Gothy Stereotypes Ever Bug You?

[sinmantyx]

A long time ago, I was chatting with someone on okcupid. I do this every once in a while.

The reason I think of this is that I recently came back to this board to have some great intelligent and varied conversations; and I'm always struck by how thoughtful and how divergent the views of others on this board are...even though we all (in some respect or another) identify with this whole "gothic" thing.

This guy had the idea that the "gothy types" were somehow stuck in their adolescence, had unresolved self-identity issues and were basically cartoons. This man is not here to defend himself (however hilarious that would be). I tried to explain to him that the "gothy types" of the 80's have certainly grown into adulthood like everyone else; and in my experience those people actually tended to have more fruitful personal and professional lives than many other particular "groups" that happened to spring up. I said that a common theme amongst us was not crazy conformist fandom, but introspection and creativity (sometimes expressed in really bad poetry). He accused me and those I have met of being some sort of bizarre exception. I had to admit that I was bias, but I certainly wanted him to admit he was clueless.

I guess I'm wondering how often this sort of negative conception comes up.

[phee]

It's been my experience that with any subculture the only people who can successfully judge it are those whom are (more or less) part of it... I have a lip ring and wear black as well as liking industrial music... so by default I have had a lot of this subculture experience... On the other side of the coin, most people who are outside the subculture have a very strange perception based on unreliable sources (media, there cousins daughters friend, etc...) The problem is that most "new recrutes" to a subculture either enter from friends and others they know... or they like what they see on TV and want to be like that... So the subculture ends up having an odd (and sometimes segrageted) blend of people... You have been to goth clubs... you see both, some people are very clown like and seem to be stuck in an age 15... and some people who seem to be depressed, overdressed and think too much... and then all of us in between.

I will go on later...

[BrassFusion]

Hell. Maybe we really AREN'T goths after all, like Joey Deadcat has said. =)

OK. No offense to poor Joey out there, but I tend to believe that the people who do the most damage to any single subculture are those who are the most insular. Keeping people out of "your scene" is the best way to give them negative misconceptions... and I've known several insular goths, some of whom think I belong, some who do not. I think the whole thing's kinda sad. =(

[Scary Guy]

Hell. Maybe we really AREN'T goths after all, like Joey Deadcat has said. =)

OK. No offense to poor Joey out there, but I tend to believe that the people who do the most damage to any single subculture are those who are the most insular. Keeping people out of "your scene" is the best way to give them negative misconceptions... and I've known several insular goths, some of whom think I belong, some who do not. I think the whole thing's kinda sad. =(

But it would be a horrendous thing if goth music actually got popular. This is our overculture, and when idiots enter into it, that kind of takes away from it a bit.

[BrassFusion]

But it would be a horrendous thing if goth music actually got popular. This is our overculture, and when idiots enter into it, that kind of takes away from it a bit.

Every subculture is already awash with idiots. What's the difference?

[Scales]

First off, I do consider myself depressed, and I think too much; but I don't usually overdress because of my amazing skill with the first two. I am however, working on it, and its a very progressive endeavour involving an intense amount of desire to permeate my psychosis into the threshold of existence... (the overdressing part).

A lot of people have chosen in believing its possible to be stuck in adolescence. Phrases like "the real world" and "grow up" ect.. are often used in conveying that something, if disproved, would shatter the individual living by it. Responsibility, humility, loyalty, honesty, compassion, these things come with experience, age can bypass these things completely. Nobody stops growing, and the world is always as real as its going to get.

I think being stereotypical is a necessary part of our sociology. But negative conceptions are just part of criticism coming from experience and awareness. Its possible to be aware of the positive aspects of anything as much as the negative, its up to every individual to make that choice. Ignorance has a rippling effect like everything else, reaction to action goes beyond physical science, it doesn't just stop.

Which brings me to one of the reasons I rarely voice my opinion, I'm already aware it can be contradicted. I've read through enough debates on endless boards to know how quickly I can be waisting time with questions I'd be better off asking myself.

