Just A Thought.....

[Steven]

WOULDN'T IT BE GREAT TO TURN ON THE TV AND HEAR ANY U.S. PRESIDENT, DEMOCRAT OR REPUBLICAN GIVE THE FOLLOWING SPEECH?

My Fellow Americans: As you all know, the defeat of Iraq regime has been completed.

Since congress does not want to spend any more money on this war, our mission in Iraq is complete.

This morning I gave the order for a complete removal of all American forces from Iraq . This action will be complete within 30 days. It is now to begin the reckoning.

Before me, I have two lists. One list contains the names of countries which have stood by our side during the Iraq conflict. This list is short. The United Kingdom , Spain , Bulgaria , Australia , and Poland are some of the countries listed there.

The other list contains everyone not on the first list. Most of the world's nations are on that list. My press secretary will be distributing copies of both lists later this evening.

Let me start by saying that effective immediately, foreign aid to those nations on List 2 ceases immediately and indefinitely. The money saved during the first year alone will pretty much pay for the costs of the Iraqi war.

The American people are no longer going to pour money into third world Hell-holes and watch those government leaders grow fat on corruption.

Need help with a famine? Wrestling with an epidemic? Call France .

In the future, together with Congress, I will work to redirect this money toward solving the vexing social problems we still have at home. On that note, a word to terrorist organizations. Screw with us and we will hunt you down and eliminate you and all your friends from the face of the earth.

Thirsting for a gutsy country to terrorize? Try France , or maybe China

I am ordering the immediate severing of diplomatic relations with France , Germany , and Russia .. Thanks for all your help, comrades. We are retiring from NATO as well. Bon chance, mes amis.

I have instructed the Mayor of New York City to begin towing the many UN diplomatic vehicles located in Manhattan with more than two unpaid parking tickets to sites where those vehicles will be stripped, shredded and crushed. I don't care about whatever treaty pertains to this. You creeps have tens of thousands of unpaid tickets. Pay those tickets tomorrow or watch your precious Benzes, Beamers and limos be turned over to some of the finest chop shops in the world. I love New York

A special note to our neighbors. Canada is on List 2. Since we are likely to be seeing a lot more of each other, you folks might want to try not pissing us off for a change.

Mexico is also on List 2. President Fox and his entire corrupt government really need an attitude adjustment. I will have a couple extra tank and infantry divisions sitting around. Guess where I am going to put em? Yep, border security. So start doing something with your oil.

Oh, by the way, the United States is abrogating the NAFTA treaty - starting now.

We are tired of the one-way highway. Immediately, we'll be drilling for oil in Alaska - which will take care of this country's oil needs for decades to come. If you're an environmentalist who opposes this decision, I refer you to List 2 above: pick a country and move there. They care.

It is time for America to focus on its own welfare and its own citizens. Some will accuse us of isolationism. I answer them by saying, "darn tootin."

Nearly a century of trying to help folks live a decent life around the world has only earned us the undying enmity of just about everyone on the planet. It is time to eliminate hunger in America .. It is time to eliminate homelessness in America . It is time to eliminate World Cup Soccer from America .. To the nations on List 1, a final thought. Thanks guys. We owe you and we won't forget. To the nations on List 2, a final t hought: You might want to learn to speak Arabic. God bless America .. Thank you and good night.

If you can read this, thank a teacher.

If you are reading it in English, thank a soldier.

(Please forward this to at least ten friends and see what happens! Let's get this to every USA computer!)

[Head Wreck]

soory, on the alaska fronnt that pissed me off. theres one planet, were all on it, untill theres another planet i can go we still share the air we breathe

and by the way ol chap. thank a white slave owner that didnt want to stop trading slaves that your reading that in bastardised english while we were fighting from keeping you all from speaking french and going to ballet lessons instead of favoured sports, and dare i offend the frothy-femenists, unshaven women (sorry, i was brought up to treat all sexes equal but if i just kicked back, farting every 2 seconds and belching you'd all complain)

[BrassFusion]

If our current regime gave shit #1 about the American people, there would have been no war in Iraq.

This is typical right-wing diversionary propaganda. Divisive bullshit. You can instruct dissidents to "move to France," but you and your constitution would be fucked without us.

Love ya, Steven, but put some glasses on.

