The New 'illness'

[Marblez]

To "want" to? That's not so bad. To actually consider it - thats not bad.

Err, I meant actually considering it WAS bad. oops!

[Marblez]

Unfortunately, many people with volitile tempers already self medicate, they crack open a cold one to "relax". Of course, we all know where this leads. If this person recognizes that he/she has a problem and can prevent breakdowns from occurring in knowingly stressful situations, why not?

Hell, even if your temper stops short of violence...imagine if every little thing tended to piss you off. That would make for a fairly miserable existance.

[ManicQueen]

Unfortunately, many people with volitile tempers already self medicate, they crack open a cold one to "relax". Of course, we all know where this leads. If this person recognizes that he/she has a problem and can prevent breakdowns from occurring in knowingly stressful situations, why not?

Hell, even if your temper stops short of violence...imagine if every little thing tended to piss you off. That would make for a fairly miserable existance.

Yup, there was a time, not to long ago where every little thing set me off. The kids, the spouse.. waking up in the morning. I was angry and aggitated all the time. Little did I know that I was going through Post-pardum Depression.

It took me almost a year and a half to figure that out and get my ass into therapy and on meds. Both have worked very well. The medication helped stabilize me while I was learning to cope with my anger and feelings through therapy.

I am happy to say that without the combination of both, I'm sure I'd be in a really bad place right now. Although, I have been off medication for a few months *and doing fine* I'm still in counseling and feeling great.

[Onyx]

I believe in physical punishment, to a point...only if it is deserving of such a tremendous repricussion, to teach the child not to do that act again. Dropping milk on the floor, no, it was an accident. Done again, on purpose? Time out on the couch. Now, something such as hitting someone for no reason or stealing, that would be deserving of a 'spanking', if you will.

But lashing out on your child just cause your check for your car insurance bounced?! That's unforgiveable...it sickens me to see parents beat their children for their own mishaps in life. That kind of action needs to be recognized with therapy and if need be some medicine.

Yes. So many kids are just left to run wild and they act out because it's the only way they can get their parent's attention. Not disciplining a child is just another kind of abuse.

There are a lot of ways to deal with disobedient children other than spanking though. Some of them work way better.

[kellygrrrrrl]

Wow, good reads Penthesilea and Crimson Scales.....I enjoyed those!

[Onyx]

I agree with you, Penthesilea.

I have the 'symptoms' of ADD, and SAD (Social Anxiety Disorder). A teacher suggested Ritalin to my mother in third grade, and I'm happy she said no to it. I did space out a lot in school, and I'm guessing that I could've done a LOT better if I was actually on the drug. I had very low grades, lots of D's and F's.

Unfortunately for me, I'm not a functioning member of society.

Fascinating discussion!

I agree with some of what you have to say, but I also agree with Breassfusion in that it is easier to change the system from the inside.

What do you mean when you say you are not a functioning member of society?

[Steven]

I spent most of my life wondering what was wrong with me. Why couldn't I do what others seemed to be doing - like homework. Hell, I had no doubt in my intelligence - why couldn't I just seem to get things done. Why do I suck so bad, why do I insist on letting everyone down? Always felt as if there was something physically stopping me from being productive. It sure wasn't a lack of drive or motivation...I hated myself for not being able to live up to that damn "potential" my parents, teachers and yes, even employers were always spouting about because I SAW IT TOO. I was introduced to ritalin a year or two ago, (aka Concerta) and medically it is the best thing that could have happened to me, my self esteem, my work and personal life. I now know that when I am on it, I am able to perform the same as others and that I wasn't just a lazy bum wading through life.

but...to each his own.

ok I wanted to give this some thought before really addressing it because you are one of my favorite people ever and I wanted to look at this objectively....

and I think...perhaps....several of us are talking about different scenarios.

Tina you talked about the benefits of Concerta and how it has helped you. Without details I am assuming that to some degree (and correct me if I'm wrong because I dont know) the medicine has helped you with focus and centering and has allowed you to stay motivated.

