Just A Thought.....

[Steven]

It gets to a point though, that the benefit of the doubt is completely exhausted. This administration has a very bad history of caring about "loyalty" more than expertise or honesty in placing and maintaining staff. So, my comments may be considered "blanket" but that's because I see a systemic problem trickling down from the top; infecting pretty much everything in it's path. I can almost stomach the cabinet reading like an oil industry who's-who; but placing corporate powerhouses in positions of oversight and regulation over their own industries is beyond the pale. Taking the science out of science reports because the evidence doesn't suit certain businesses and ruling that student workers (such as those at private universities and the institutionalized developmentally disabled) do not have basic labor rights; I've slowly begun to believe is just the tip of the ice-berg of a wholistically incredibly corrupt, greedy and incompetent administration.

this was a good post.

[pomba gira]

yes its true that many soldiers enslist for various reasons outside of patriotism. But then again I was a soldier. Your not. Along the way, over the course of time, I would venture to say that a sense of national pride does indeed take root. many things take root and a soldier is "made"....and not just because he's wearing the uniform. I'd respect your opposing position much more if you were a soldier, because I'd know you have an intimate first hand experience to draw from.

I have a hard time seeing how having been put through a carefully-designed, extended program of conditioning/indoctrination to hold certain attitudes is something that renders a soldier's opinion more valid than anyone else's.

[Steven]

I have a hard time seeing how having been put through a carefully-designed, extended program of conditioning/indoctrination to hold certain attitudes is something that renders a soldier's opinion more valid than anyone else's.

Because your having a hard time grasping at both what I did not say, and what you have not been.

Attitudes and the embracing of doctrine....these thigns are not hammerred into your psyche as much as you may think they are. Soldiers do have the ability to form opinions and think for themselves. They feed themselves, dress themselves, get married, raise children, pay taxes, sweat the bills, etc etc just like you do. In that regard you have common ground. What IS hammerred into a soldier is to respond to the task at hand without hesitation.

But unless you've been a soldier, your opinions as a career civilian on the personal nature of the soldier himself in terms of values and commitments (remember the John Wayne comment) are outside, studied approaches. To me they are clinical. It does not mean you have no validity. But it also does not mean that you have complete clarity. Your ability to verbalize and express your differences however, are rooted in the soldier's duty. I think that has much less value than it once used to have, value that will continue to deteriorate until that right of expression is taken from us.

[BrassFusion]

We're not judging the soldiers negatively, we're judging the administration negatively (well, some of us). We've definitely got the same rights as soldiers to participate in the government of this country, AND we haven't been trained to bow to the demands of authority without question.

[odims_sphere]

And yet... no. I'm not thanking any soldiers unless it is by name. Never the institution in general. I think very few of them stand up from their couch one day after seeing an enlistment commercial and say "I need to make a difference for my country!" and storm out the door, never looking back, with the National Anthem playing boldly in the distance....

No. It is mostly for money, free college, fame, or lack of a better direction in life. I'm not looking down on these people for that by any means. I struggle with the same needs too and would not judge them for taking the soldier route. It's just that the John Wayne, America's boy scout myth needs to die.

I was one. I believed the ad's. I received no bonus for enlisting. I have not used any of my GI bill. I am not famous. However it did give me direction in life, not because I was lacking but rather it gave me the means and confidence to achieve anything I wanted, and I would recommend it to anyone.

It seems that non soldiers think that we follow orders blindly and without question like robots. This is far from the case. Soldiers question their orders all the time, however soldiers are taught the self discipline it follower their orders dispite their questions because if they don't, people die.

Here's an example: I was in charge of a project securing a part of the perimiter at camp Ar Ramadi in Iraq. We were putting up a Hesco wall with double strand concertina on the top. While working we took 3 incoming morters. After making sure no one was hurt I ordered my soldiers to go back to work. They questioned why. They were afraid that more attacks might come. I explained that if we didn't finish the wall that the enemy could penetrate the perimeter and potentially cause a lot more harm.