[BrassFusion]

and by the way ol chap. thank a white slave owner that didnt want to stop trading slaves that your reading that in bastardised english while we were fighting from keeping you all from speaking french

Hah. Fuck yeah.

(i didn't quote the last part cuz it seemed to stray from the point )

[Steven]

this is excellent.

more people, more....c'mon

[Head Wreck]

i quite like france

[sass_in_the_pants]

i quite like france

I, too, like France. More so if there weren't so damn many French people there.

When I lived there they were all like 'You can't REALLY be an American. We actually like you.'

Yeah, yeah, right back atchya ya cheese eating surrender monkeys.

[Head Wreck]

only thing i remember was how much better the lifestyle over there seemed, and how polite some folk were, and how rude others were, there was no middling ground on manners.

couldnt resist adding that

[Msterbeau]

Dumbest thing ever.

[pomba gira]

What a load of idiotic nonsense. Certainly America supplies various forms of aid to other countries, but you would be surprised at just how much capital other countries have invested in us. If we were to do that, they would retaliate by withdrawing their investments. Since foreign investment is a huge factor in our nation's gross domestic product and fully two thirds of the GDP goes into employment wages for US citizens, and especially if all this were to be done in a span of a month, the result would be financial ruin for America.

What the fuck are you thinking?

If you are reading this, thank me for knocking sense into you.

If sense has not been knocked into you, thank the administration.

thank you

simplistic revenge fantasies are all very nice & gratifying (especially when they don't involve any major change in one's own standard of living), but unfortunately the real world doesn't work that way.

[Steven]

If our current regime gave shit #1 about the American people, there would have been no war in Iraq.

This is typical right-wing diversionary propaganda. Divisive bullshit. You can instruct dissidents to "move to France," but you and your constitution would be fucked without us.

Love ya, Steven, but put some glasses on.

Wait a minute Babe, I didint write this, I got it in my email from my Boss.

and I thought it was rather clever. still do.

and I thought it would be good to post and discuss, especially since things have been so hacked and non functional at DGN lately. So I did.

you made a good point about this "regime" not caring about it's citizens.

I dont think we need a war (or a lack thereof) to exemplify this point, and I DID recognize the shift of focus from our current situation back to the motherland itself as if the war is what has prevented Mother America from nurturing her children.

But we do have rampant hunger in this nation.

And many depserate people and behaviours.

and a growing rift in financial classes.

But I dont think this diversionary practice is really just a tactic soley of the right. I don't think you really do either. And did you really not see a humerous twist on the writing as a whole? I dont know where this thing started. I did sorta figure however, that there would be a great AHA! after it made the rounds and especially if I posted it here. Notice how quickly the charges of "Isolationism" were brought up as a pun - but the truth is, we're EXACTLY like that, we WOULD make those kinds of charges even in light of something seemingly appropriate.

I would however, love to sew up the hemmorages with our borders with tanks and troops. Absolutely.

And I agree with the "call France" idea.

[sinmantyx]

But we do have rampant hunger in this nation.

And many depserate people and behaviours.

and a growing rift in financial classes.

I think the current administration rolling back the progress of labor movements and refusing to insist on labor-rights stipulations in trade agreements is a good culprit if you need one. Cutting off foreign aid if other countries don't following us off a cliff - supporting an incompetently managed war that had very little to do with terrorism (unlike the Afghanistan conflict) - is not reasonable.

The e-mail-forward is not clever: It's stupidity in a dirty T-shirt with "I'm witty" on it written in magic marker. It's that type of arrogant dismissive ignorance that is squandering the hard work of good people: like soldiers and teachers.

It reminds me of what's happening in Iran right now. Everyone with half a degree in economics agrees that the Iranian president is trying to spear-head economic policies without knowing shit about how economics works: So --- his plan to infuse the economy with oil-money is causing rampant inflation and unemployment. That's what happens when presidents won't listen to teachers. The Iraqi war is what happens when presidents won't listen to soldiers.

[sinmantyx]

Need help with a famine? Wrestling with an epidemic? Call France .

I wonder if the author of this shit had a "list 3" that included ALL the countries that offered substantial aid to the U.S. after the 9/11 attacks and the Katrina disaster? I guess we should say "fuck you" to them too? I suppose so, since Mexico was on it's "fuck you" list.