But earlier we were talking about anger, and delaing or not dealing with it and calling it an illness...which is where I latched on with my "Danger Will Robinson" nonsense......

and I think there is a difference between the two.

the lines on all of this get painfully thin as well.....social anxieties in general, are tricky things.....how many need to be addressed chemically....and how many chemical imbalances are the biproducts of social disfunctions themselves????? Its just not that simple.

I did self medicate for years. Down on the corner and in the back alley, true. But I did those things for a reason, and I had many of the same symptoms of many different common knowledge disorders and maybe even still do.

Steven

[Marblez]

ok I wanted to give this some thought before really addressing it because you are one of my favorite people ever and I wanted to look at this objectively....

and I think...perhaps....several of us are talking about different scenarios.

Tina you talked about the benefits of Concerta and how it has helped you. Without details I am assuming that to some degree (and correct me if I'm wrong because I dont know) the medicine has helped you with focus and centering and has allowed you to stay motivated.

But earlier we were talking about anger, and delaing or not dealing with it and calling it an illness...which is where I latched on with my "Danger Will Robinson" nonsense......

and I think there is a difference between the two.

the lines on all of this get painfully thin as well.....social anxieties in general, are tricky things.....how many need to be addressed chemically....and how many chemical imbalances are the biproducts of social disfunctions themselves????? Its just not that simple.

I did self medicate for years. Down on the corner and in the back alley, true. But I did those things for a reason, and I had many of the same symptoms of many different common knowledge disorders and maybe even still do.

Steven

I don't wish to appear high and mighty here, but I will never agree to self medicating. I have never even experimented with illicit/prohibited drugs. There are too many things that will affect different people in different ways to make your own decisions about dosage and avoidance of side effects. Oh, and then there's the little addiction and overdose problems. I don't look down on those that have experimented and I respect those that have overcome.

My statements regarding ADD/Concerta were in response to the growing sentiment in this thread that we are overly medicated as a people. I want others to know that often it really isn't just that we should learn to deal with our differences as humans. Through science, we have the ability to make people's lives better. As in my case, there really, truly is such a thing as "better living through pharmaceuticals".

My mom was told about ADD when I was in 3rd grade but didn't want me "labeled". So she resolved herself that I would just have to work harder. As a result, my self esteem suffered horribly. My school life was tragic - passing mostly with D's and E's, repeating classes up to 3 times. Having to spend every day of every school vacation doing pages and pages of missed homework with dry cracked bleeding fingers. Meanwhile, I am getting 98 to 100% on every aptitude test given me. Tina was the smart one, tina was the lazy one, tina could be a doctor, tina is a rebel. Tina hated herself because she could not do what she and others were expecting of her.

Another relation to an anti-anger medication and Concerta that I have not yet made is the fact that for many people, myself included, Concerta lessens the peaks of anger and depression. I have stayed on a very low dosage so this has not negatively impacted (i.e. zombified) me. But I could definitely recognize when I did not cry when I normally would have or get angry when I normally would have. This allowing me to think more rationally about the situation at hand rather than fly off on an impulse.

The same held true about my checkbook, less spiking impulses meant more money stayed in my bank account rather than being spent on worthless spending sprees.

I can survive without the drugs, no question. I am not taking them now due to the pregnancy. But I do look forward to the day that I can take them again.

Someone with a seemingly uncontrollable anger problem could and should go to therapy and work their ass of to try to become more at peace. (Like they all told me that I should just TRY HARDER at school) But what if it is just not that easy? What if they don't have the same motivators (family, etc) as the rest of us? Regardless of if the problem began in the womb, is due to a self inflicted chemical imbalance, or if it is a result of the person just being weak...who cares. I would prefer that person have the assistance of a self administered, thoughtfully distributed (Rx) magic pill to help keep them in check before they have a chance to blow my head off in a stupid instance of road rage.

[Steven]

Tina is my friend and Tina I have grown to love and Tina I respect and admire and listen to and value highly.

but it wasent (isint) that easy for me either. I have a long uphill story, Love that is filled with lots of backsliding and innocent people getting hurt. And my "therapy" if you will is/was neither popular nor common and definately was not quick. I'm 40 years old. DO you know how long it takes to un-do certain behaviours and emotional triggers?