He probably saw some people from the gothic subculture, and started asking questions. The only things we as living things can love are the things we understand. He didn't feel he completely understood the subculture, so for the sake of simplification and a quick answer, he made a negative assumption. Then that assumption rippled back to his judgement and awareness.

Usually stereotypes don't bug me. But they can become a source of frustration for anyone who gets tagged with them if they are seen as misinformed, and 'misinformed' is perpetuated with definitions that are created to be negative.

[Scary Guy]

Every subculture is already awash with idiots. What's the difference?

I tend to think of this one as a tad bit better than the rest because of the intelligence level of the people in it (for example the artsy/intellectual types rather than the piece of graver trash that just latches on because they want to piss off their parents). The post above this one is a good example of the former. However to explain it in the readers digest version it's as simple as this. People fear what they don't understand. This fear quickly turns to hate as a defense mechanism. Destroy it, make it go away, to make life the way we think it should be once again. The Dead Milkmen wrote a great song about it called "Tiny Town" (which was written about punks but apples here as well).

Earlier in the night a really drunk waitress (who was off the clock) came up and actually admitted she was a dumb hick (trying to be funny) and actually asked me (because I was so obviously the leader of the group) what "gothic" was. I then proceeded to inform her that true goths will never admit that they're goth and then cited The Sisters of Mercy's Andrew Eldritch as an example (this was while I was eating and I had "This Corrosion" playing to give me time to do so as it's almost 11 minutes long). She smiled and stumbled away and I proceeded to finish my meal.

Being gothic isn't about how you look on the outside but who you are on the inside. It's a certain mindset and attitude.

However, stereotypes exist for a reason, which is we as humans like to categorize things and put them into little boxes with labels on them and understand what makes this different from that and how it relates to things of the same category and what makes that category different from the other category. Stereotypes aren't a bad thing because they tell us what we like and what we don't like. I don't like idiots so I have two categories which are "Intelligent people" and "walking colostomy bags" (or insert your own negative definition here). Then I like a certain type of music (more than most) so I break down another group into "goths" and "'normal' people". This opens up a small chart. Stupid jocks, frat boys, etc... need to be shot and used as fertilizer (or just shot into the sun as to not contaminate the food supply). Smart normal people and stupid goths at least have something good about them. Smart goths are the apex and I like them the most as they don't give me a migraine when speaking to them and we also have a lot in common.

But how are stereotypes formed of say specific cultures like "african americans don't work", "mexicans are lazy", "the irish are drunks", "homosexuals are great at interior design", and "goths worship satan" (not saying these are true, just citing examples). Well idiots (lets call them that because they are) see a specific pattern in behavior and attach that action with a group of people. The action is either thought of as a good action or a bad action and thus when attached to the group of people they're either thought of as good or bad, favorable or unfavorable.

So if society has a negative stigma towards goths it's only because we've brought it upon ourselves. A lot of people in the overculture blame people like Marylin Manson for this. I think he's got a lot of great ideas that I do agree with, however I don't agree with how he's putting them across. No I believe that the idiots (lets call them "Mansonites") give the overculture a bad name, bad imagery, and create the negative stereotype.

[BrassFusion]

"Stereotypes aren't a bad thing because they tell us what we like and what we don't like"???

You can do better than that.

And off the record: I don't see how stereotyping "jocks" or "frat boys" or any juvenile clique-type group is different than stereotyping blacks or homos or goths or the irish or emos or mexicans or whiggers or (insert label here). One of the coolest people I know was a "jock" when we were in high school together. I'd have been a "jock" myself if I was capable. And I WAS the president of my chapter of a professional frat.

But back to "jocks..." do you have something against physical activity because you're jealous, or something?

[JaneDead]

"Gothy Stereotypes Ever Bug You?"