It probably never occurred to this arrogant numb-nut that other countries help us occasionally, we barely pay our dues, and our percentage of foreign aid is minimal compared to many other countries. The author also implies that most foreign aid is squandered by the corrupt...as if the U.S. couldn't possibly have trouble with corruption when it spends it's money domestically.

LOOK at the numbers after the Tsunami: comparatively the U.S. government threw them the change in our pocket.

What is good for the world is good for us. Economically strong, secure, and open neighbors are good neighbors. If you really want to breed criminals: take away their livelihood, keep them in fear, and refuse to understand or talk to them...and make damn sure you're a smug asshole while doing it. The world is inter-dependent...becoming isolationist is like an organ deciding to live outside the body.

[Blackmail]

I think the current administration rolling back the progress of labor movements and refusing to insist on labor-rights stipulations in trade agreements is a good culprit if you need one. Cutting off foreign aid if other countries don't following us off a cliff - supporting an incompetently managed war that had very little to do with terrorism (unlike the Afghanistan conflict) - is not reasonable.

The e-mail-forward is not clever: It's stupidity in a dirty T-shirt with "I'm witty" on it written in magic marker. It's that type of arrogant dismissive ignorance that is squandering the hard work of good people: like soldiers and teachers.

It reminds me of what's happening in Iran right now. Everyone with half a degree in economics agrees that the Iranian president is trying to spear-head economic policies without knowing shit about how economics works: So --- his plan to infuse the economy with oil-money is causing rampant inflation and unemployment. That's what happens when presidents won't listen to teachers. The Iraqi war is what happens when presidents won't listen to soldiers.

I have a degree in economics.

As for Labor, Bush put a tariff on steel to protect American steel workers a few years back. Bush's tax cuts have spurred economic growth and cut unemployment. The war is stupid and pointless but so was Clinton's push for NAFTA which hurt the American worker far more than anything Bush has done.

By the way, I don't know any economist that agree with your politics.

[Blackmail]

I wonder if the author of this shit had a "list 3" that included ALL the countries that offered substantial aid to the U.S. after the 9/11 attacks and the Katrina disaster? I guess we should say "fuck you" to them too? I suppose so, since Mexico was on it's "fuck you" list.

It probably never occurred to this arrogant numb-nut that other countries help us occasionally, we barely pay our dues, and our percentage of foreign aid is minimal compared to many other countries. The author also implies that most foreign aid is squandered by the corrupt...as if the U.S. couldn't possibly have trouble with corruption when it spends it's money domestically.

LOOK at the numbers after the Tsunami: comparatively the U.S. government threw them the change in our pocket.

What is good for the world is good for us. Economically strong, secure, and open neighbors are good neighbors. If you really want to breed criminals: take away their livelihood, keep them in fear, and refuse to understand or talk to them...and make damn sure you're a smug asshole while doing it. The world is inter-dependent...becoming isolationist is like an organ deciding to live outside the body.

The US gives the most aid of any country in the world. Only when you factor in % of GDP can you make an argument that others give more, and when you factor in Military technology we give out, it's not even close.

Isolationism has become popular amongst anti-free traders because well, globalization has hurt the US, this is a fact, we are running a huge trade deficit. And Mexico's problems should be Mexico's problems.

[Blackmail]

WOULDN'T IT BE GREAT TO TURN ON THE TV AND HEAR ANY U.S. PRESIDENT, DEMOCRAT OR REPUBLICAN GIVE THE FOLLOWING SPEECH?

My Fellow Americans: As you all know, the defeat of Iraq regime has been completed.

Since congress does not want to spend any more money on this war, our mission in Iraq is complete.

This morning I gave the order for a complete removal of all American forces from Iraq . This action will be complete within 30 days. It is now to begin the reckoning.

Before me, I have two lists. One list contains the names of countries which have stood by our side during the Iraq conflict. This list is short. The United Kingdom , Spain , Bulgaria , Australia , and Poland are some of the countries listed there.

The other list contains everyone not on the first list. Most of the world's nations are on that list. My press secretary will be distributing copies of both lists later this evening.

Let me start by saying that effective immediately, foreign aid to those nations on List 2 ceases immediately and indefinitely. The money saved during the first year alone will pretty much pay for the costs of the Iraqi war.

The American people are no longer going to pour money into third world Hell-holes and watch those government leaders grow fat on corruption.

Need help with a famine? Wrestling with an epidemic? Call France .