No matter what the reason a soldier joins there is something instilled in them that no one can understand with out being one. The desire to not let down your fellow soldier even if in doing so you may lose your own life. I think it might be that point is what Steven had in mind when he said

I'd respect your opposing position much more if you were a soldier, because I'd know you have an intimate first hand experience to draw from.

[sinmantyx]

No matter what the reason a soldier joins there is something instilled in them that no one can understand with out being one. The desire to not let down your fellow soldier even if in doing so you may lose your own life. I think it might be that point is what Steven had in mind when he said

I certainly have friends who have been soldiers in the "theater" (or whatever you call a war-zone) and those who have not been in a combat situation. I don't always agree with them about everything - especially politics. I do recognize, however, that (despite reasons) they have currently (or in the past) been in a situation where they may be asked to put themselves at incredible risk; at the request of those that we (in our comfy armchairs, in front of our televisions) have elected.

In some ways, I think they have more right, and a system such as the one described in Star Ship Troopers doesn't really seem that unreasonable to me.

However, as some people pointed out: a soldier is made, a soldier has unique experiences, and a soldier is the only one who understands what it is to be a soldier. Experience and identity certainly influence the way we form opinions and how we act on those stances. That is why we all have the right to express those opinions; and no one group (however deserving) should be deferred to completely.

Even so, I think it is really horrid that anyone would claim to represent ALL soldiers. This perpetuates the MYTH that they have become automatons without their own personal opinions and beliefs; and is a disservice to them. "Support our Troops! Agree with my political stance!" is just not valid, regardless of who is saying it. "Support our Troops! Fund their health-care needs!" is at least reasonable.

[Steven]

I was one. I believed the ad's. I received no bonus for enlisting. I have not used any of my GI bill. I am not famous. However it did give me direction in life, not because I was lacking but rather it gave me the means and confidence to achieve anything I wanted, and I would recommend it to anyone.

It seems that non soldiers think that we follow orders blindly and without question like robots. This is far from the case. Soldiers question their orders all the time, however soldiers are taught the self discipline it follower their orders dispite their questions because if they don't, people die.

Here's an example: I was in charge of a project securing a part of the perimiter at camp Ar Ramadi in Iraq. We were putting up a Hesco wall with double strand concertina on the top. While working we took 3 incoming morters. After making sure no one was hurt I ordered my soldiers to go back to work. They questioned why. They were afraid that more attacks might come. I explained that if we didn't finish the wall that the enemy could penetrate the perimeter and potentially cause a lot more harm.

No matter what the reason a soldier joins there is something instilled in them that no one can understand with out being one. The desire to not let down your fellow soldier even if in doing so you may lose your own life. I think it might be that point is what Steven had in mind when he said

thank you for this - great job, and yes you did get what I was saying.

[Steven]

Even so, I think it is really horrid that anyone would claim to represent ALL soldiers. This perpetuates the MYTH that they have become automatons without their own personal opinions and beliefs; and is a disservice to them. "Support our Troops! Agree with my political stance!" is just not valid, regardless of who is saying it. "Support our Troops! Fund their health-care needs!" is at least reasonable.

this is a mistake though, this lumping of "Support Our Troops" in with "Agree with my political stance"...in fact find me that bumbersticker or poster please.....

this attitude has always been distasteful to me and I do not beleive it is fair - to me its a form of personal propoganda to lump the two togethor. And more often thatn not - I hear this lumping coming from people who have never served and have no clue what type of burdon it can create for the american service person.

[BrassFusion]

I've PERSONALLY been accused of not being supportive of the troops when I decry the war... on more than one occasion...

[Steven]

I've PERSONALLY been accused of not being supportive of the troops when I decry the war... on more than one occasion...

and your being treated unfairly.