In my case, I truly beleive medicating would not have helped me and in some ways would have stumped me. Yes my chemicl intake was "illicit" and was not doctor monitored, but I was seeking very much what I assume you were seaking. And to some degree it helped. And to some degree it stifled me.

there are thigns that likewise lessen the peak of anger and even anxiety in me, things I must return to from time to time like mentorship and accountability and prayer and discipline and transparancy and artistic expression (how many times now have you heard me say my stagework is my therapy??) which is never - ever - an easy ride, nothing ever in my life has been an easy ride. I know about rage and its side effects and had it beaten into me since I was a child. But I know both sides of the coin, to be the recipient and the aggressor and see the end result. Both you carry with you. One of them you carry in shame. And even that - can be a healthy catalyst. I've paid my prices Tina, you have no idea how many prices I have paid. And I understand very deeply, what it is to be on the end of "Steven is......" (or in your case, Tina is).

But please understand, that I am in no way making light of your circumstances or telling you what you should or should not do and what you are or are not capable of handling on your own and I am not seekign to categorize you. And I know that I need to be careful when I say things like "been there done that". I'm not trying to sound as flippant as I come off. I just know where I've been, sometimes that's just my way. And I dont have the family motivators that you speak of....I have Lola, yes, and I have the rest of you, and I hace a handful of others, and I have..................me.

and when you talk about $$ impulses, some of us did the same sort of things, via sex, or chemicals, or???? I became very creative in my impulse behaviour. In fact I still am, like I tend to write long run on sentences........

I hope you uunderstand what i am trying to say.

Must I bring out the popomatic game????

Steven

[Scales]

What do you mean when you say you are not a functioning member of society?

When I think of 'functioning member of society', I think of someone who would do anything to help society function. Out of observation I think a society that is created around corporatism and social classes will lead to destructive selfishness. I don't see the point in selective awareness and compassion to further self-destructive tendencies. I know that there are a lot of people who disagree with this.. but I strongly believe when you start trying to force hierarchy on people without their consent, you are trying to objectify them. A smart individual knows its not possible to be owned by anyone else, and returns the same respect to those around them. If I had to choose between people or society, I would choose people and discard society, since I see a system that embraces imbalance between ambition and relationships.

[Hellion]

When I think of 'functioning member of society', I think of someone who would do anything to help society function. Out of observation I think a society that is created around corporatism and social classes will lead to destructive selfishness. I don't see the point in selective awareness and compassion to further self-destructive tendencies. I know that there are a lot of people who disagree with this.. but I strongly believe when you start trying to force hierarchy on people without their consent, you are trying to objectify them. A smart individual knows its not possible to be owned by anyone else, and returns the same respect to those around them. If I had to choose between people or society, I would choose people and discard society, since I see a system that embraces imbalance between ambition and relationships.

And the truth of our fucked up society is revealed.

[sinmantyx]

I don't think there is anything wrong with calling something an "illness". Generally speaking, that just means that you are acknowledging that there is a REASON. Acknowledging reasons for behavior, doesn't excuse it.

I had two pretty scary breakdowns. One happened before an incident where I thought I was having an ovarian cyst burst, but now I suspect it was a miscarriage. The other one happened into my pregnancy before I knew that I was pregnant. They didn't last long. However, I went completely bonkers. I broke a chair by throwing it across a room in the first incident, but somehow I stopped myself from actually throwing anything AT my spouse. The second one was the most frightening. I almost asked to be taken to a doctor or something, I had NEVER felt that way. I was so angry I was shaking and I started breaking stuff. I felt so physically awful, I was scared to death. I was terrible to the people around me. There was MOST certainly a physical reason, having to do with hormone levels or what-have-you, for me to act in such a way. However, it certainly doesn't excuse me completely from responsibility.