In the future, together with Congress, I will work to redirect this money toward solving the vexing social problems we still have at home. On that note, a word to terrorist organizations. Screw with us and we will hunt you down and eliminate you and all your friends from the face of the earth.

Thirsting for a gutsy country to terrorize? Try France , or maybe China

I am ordering the immediate severing of diplomatic relations with France , Germany , and Russia .. Thanks for all your help, comrades. We are retiring from NATO as well. Bon chance, mes amis.

I have instructed the Mayor of New York City to begin towing the many UN diplomatic vehicles located in Manhattan with more than two unpaid parking tickets to sites where those vehicles will be stripped, shredded and crushed. I don't care about whatever treaty pertains to this. You creeps have tens of thousands of unpaid tickets. Pay those tickets tomorrow or watch your precious Benzes, Beamers and limos be turned over to some of the finest chop shops in the world. I love New York

A special note to our neighbors. Canada is on List 2. Since we are likely to be seeing a lot more of each other, you folks might want to try not pissing us off for a change.

Mexico is also on List 2. President Fox and his entire corrupt government really need an attitude adjustment. I will have a couple extra tank and infantry divisions sitting around. Guess where I am going to put em? Yep, border security. So start doing something with your oil.

Oh, by the way, the United States is abrogating the NAFTA treaty - starting now.

We are tired of the one-way highway. Immediately, we'll be drilling for oil in Alaska - which will take care of this country's oil needs for decades to come. If you're an environmentalist who opposes this decision, I refer you to List 2 above: pick a country and move there. They care.

It is time for America to focus on its own welfare and its own citizens. Some will accuse us of isolationism. I answer them by saying, "darn tootin."

Nearly a century of trying to help folks live a decent life around the world has only earned us the undying enmity of just about everyone on the planet. It is time to eliminate hunger in America .. It is time to eliminate homelessness in America . It is time to eliminate World Cup Soccer from America .. To the nations on List 1, a final thought. Thanks guys. We owe you and we won't forget. To the nations on List 2, a final t hought: You might want to learn to speak Arabic. God bless America .. Thank you and good night.

If you can read this, thank a teacher.

If you are reading it in English, thank a soldier.

(Please forward this to at least ten friends and see what happens! Let's get this to every USA computer!)

Well this would be interesting if it wasn't so sloppily written (like some of my posts when it's late ) and didn't feature all the crap about Iraq.

Steven if you want to read similar views to this I would suggest looking into Michael Badnarik, he makes some of the same points in a much more intelligent manner, without some of the hyperbole.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Badnarik

[Blackmail]

Wait a minute Babe, I didint write this, I got it in my email from my Boss.

and I thought it was rather clever. still do.

and I thought it would be good to post and discuss, especially since things have been so hacked and non functional at DGN lately. So I did.

you made a good point about this "regime" not caring about it's citizens.

I dont think we need a war (or a lack thereof) to exemplify this point, and I DID recognize the shift of focus from our current situation back to the motherland itself as if the war is what has prevented Mother America from nurturing her children.

But we do have rampant hunger in this nation.

And many depserate people and behaviours.

and a growing rift in financial classes.

But I dont think this diversionary practice is really just a tactic soley of the right. I don't think you really do either. And did you really not see a humerous twist on the writing as a whole? I dont know where this thing started. I did sorta figure however, that there would be a great AHA! after it made the rounds and especially if I posted it here. Notice how quickly the charges of "Isolationism" were brought up as a pun - but the truth is, we're EXACTLY like that, we WOULD make those kinds of charges even in light of something seemingly appropriate.

I would however, love to sew up the hemmorages with our borders with tanks and troops. Absolutely.

And I agree with the "call France" idea.

After reading and listening to Lou Dobbs of CNN, I am becoming more and more of an isolationist after several years of being a complete free market globalist. Dobbs makes the point with statistics that we aren't able to offer free trade because it isn't fair trade. Our companies can't compete with Mexico and India who pay their workers lower wages. Not just that, many manufacturing jobs have left Michigan and have gone to the Non-Union south. There just isn't a level playing field. If the UN would mandate some sort of global wage law, then we can talk about fair trade.

By the way, anyone who has showtime should check out Penn and Teller's "Bullshit" - the latest episode is about Walmart. THey make the same point that the Wall Street Journal makes, Walmart is good for the economy. I think I am getting too far from the point so I'll stop now.