--all stereotypes bug me

[Fierce Critter]

The only stereotype of "gothness" that bothers me is the misconception that if you're are goth or punk, you are automatically a sexual deviant, and in particular, into S&M and B&D.

I hate that.

[phee]

The only stereotype of "gothness" that bothers me is the misconception that if you're are goth or punk, you are automatically a sexual deviant, and in particular, into S&M and B&D.

I hate that.

amuzingly enough, it's that very perception that brings a lot of people to the subculture

[Joey Deadcat]

Man, more and more I'm grateful for the existence of deathrock(not death metal; y'all can just cease those devil-horn gestures, ya baggy-pants-wearing juggalo metalheads).

[Onyx]

*sigh*

Sometimes I just get sick to death of everyone being expected to be politically correct all the damn time. Sometimes I *like* the way certain people react to me.

Maybe it's because people are surprised I still like to go out and have fun *myself* rather than live my life through my kids, or maybe it's because I live right in the middle of picket-fence hell, and I like making closed-minded ultra-conservative people a little uncomfortable. Sometimes I just want to jump out of the bushes in full goth mode and shout BOO at them. Ugh. I hate west Michigan.

Back to the subject though - what is the difference between a defining characteristic of a particular group and a stereotype? Most stereotypes have at least some basis in fact.

Gothy things are fun, and fun to poke fun at. I suppose it's not appropriate to poke fun unless you are a part of the group you are poking fun toward?

[Scary Guy]

"Stereotypes aren't a bad thing because they tell us what we like and what we don't like"???

You can do better than that.

And off the record: I don't see how stereotyping "jocks" or "frat boys" or any juvenile clique-type group is different than stereotyping blacks or homos or goths or the irish or emos or mexicans or whiggers or (insert label here). One of the coolest people I know was a "jock" when we were in high school together. I'd have been a "jock" myself if I was capable. And I WAS the president of my chapter of a professional frat.

But back to "jocks..." do you have something against physical activity because you're jealous, or something?

There is only one different on the first part. People can't change their ethnicity, but people can change what they're into as far as cultures/subcultures to adapt to fit in better (if they choose to). This is why they can still discriminate against having too many piercings/tattoos/odd or multi colored hair/etc..

As far as my stereotype against frat boys and jocks (mostly jocks) I got picked on in school a lot. Fuck those underdeveloped low-browed retards who picked on me just because I was different. I wouldn't have a problem with them if they weren't idiots which fits into both categories of what I hate.

[BrassFusion]

Gothy things are fun, and fun to poke fun at. I suppose it's not appropriate to poke fun unless you are a part of the group you are poking fun toward?

That helps give stereotype-based humor an element of bizarreness, which makes it funnier; and the funnier you are, the more you can get away with.

Like... stereotyping "emos." To me, it's generally lame and stupid, but HopeIsEmo.com, for example, is FUNNY. And it's not overly cruel in the bargain.

[BrassFusion]

There is only one different on the first part. People can't change their ethnicity, but people can change what they're into as far as cultures/subcultures to adapt to fit in better (if they choose to). This is why they can still discriminate against having too many piercings/tattoos/odd or multi colored hair/etc..

As far as my stereotype against frat boys and jocks (mostly jocks) I got picked on in school a lot. Fuck those underdeveloped low-browed retards who picked on me just because I was different. I wouldn't have a problem with them if they weren't idiots which fits into both categories of what I hate.

Now you're stereotyping that all jocks are bullies?

[Scary Guy]

Now you're stereotyping that all jocks are bullies?

Just most of the ones I've interacted with, which has set in my mind that they are. But hey, they started it.

Another good example are the police. I generally have no problem with them until they give me one. Some people just hate them pigs though (and I do too when they're crooked cops).

Sure there are always exceptions to the rule, but the rule exists for a reason.

[BrassFusion]

Just most of the ones I've interacted with, which has set in my mind that they are. But hey, they started it.

Another good example are the police. I generally have no problem with them until they give me one. Some people just hate them pigs though (and I do too when they're crooked cops).