So, after having these experiences, I'm counting on my family to make sure that after the birth my emotional and mental health do not deteriorate. (I'm doing absolutely fine now, btw, so no worries.) I've just been given a quick taste of how powerful and difficult such episodes can be. It also gives me some empathy for people with mood disorders and problems that they have extreme difficulting controlling.

I think we are too quick to medicate in many instances, however that doesn't mean that medications do not have their place. Sometimes mundane causes are not exhausted...such as deficiencies in essential fatty acids, lack of sleep, or lack of activity. I notice that the only time since that first incident in my pregnancy, the only time I felt as if my moods were unstable was the couple of days that I failed to take my prenatal vitamin. Sometimes it's that simple, and sometimes it's not.

I think we would do well, however, to search for the reasons behind behavior before simply putting someone in jail and throwing away the key. However, I tell you, if I ever hurt my son in the way that was described in the original post, it would be unthinkable for my family and the authorities not to step in and protect him...regardless of the reasons. If anyone will say, "I could never do something like that, under any circumstances, ill or not," you do not understand the nature of mental illness.

She has shown she cannot function and she is a threat to others. It sounds like she should be off to the bin...whichever bin is most appropriate is up to the authorities after a careful examination of the specific situation. Similiarly, my sister-in-law's brother has finally been institutionalized for the long haul. We don't even know what he did, and we aren't going to ask. If she wants to tell us, she will. However, it must of been pretty f-ing horrible. However, punishing him won't really do any good; because you don't learn not to listen to your dead mother telling you to do horrible things in your head by being punished. The jail time for the previous arson certainly didn't seem to help.

[DeadBurgerKing (10)]

You know, now that I think of it... I wouldn't call it an 'illness', it'd be better to say it is a 'trait'.

Abusive fathers will raise abusive sons.

Mothers who try and get the wrong attention from men will, in turn, raise daughters who do the same.

It turns an endless cycle.

The comparisons between my siblings and I and the way we were raised are living proof of this....

[Steven]

You know, now that I think of it... I wouldn't call it an 'illness', it'd be better to say it is a 'trait'.

Abusive fathers will raise abusive sons.

Mothers who try and get the wrong attention from men will, in turn, raise daughters who do the same.

It turns an endless cycle.

The comparisons between my siblings and I and the way we were raised are living proof of this....

good post brutha

[BrassFusion]

When I think of 'functioning member of society', I think of someone who would do anything to help society function. Out of observation I think a society that is created around corporatism and social classes will lead to destructive selfishness. I don't see the point in selective awareness and compassion to further self-destructive tendencies. I know that there are a lot of people who disagree with this.. but I strongly believe when you start trying to force hierarchy on people without their consent, you are trying to objectify them. A smart individual knows its not possible to be owned by anyone else, and returns the same respect to those around them. If I had to choose between people or society, I would choose people and discard society, since I see a system that embraces imbalance between ambition and relationships.

Society is made of people, though... a balanced one (most likely a fantasy) makes life better for as many people as possible. Some people are always going to get shafted; it's natural law. Our alternative to society is anarchy, and that would involve a lot more pain and unfairness for a lot more people than any but the most oppressive regimes. Instead of giving up on civilization, you could try to improve it... but it's your right to disengage yourself.

[maeve]

I wanna date a guy with "Restless Wang Syndrome."

Did you see SNL this past week? It had skit about RPS (Restless Penis Syndrome). It was pretty funny. Basically they were justifying a man's wonder lust because he "suffered" from RPS. Therefore the wife should be supportive of his fragile condition and allow to bang who ever he wants. It was kinda humorous.

[BrassFusion]

Did you see SNL this past week? It had skit about RPS (Restless Penis Syndrome). It was pretty funny. Basically they were justifying a man's wonder lust because he "suffered" from RPS. Therefore the wife should be supportive of his fragile condition and allow to bang who ever he wants. It was kinda humorous.

That's it. I'm psychic. Too much synchronicity in the past couple weeks for it all to be accidental.

[Msterbeau]

You know, now that I think of it... I wouldn't call it an 'illness', it'd be better to say it is a 'trait'.