[Steven]

Well this would be interesting if it wasn't so sloppily written (like some of my posts when it's late ) and didn't feature all the crap about Iraq.

Steven if you want to read similar views to this I would suggest looking into Michael Badnarik, he makes some of the same points in a much more intelligent manner, without some of the hyperbole.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Badnarik

to be honest with you Bro a whole thirteen seconds of forethought went into my cutting and pasting this onto DGN - I knew it would start a self righteous finger pointing riot.

to be fair there have been soem good arguments back and forth.

And St. Massy I think it's clever because it's doing exactly what it was intended to do: create an uproar.

We seem to have a tendency to want to laud our personal credentials (degrees and such) or insinuate that only complete idiocy could align itself with such extreme positioning.

there are some things that my undereducated mind agreed with in this cut and paste.

Like .... its time we focus on our own, as we're drowning.

Like .... to make that a central theme will cause further unrest

Like .... fuck France.

And I disagree with some of the statements made about throwing pocket change for assistance - I understand the point but I think we should look at this as a world stage and Blackmail made some good counters to that effect. But I dont even care about the statistics anymore. I care about the fact that as a hardworking honest taxpaying American Veteran (yes St Masy - thank a soldier - thank the ones like Candi Quackenbush who are out there - not old puffed up has been like me, even thought I also paid my dues) I struggle to buy bread and gasoline and have health insurance.

I also think its interesting how easy it is to blame administrations and leaders in a blanket like manner when we get insensed.

[Steven]

and by the way I love Walmart because I can affored to buy shit there.

thats my everyday american reality.

[sinmantyx]

After reading and listening to Lou Dobbs of CNN, I am becoming more and more of an isolationist after several years of being a complete free market globalist. Dobbs makes the point with statistics that we aren't able to offer free trade because it isn't fair trade. Our companies can't compete with Mexico and India who pay their workers lower wages. Not just that, many manufacturing jobs have left Michigan and have gone to the Non-Union south. There just isn't a level playing field. If the UN would mandate some sort of global wage law, then we can talk about fair trade.

By the way, anyone who has showtime should check out Penn and Teller's "Bullshit" - the latest episode is about Walmart. THey make the same point that the Wall Street Journal makes, Walmart is good for the economy. I think I am getting too far from the point so I'll stop now.

Apparently, no economist agrees with your stance, because you just agreed with me. Before Wellstone died, he was a very loud proponent of keeping labor stipulations inside international trade agreements and so were many other democrats. (Those stipulations were removed, and I certainly blame the republicans for that.) So we embarked on free trade without insisting on fair trade...exactly what you just said was the problem.

Also, I would appreciate it if you quit sending me insulting private messages. If you want to call me a "dimwitted idiot" or "ugly", you should be confident enough in the way you conduct yourself to do this publically.

Thanks.

[sinmantyx]

oops...my browser double-posted. Sorry about that.

[sinmantyx]

The US gives the most aid of any country in the world. Only when you factor in % of GDP can you make an argument that others give more, and when you factor in Military technology we give out, it's not even close.

Isolationism has become popular amongst anti-free traders because well, globalization has hurt the US, this is a fact, we are running a huge trade deficit. And Mexico's problems should be Mexico's problems.

Yes, when I compare foreign aid - I think in terms of % GDP. Otherwise, I'm sure a great argument could be made that Haiti is one of the most stingy places on the face of the Earth. The WAY in which we give (as far as the government) is also something to be highly critical about. (Here and here are interesting articles.)

I'm not about to put my foot down and claim that we are horrible for not giving more or giving in a reasonable way. However, our government certainly isn't the philanthopist of the world. Also, using our economic power to bully other countries is obnoxious, and that's EXACTLY what the author of this article is advocating.

Individuals within America however, are known as very generous. We take it upon ourselves to be generous, using non-profit world-wide organizations to facilitate giving - not to mention the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation and others like that. However, the piece was talking about our government's foreign aid relating to natural disasters - not foreign aid designed to arm our friends, destabilize countries that piss us off, etc. There is nothing wrong with helping to arm friends, but that's not the issue here.

[BrassFusion]

Damn, Sinmantyx, he does that to you, too? I thought I was the only one. Now I'm starting to wonder...

anyway, back to the topic...

Well, on your first remark... causing an uproar is not the same as being clever. I could go to Thanksgiving dinner and take a shit on the turkey and it would cause an uproar, but I'd hardly consider myself clever.

