about social conditioning as if it can undo a few million years of evolution in a few hundred years. Animal instinct is right there at the root of all of what we are. We can fight it and it's a nobel cause, but in the end, it is going to take a really long time to erase gender roles.

My point is, social conditioning is not what created gender roles. Gender roles were created by evolution and biology.

I know. I said earlier that gender roles rose from evolution. But who gave you the psychic ability to forecast MY instincts?

aha!!!!

somebody is thinking beyond their own agenda and want for indipendence....

kudos to Mark on this argument.

by the way if we are so dang enlighted at this stage of our human existece then why do we stand so close to the precipice and why are so many of our children numbed chemically? Shouldent we be FAR beyond all of that by now? I just dont see the correlation between the theory of successful human existence on mothership earth and the actual history of our existence. they dont add up. we fuck shit up, we always have. Sometimes we are absolutely brillinat in how we do it, but we do it nonetheless.

Hmm. I don't have any chemically numbed children, myself. So I don't see why you're lumping me in with everyone else. All I want is a blank slate, sexually, I want to be Erin instead of just "some woman," instead of y'all having expectations of me that I may not care to fulfill. I think everyone deserves that, and it's healthier in this stage of our species development than consigning individuals to those roles. Freedom's an opportunity, not a reward.

[Steven]

I know. I said earlier that gender roles rose from evolution. But who gave you the psychic ability to forecast MY instincts?

Hmm. I don't have any chemically numbed children, myself. So I don't see why you're lumping me in with everyone else. All I want is a blank slate, sexually, I want to be Erin instead of just "some woman," instead of y'all having expectations of me that I may not care to fulfill. I think everyone deserves that, and it's healthier in this stage of our species development than consigning individuals to those roles. Freedom's an opportunity, not a reward.

cracking up a bit. good reply. Im lumping by way of topical subject Brass, not neccessarily drawign a bead on you.

I liked your very last statement and may borrow that sometime....

a question to you in light of what you said about outside expectations being made of you....and its just a question, I am not condoning what I'm asking....just making an observation on what I think is basic human nature:

"Arent we really all just a bunch of lemmings?"

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Erin.. noone gets a blank state. Noone. Why? We are all humans and we are chained to that. I can forcast your instincts because of that. You are the result of about 3 million years of evolution. Sure, there may be some varience in your reactions and behaviours.. but in the end.. you will reeact and behave within a certian frame of referance. Why do people feel the need to fight what we are rahter than embrace it and use it to the best of our abilitys?

I am not saying we need to give up and just react with instinct.. to never try to rise above the generation before... I'm saying we need to accept what we are... I think thats like.. step one or some shit in AA...

We, as a people, deny much of what it is/was that made us what we are/are to become because it doesn;t fit with our modern sensabilitys.

There are differences beyond biology in what is male and what is female. We are trying to hard to be equal that we try to downplay or completly ignore the real differences between us. We think differently.. we have different skill sets... we learn differently...

We shun all of this in the name of equality when we should be embracing it and then using those differences to better ourselves.

Women are better at some things than men. Men are better at other things. We throw all that away and loose the benifits they could give us.

[BrassFusion]

cracking up a bit. good reply. Im lumping by way of topical subject Brass, not neccessarily drawign a bead on you.

I liked your very last statement and may borrow that sometime....

I was pretty proud of that one, actually. I'm def gonna reuse it.

a question to you in light of what you said about outside expectations being made of you....and its just a question, I am not condoning what I'm asking....just making an observation on what I think is basic human nature:

"Arent we really all just a bunch of lemmings?"

Speak for yourself, uh... Lemmy. (Is that a name, like, Lemmy the Lemming? It should be.) I won't deny that there's a general herd mentality going on, but what possible justification could one have to force a herd mentality at the cost of another's pursuit of happiness? Just for the sake of conformity?

Erin.. noone gets a blank state. Noone. Why? We are all humans and we are chained to that. I can forcast your instincts because of that. You are the result of about 3 million years of evolution. Sure, there may be some varience in your reactions and behaviours.. but in the end.. you will reeact and behave within a certian frame of referance. Why do people feel the need to fight what we are rahter than embrace it and use it to the best of our abilitys?

I do what I want when I want because I want to and because I can, and no amount of conjecture on your part can force my hand one way or the other. I'm sorry.

I am not saying we need to give up and just react with instinct.. to never try to rise above the generation before... I'm saying we need to accept what we are... I think thats like.. step one or some shit in AA...

We, as a people, deny much of what it is/was that made us what we are/are to become because it doesn;t fit with our modern sensabilitys.

If I was an alcoholic, the surest way to cure myself of it would be first admitting that I'm an alcoholic, accepting it as a truth. If I was trying to deny my alcoholic nature.

By your logic here, I need to admit I'm a woman... so I can deny my womanly nature? I don't understand. I have no internal conflict that needs resolution. If I did, you can bet I wouldn't be fighting for my freedom to behave as I always have been without needing to justify it to the likes of you (no offense intended with that, I just love how that phrase sounds... "to the likes of you!!" )

There are differences beyond biology in what is male and what is female. We are trying to hard to be equal that we try to downplay or completly ignore the real differences between us. We think differently.. we have different skill sets... we learn differently...