Abusive fathers will raise abusive sons.

Mothers who try and get the wrong attention from men will, in turn, raise daughters who do the same.

It turns an endless cycle.

The comparisons between my siblings and I and the way we were raised are living proof of this....

I wouldn't call it a trait. That would seem to indicate that it's an unalterable genetic thing that you can't ever shake. I don't think that's true. During therapy I learned that we generally do one of two things as we grow up. We take on our parents behavioral patterns or we go 180 degrees the other way. Observations since then have largely confirmed this for me. Of course there are always complications.

[BrassFusion]

It's best to just try to be as awesome as possible.

I love my parents, and we have a great relationship, and there are many things I like about their behavior that I emulate. Some OTHER things, however, I really think I could improve on. Like... I hope to have a better relationship with money than either of them. That's not really working out so far, but well.

[Der Nister]

Mostly - people in todays society just want a label from the medical profession to have an excuse for their poor behavior.

I know someone that claims they are narcoleptic - truth was, they just wanted to stay awake all night. So of course they were tired all day.

Some people are just fucked in the head that way.

[DeadBurgerKing (10)]

I wouldn't call it a trait. That would seem to indicate that it's an unalterable genetic thing that you can't ever shake. I don't think that's true. During therapy I learned that we generally do one of two things as we grow up. We take on our parents behavioral patterns or we go 180 degrees the other way. Observations since then have largely confirmed this for me. Of course there are always complications.

But, couldn't 'behavior patterns' be qualified as 'traits'?

For example, in stressful situations I usually remain calm and say something funny to break the tension. I could say that's a trait I have gained through my years of living and/or a behavior pattern...

Does that make sense? Probably not...oh well...It's PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME!! :peanutbutterjellytime

[sinmantyx]

I generally define a characteristic as an "illness" if it 1) Interferes with someone's day-to-day life 2) is significantly outside the norm and 3) is an element in someone's life that they either cannot control or have significant difficulty controlling.

As far as "making an excuse", it always depends on the specific situation. If I would have let-loose and actually threw the chair *at* my husband, I would not shy away from taking responsibility: as far as feeling like shit about it, taking real steps to prevent it happening again and sincerely apologizing to my husband. However, I have to admit I would certainly explain the circumstances if a judge became involved to put that brash action into context. Heck, if I found my ass on the line, I might certainly ask some sort of expert to explain what may have been the cause for my extreme mood swing. The law would definitely NOT find me somehow "legally insane", and I would most likely be punished or sentenced to some sort of treatment. Now, my sister-in-law's brother IS legally insane and when he is not properly medicated, has no reasonable concept of right and wrong. He just does what the voices in his head tell him to do and it seems "right" to him at the time. Saying he has an "illness" is not a scape-goat tactic, it's just the truth of the matter. Even then, it doesn't "get him off the hook". He is DANGEROUS. He needs to be institutionalized. He should not be in prison however...for two reasons 1) Generally the prison system is not equip to house someone like him (even though they do all the time) and 2) a mental institution isn't required to let you OUT, ever, if THEY decide you are a threat to yourself or others.

As I said, there is nothing wrong with understanding reasons. Reasons should not stop you from taking appropriate action. "Not guilty by reason of insanity" usually just equals a indefinite stay in an institution. In fact, you may "get out" much later than if you are sentenced to a fixed-term prison sentence. If we decided to classify habitual child molesters as "insane" we wouldn't have all these stupid registry laws (that btw, lump actually dangerous people up with those that had sex with their highschool sweethearts before whatever arbitrary age the state decided on, or were stupid/unfortunate enough to have sex with someone lying about their age)...we'd just keep them locked up as long as they are deemed a threat and study them to find out what screw is loose so we could maybe actually TREAT people before they offend. But no, we have to put them in prison, where they are generally abused horribly by the other inmates and then after they are even MORE screwed up, put them out on the street with no where to live and no means to support themselves, to be further abused by the public (despite the actually nature of the offense) because they are on some public list of pariahs.