And my little brother is a soldier that is due to be shipped off to Iraq in 7 months if all goes to plan. I have had a lot of other soldiers in my family tree as well, so I do know some personally. It is one of the foremost reasons why I am anti-war. (Now before everyone brings up the whole cliched WW2 argument, yes, I believe in the necessity of some wars, but that is not the point.)

And yet... no. I'm not thanking any soldiers unless it is by name. Never the institution in general. I think very few of them stand up from their couch one day after seeing an enlistment commercial and say "I need to make a difference for my country!" and storm out the door, never looking back, with the National Anthem playing boldly in the distance....

No. It is mostly for money, free college, fame, or lack of a better direction in life. I'm not looking down on these people for that by any means. I struggle with the same needs too and would not judge them for taking the soldier route. It's just that the John Wayne, America's boy scout myth needs to die.

very true. the best way to make a difference isn't to become a part within the machine, it's to rewire it from the outside. of course a soldier can become a politician, but it seems like the american people have been voting for draft dodgers lately...

[sinmantyx]

I also think its interesting how easy it is to blame administrations and leaders in a blanket like manner when we get insensed.

Personally, I don't think I'm in that camp. However much I've grown to seriously hate the current administration - now that most of the competent people have resigned in disgust - I'm usually the first person to stand up and mention that "we the people" generally don't have the whole story and that second-guessing policy decisions based on lax evidence and lack of experience in policy matters is just so much pompous arm-chair quarterbacking.

I was one of the few people who bothered to stand up against the majority of the Michigan AFT delegations a year or so ago and explain that we (the AFT-M) as an organization shouldn't be second guessing war-related policy decisions that have NOTHING to do with our area of expertise: education. (It delutes our purpose and compromises our credibility.)

It gets to a point though, that the benefit of the doubt is completely exhausted. This administration has a very bad history of caring about "loyalty" more than expertise or honesty in placing and maintaining staff. So, my comments may be considered "blanket" but that's because I see a systemic problem trickling down from the top; infecting pretty much everything in it's path. I can almost stomach the cabinet reading like an oil industry who's-who; but placing corporate powerhouses in positions of oversight and regulation over their own industries is beyond the pale. Taking the science out of science reports because the evidence doesn't suit certain businesses and ruling that student workers (such as those at private universities and the institutionalized developmentally disabled) do not have basic labor rights; I've slowly begun to believe is just the tip of the ice-berg of a wholistically incredibly corrupt, greedy and incompetent administration.

[Steven]

Well, on your first remark... causing an uproar is not the same as being clever. I could go to Thanksgiving dinner and take a shit on the turkey and it would cause an uproar, but I'd hardly consider myself clever.

And my little brother is a soldier that is due to be shipped off to Iraq in 7 months if all goes to plan. I have had a lot of other soldiers in my family tree as well, so I do know some personally. It is one of the foremost reasons why I am anti-war. (Now before everyone brings up the whole cliched WW2 argument, yes, I believe in the necessity of some wars, but that is not the point.)

And yet... no. I'm not thanking any soldiers unless it is by name. Never the institution in general. I think very few of them stand up from their couch one day after seeing an enlistment commercial and say "I need to make a difference for my country!" and storm out the door, never looking back, with the National Anthem playing boldly in the distance....

No. It is mostly for money, free college, fame, or lack of a better direction in life. I'm not looking down on these people for that by any means. I struggle with the same needs too and would not judge them for taking the soldier route. It's just that the John Wayne, America's boy scout myth needs to die.

I think the turkey shitting example doesent really mesh too well here but I can see where your going and of course I'd tend to disagree with an added footnote that shitting on my turkey would get you a quick ass whooping and not an uproar. An uproar to me, is much more like, a public verbal flogging, which were witnessing here. Which leads me back to that point of view about (it) being clever but really its not that important enough to fight for.

Good luck to your brother.

may i also add that I serisouly doubt you have the sack to kill off John Wayne.

yes its true that many soldiers enslist for various reasons outside of patriotism. But then again I was a soldier. Your not. Along the way, over the course of time, I would venture to say that a sense of national pride does indeed take root. many things take root and a soldier is "made"....and not just because he's wearing the uniform. I'd respect your opposing position much more if you were a soldier, because I'd know you have an intimate first hand experience to draw from.