Sure there are always exceptions to the rule, but the rule exists for a reason.

That's why I hate black people. They're all criminals.

/sarcasm

[sinmantyx]

You'll have to excuse my language here as I make a point:

I have ever heard one of the following:

"I don't hate blacks, but I hate niggers."

"I don't hate gays, but I hate faggots."

"I don't hate overweight women, but I hate fat chicks."

"I don't hate athletes, but I hate jocks."

.

.

.

People redefine the slur to mean "the people in that group that I happen to hate" all the time. It's not healthy. It's also meaningless. It reminds me of the phrase, "I don't hate erotica, but I hate pornography."

So, those that say they hate jocks are really just saying that they hate the "jocks" that happen to also be misogynistic small-minded bullies.

In my old age, I have realized that the reason I *personally* got teased as a child was not because I was overweight (which I wasn't as overweight as I thought I was - I just had a self-image problem) or "different". I was teased because I was smart. That made other people feel bad about themselves. I didn't have to work as hard as they did at school (as far as they could tell). I was naturally good at art and music; and the teachers (for the most part) enjoyed my attitude. I was also self-righteous (still am).

So, when the athletes are getting a steady stream of "you're a dumb jock" -- THEY lash out because of their own self-esteem problems. Just like I would insult people because they couldn't do math and struggled with subjects I found intuitive (without even realizing it half the time); they felt the need to boost their ego in a similiar way...just now it was about how fat I was or that I wore funny clothes.

I do see a difference between stereotypes about unchangeable aspects of the self and changeable aspects of the self: but a lot of the time, the results are the same. You're just simply being unfair and making assumptions about someone that may or may not be true. If you are also unwilling to change your mind based on new information because of some sort of misplaced anger; then you are "as bad" as those that dismiss you as a cartoon of a subculture and not a complex human being.

[BrassFusion]

you and i are way too similar... it's creepy...

[Steven]

I dont hate smart people, I hate brainiacs.

(I jest)

[BrassFusion]

i don't hate mexican-americans, i hate beaners

(i love you, steven...)

[sinmantyx]

I dont hate smart people, I hate brainiacs.

(I jest)

:doh

[Homicidalheathen]

Honestly I only wear black because I am a slob. I would otherwise go through clothes like crazy because of food and soil stains.

Oh and I am always cold...and black draws and holds in heat. Especially nylon.

Now if I could just get rid of the white pet hair.

Oh and I have black hair because it goes best with my skin tone...

I have always loved grave yards and dark sounding music...

I don't know why that makes me goth but I guess it does?

Oh and I have a fasincation with crime and serial killers.

I didn't even know I was goth until someone pointed it out to me. I am just me. I don't care much for Marilyn Manson...and at the time thats what I thought a goth was so I was kinda surprised.

[Brenda Starrr]

While I technically don't look goth, I fit in best with goths because I never really did fit in anywhere else. I was never a jock, never preppy, never all that trendy. I wear black a lot because of my part-time (Mon-Wed) job. It's our uniform. At the salon, I can wear whatever I want. Just no jeans. I was wearing black polish LONG before black polish was cool. I loved skulls WAY before most people thought of it as fashion. As far as I'm concerned, most everyone else who has only just begun wearing it stole it from us. But boy, does it look stupid with a Louis Vuitton bag.

The stereotypes DO bug me. Do we worship Satan because we wear all black? Not necessarily. Are we ungoth because we might listen to something other than what we hear at City Club outside of said venue? I don't believe so. Are we all depressed and on meds? NO. We're just a bunch of people who seem to just fit here because we didn't seem to fit anywhere else. So what if we love graveyards. If a so-called "normal person" went to a graveyard with an open mind and open eyes, they might just see the true beauty of the old-school headstones. It's ART.

Sorry if I'm rambling or not making sense to anyone. I'm sleepy and have been cleaning.

Fumes.....