I've seen potshots taken at soldiers by people who can't even relate to that lifestyle beyond someone that they know or some data they've perused. And when you (anyone) defend or take up a position that is deeply personal it can be challenging to check yourself. For example when I read this email from my boss I just went "Hmm, this is pretty cool, I'll post it on DGN and see what happens" and quite a bit has come of it. I dont know if any good has come of it, I dont know that it was even a good idea for me to post it, but I do think it's healthy to look at ourselves in terms of HOW we interact with one another, and that includes me, looking at me.

I know you dont agree with this war Erin. To be honest with you, neither do I anymore. But if I was a soldier and I needed bandages and some Mac and Cheese I think you'd hook me up.

[sinmantyx]

Look what they did to Kerry. He was a soldier. He was in combat. Somehow they were able to paint him as anti-military because he spoke out against the Vietnam War. Bush, who had relatively little military experience was somehow presented as having experience and empathy with the military, making him the preferable candidate in war-time. Regardless of over-all impression; that's a bit bizarre.

I think it really comes down to people simplifying complex issues in their brains. Seriously, I think it can be tricky to differentiate complex ideas: such as being pro-soldier and anti-war; or pro-choice and anti-abortion; or any number of stances that may seem contradictory without a nuanced view.

On my more cynical days, I blame much of the problems of the world on lack of cognitive development...well, that and human nature.

[sinmantyx]

this is a mistake though, this lumping of "Support Our Troops" in with "Agree with my political stance"...in fact find me that bumbersticker or poster please.....

this attitude has always been distasteful to me and I do not beleive it is fair - to me its a form of personal propoganda to lump the two togethor. And more often thatn not - I hear this lumping coming from people who have never served and have no clue what type of burdon it can create for the american service person.

My point exactly.

[Steven]

Look what they did to Kerry. He was a soldier. He was in combat. Somehow they were able to paint him as anti-military because he spoke out against the Vietnam War. Bush, who had relatively little military experience was somehow presented as having experience and empathy with the military, making him the preferable candidate in war-time. Regardless of over-all impression; that's a bit bizarre.

I think it really comes down to people simplifying complex issues in their brains. Seriously, I think it can be tricky to differentiate complex ideas: such as being pro-soldier and anti-war; or pro-choice and anti-abortion; or any number of stances that may seem contradictory without a nuanced view.

On my more cynical days, I blame much of the problems of the world on lack of cognitive development...well, that and human nature.

Hmmm....Im having puter problems because I replied to this and it did not go thru....

Syn - you used two examples that hit home with me personally (the pro soldier anti war and the pro choice anti abortion). But I dont think they are complex ideas at all. What I think is that we've been conditioned to refuse our temptation for an individual voice and to only place creedence in the group format - so therefore we are uncomfortable and subject to the torment of criticism if we venture out of the box a little because our personal value is measured within the confines of the group.

In fairness to the other points you made....

I think Kerry was really done in by his peers from Vietnam who questioned his behaviour in the war zone. Everything else sort of spilled over from there and gained momentum...

And Bush was harldy painted as an empathetic veteran.....I think the media did a good job of calling him to question on his silver spoon past....I did not see any credibility in him during his campaigning in this regard. I dont think Im alone in that. What I do think though - is that the Bush machine did a much better job presenting itself as capapble of exibiting a strong presence in trying times. Kerry never really had that sort of moxy to him, and nervous people respond to strength.

[sinmantyx]

Hmmm....Im having puter problems because I replied to this and it did not go thru....

Syn - you used two examples that hit home with me personally (the pro soldier anti war and the pro choice anti abortion). But I dont think they are complex ideas at all. What I think is that we've been conditioned to refuse our temptation for an individual voice and to only place creedence in the group format - so therefore we are uncomfortable and subject to the torment of criticism if we venture out of the box a little because our personal value is measured within the confines of the group.

In fairness to the other points you made....

I think Kerry was really done in by his peers from Vietnam who questioned his behaviour in the war zone. Everything else sort of spilled over from there and gained momentum...