It should not be socially unacceptible to be "ill". That just forces people to go underground and never seek help. What should be socially unacceptible is for individuals and the family of individuals to avoid taking appropriate action (whatever that may be...from simply talking through it, to changing your diet and sleep routine, to therapy, to drugs, to being institutionalized) when behavior significantly adversely impacts your own life or those around you.

I guess in some ways I have more sympathy for extreme cases. If someone has gotten so far down, it is easy to judge them for allowing the "slide" in the first place. However, it's generally more difficult to answer the question, "What should they do now?"

[sinmantyx]

Mostly - people in todays society just want a label from the medical profession to have an excuse for their poor behavior.

I know someone that claims they are narcoleptic - truth was, they just wanted to stay awake all night. So of course they were tired all day.

Some people are just fucked in the head that way.

Not taking responsiblity IS the illness. Everyone I have talked to that deals with criminals has mentioned a number of individuals who have EXTREMELY low "agency". In other words, these people have no concept that their actions have consequences or that they have any control over their lives. They have the world-view that they are like a leaf in the wind and where they land or how they fly has nothing to do with choices. They lack basic reasoning ability and can't connect cause and effect in their brains. They lack introspection. I presume that sometimes they don't have the type of "filters" that most people develop, and instead act on their instinct as some sort of non-negotiable force. They blame circumstances and other people, refusing to acknowledge their own power.

I totally agree. It is easy for someone to diagnose themselves with some sort of pathology, just to enable the real cause of their problems...the real pathology that may take real effort to overcome.

[DeadBurgerKing (10)]

But, this raises the question: "What is considered 'normal'?" Which is a completly opinion oreintated answer.

Not to justify child abusers, far from it, but what if they don't realize what they are doing is 'wrong'? Being as they were more than likely raised by abusive parents, they may view it as 'normal' parenting. Which is horrible to think about.

I think an 'illness' is something that's physically wrong with ones body. Such as certain chemicals aren't getting to your brain which may lead to depression. (Not sure if that's correct, but I'm using it as an example.)Depression can be considered an 'illness'.

Versus

Being raised by abusive parents and brought up to think that beating your children is the 'right' way to raise them. Under those circumstance you are TAUGHT that abuse is what needs to be done to be a proper parent. Thus not being an 'illness', but a 'trait' or 'behavior pattern'.

[Steven]

But, this raises the question: "What is considered 'normal'?" Which is a completly opinion oreintated answer.

Not to justify child abusers, far from it, but what if they don't realize what they are doing is 'wrong'? Being as they were more than likely raised by abusive parents, they may view it as 'normal' parenting. Which is horrible to think about.

I think an 'illness' is something that's physically wrong with ones body. Such as certain chemicals aren't getting to your brain which may lead to depression. (Not sure if that's correct, but I'm using it as an example.)Depression can be considered an 'illness'.

Versus

Being raised by abusive parents and brought up to think that beating your children is the 'right' way to raise them. Under those circumstance you are TAUGHT that abuse is what needs to be done to be a proper parent. Thus not being an 'illness', but a 'trait' or 'behavior pattern'.

My response to this:

My father was severly abused as a child. His father beat him with a chain.

I was severly abused as a child. My father beat me with a 2x4 that he carved a handle in, as well as various garden instruments, rope, hoses, his fists, whategver was around. He also slugged me in the face when I was less than 6. He has kicked me across the room like a football. he has thrown chairs on me and my brothers. I learned to hide bruises when i was very young.

All of it, I remember.

All of it, he remembers. I know that he also remembers his childhood, because he will not discuss it.

One of our "issues" between us, is that he remembers, and yet still chose to repeat this behaviour with very small children. to strike a man because you are unstable is one thing. To wound a child is another.

in his defense, I had a violent past as a young adult. I had some "issues" that would manifest that he handed off to me. But I also ran in certain circles. No one that I ever clashed with was innocent, or small, or defensless, in fact most of them were pros. And even that, had to change, I had to change and own my own decisions.

you choose. nobody is without the power of choice.