We shun all of this in the name of equality when we should be embracing it and then using those differences to better ourselves.

Women are better at some things than men. Men are better at other things. We throw all that away and loose the benifits they could give us.

I do not throw away the fact that I'm creative, emotionally secure, and good with words: what some may call my more "feminine" characteristics. Nor do I deny my womanly beauty. I do, however, embrace my logical and analytical aspects. I also like being extroverted and confident, which are classical masculine traits, so I've heard.

I could be blinded by my pride at being such a well-balanced individual, but I personally believe that my confidence and reasoning skills are my finest. I'm a great leader and a great communicator, so that's what I do. If anything, my empathy skills are lacking, and it's a well-supported theory that women are more biologically apt to be empathetic. So where does that leave me?

A woman who acts quite like a man and is very happy to act quite like a man and would be happier still if people around her accepted their own true natures as well, instead of getting all worked up about not being "masculine" or "feminine" enough. I'm the best person I can be, Mark, BECAUSE I'm in touch with my true abilities.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

I'm not sure where I said you need to justify jack to anyone. I was talking about us in a general "human condition" kind of way and how it in some way applys to all of us, including you. WE, as a people, delude ourselves into thinking we are something more than what we are. That because we can think and reason we are somehow immune to the biology of what we are. No matter how you try to rationalize it, we are nothing more than complex chemical reactions controlled by millions of years of fine tuning.

I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong in thier approach to life. Our higher brain functions and social conditioning convince us that we can ignore the inherrint "flaws" in our makeup that have helped to make us what we are rather than lets us embrace them and use them to the betterment of mankind.

If men and women learn in different ways (as many a study suggests) then why not teach them in ways that would put learning to it's maximum?

[BrassFusion]

I'm not sure where I said you need to justify jack to anyone. I was talking about us in a general "human condition" kind of way and how it in some way applys to all of us, including you. WE, as a people, delude ourselves into thinking we are something more than what we are. That because we can think and reason we are somehow immune to the biology of what we are. No matter how you try to rationalize it, we are nothing more than complex chemical reactions controlled by millions of years of fine tuning.

I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong in thier approach to life. Our higher brain functions and social conditioning convince us that we can ignore the inherrint "flaws" in our makeup that have helped to make us what we are rather than lets us embrace them and use them to the betterment of mankind.

If men and women learn in different ways (as many a study suggests) then why not teach them in ways that would put learning to it's maximum?

Men and women don't learn in different ways. Everyone learns in different ways. I'm a kinesthetic/visual, myself.

I feel it would be a disservice to students to assume that they'll learn in a particular way because of their gender. It's best for teachers to use a variety of methods and try to learn which ones best fit each individual student... I say this as a teacher.

[sinmantyx]

Not directly, no. Yet, people do talk about social conditioning as if it can undo a few million years of evolution in a few hundred years. Animal instinct is right there at the root of all of what we are. We can fight it and it's a nobel cause, but in the end, it is going to take a really long time to erase gender roles.

My point is, social conditioning is not what created gender roles. Gender roles were created by evolution and biology.

Of course we're animals...mammals! Now, the lie here is the assumption that other animals "gender roles" are not variable. They are. The socialization of humans is not to DENY the variability of gender roles but to ENFORCE them.

My cat "Chainsaw" is a female cat. However, she certainly (unlike my other three unfixed female cats) takes on the "male gender role" when they go into heat. If all four of them were human, my poor cat "Chainsaw" would be in the closet, be told she was inherently sinful and had to stop her horrible behavior because in God's eyes it was an abomination!

I mean, have you ever seen a gay-penguin couple get gay-bashed? I know being gay and "gender roles" are two different things...but think about it.

My fish that actually changes sex periodically (turns the MASCULINE bright pink and back to the FEMININE neutral color) isn't getting harassed or losing it job for being trans-gender, now is it?

Biodiversity makes people different than one another. To say that people should have choice in how they express their natural tendency is not denying biology, but allowing biology to express itself.

Now, as far as a PERSONAL realization of one's gender, I do think that sometimes we're so afraid of being cast in stereotypes that we deny our own identity to some degree. (On the other hand, many people are MORE than happy to jump into the social-norm prescribed for them.)

XX-linked traits....I got um! I have good eyesight and hearing! I sit when I pee. I have mood swings on a monthly cycle (usually, but not right now because I have a baby in me). I can FIND stuff in a cluttered room. I use both halves of my brain for many tasks. I talk a lot. I tend to attempt consensus in leadership positions. I have a high pain tolerance in stressful situations. I have a low center of mass. I vary the tone of my voice over a large range. My 3-dimensional spacial reasoning is sometimes a challenge. I can read body language well. The concept of sex turns me on more than visual depictions of sex. My lower body strength far better than my upper body strength.

These are "girl things". However, not everyone exhibits these "girl things" even if they are physically girls. The traditional gender roles of subservience, exclusive care-giving, and submissiveness are really nowhere to be found.

My "gathering" nature helps me find the keys when my husband cannot....WOW. Let's base our entire social structure on that and shoot all the women who can't find stuff and all the men who have this *perverse* ability!