And Bush was harldy painted as an empathetic veteran.....I think the media did a good job of calling him to question on his silver spoon past....I did not see any credibility in him during his campaigning in this regard. I dont think Im alone in that. What I do think though - is that the Bush machine did a much better job presenting itself as capapble of exibiting a strong presence in trying times. Kerry never really had that sort of moxy to him, and nervous people respond to strength.

I agree with that. People can be swayed by all sorts of nonsense: mantras akin to brainwashing-light (i.e. talking points), misdirection, fear mongering, etc. I only say that they are complex ideas, because they are not as simple and black-and-white as they are usually presented. That is what many people respond to...they want the world to be simple and easily understood. They respond to their emotions without thinking it through. It's like they WANT to be manipulated and socialized into the bandwagon stances in order to feel good about themselves.

I think a small part of me died when the ticker at the bottom of the TV screen...where the breaking NEWS supposed to be....said, John Kerry says, "W is for Wrong"....or some-such completely meaningless slogan. This seemed to be some last-ditch effort to start using LCD tactics. (However much I wasn't happy at the outcome of that election, I will admit that I like Kerry as a Senator more than a president. A president DOES have to be someone with a certain cult of personality who can "pull-off" being indignant without looking like a putz and is able to find that narrow window between insulting people's intelligence and confusing the uninitiated.)

Referring back to the original post: as many people pointed out: It's a simplistic feel-good piece of rhetoric that would be completely destroyed at the slightest mention of thinking it through. When I watch the news these days, I can't help but begin to think that the President of Iran and our President are like two peas in a pod. They enjoy their power. They are honestly idealistic in many ways. They are incapable of acknowledging their own incompetence to enact those ideals. They certainly want to solidify their place in history, as singular men. It's like a person in love: you think that the love itself will somehow make everything perfect without acknowledging the introspection and hard work reality demands of you: and everything goes to hell. Similarly, a strong will, ideals, and power aren't the only ingredients needed to be a successful leader...unfortunately, those are the easiest to understand and the traits that illicit the deepest response.

[Steven]

I agree with that. People can be swayed by all sorts of nonsense: mantras akin to brainwashing-light (i.e. talking points), misdirection, fear mongering, etc. I only say that they are complex ideas, because they are not as simple and black-and-white as they are usually presented. That is what many people respond to...they want the world to be simple and easily understood. They respond to their emotions without thinking it through. It's like they WANT to be manipulated and socialized into the bandwagon stances in order to feel good about themselves.

I think a small part of me died when the ticker at the bottom of the TV screen...where the breaking NEWS supposed to be....said, John Kerry says, "W is for Wrong"....or some-such completely meaningless slogan. This seemed to be some last-ditch effort to start using LCD tactics. (However much I wasn't happy at the outcome of that election, I will admit that I like Kerry as a Senator more than a president. A president DOES have to be someone with a certain cult of personality who can "pull-off" being indignant without looking like a putz and is able to find that narrow window between insulting people's intelligence and confusing the uninitiated.)

Referring back to the original post: as many people pointed out: It's a simplistic feel-good piece of rhetoric that would be completely destroyed at the slightest mention of thinking it through. When I watch the news these days, I can't help but begin to think that the President of Iran and our President are like two peas in a pod. They enjoy their power. They are honestly idealistic in many ways. They are incapable of acknowledging their own incompetence to enact those ideals. They certainly want to solidify their place in history, as singular men. It's like a person in love: you think that the love itself will somehow make everything perfect without acknowledging the introspection and hard work reality demands of you: and everything goes to hell. Similarly, a strong will, ideals, and power aren't the only ingredients needed to be a successful leader...unfortunately, those are the easiest to understand and the traits that illicit the deepest response.

good post. I like how you think.

I'd add that we seem to vascillate between shades of gray and black and white depending on the personal investment required.

we want our ideals to be black and white - we all do.

but within the challenges that may present themselves to us personally, we like to rebuff any forms of an absolute in favor of relative processes....yet to me, that combined dynamic never provides security and peace of mind.