What is your favorite Goth subgenre?

[Troy Spiral (13)]

Its true, stating something is a fact does not make it a fact. Im in complete agreement.

In the early 90s it was disucssed ad nasum in many of the trade rags, of the blurring lines between goth and industrial and synthpop. It was never considered something that "did or didnt happen" it was just discussed as "why is it happening". And , was considered (and i still consider it) a fact that the genres are , in modern times, interelated. "EBM" is a product of that discussion. ( Goth and Industrial and Synthpop(along with many other generes) intermingling) . Does that mean that there is no "pure goth" or "pure industrial" left? No im not saying that.

Im sensing anger here , which is , if somehow my fault , i'd like to repair it somehow. If just the "point" is the source of anger, ill just bow out. My need to try and get at what i view as the "most likely correct viewpoint" and get you to view it from my perspective isnt strong enough to want to piss you off in the process.

[Fierce Critter]

I don't understand where the anger, fear & distrust comes in allowing for "goth" to encompass a myriad of sounds which are, in some way, related.

To me, the "goth" genre encompasses all the above mentioned types of music. Just as the "Rock" genre encompasses the following (with examples of artists):

Country rock - Skynerd, 38 Special

Hard rock - Springsteen, Heart (pre 80's), Cheap Trick, Ted Nugent, AC/DC, Zepplin

Folk rock - James Taylor, Joan Baez, Dylan

Arena rock - Journey, Van Halen, Queen

Blues/guitar rock - Jeff Beck, Eric Clapton

I could go on. And even some stated artists blur subgenre lines - Queen can fall under hard rock. Zepplin can fall under blues rock. Ad infinitum.

Things get a little blurrier where Pop Rock comes in, 'cause you're getting into pop, which has become it's own genre. So I think you'd have to distinguish pop artists like Michael Jackson, Britney Spears & the lot as a whole different lot of subgenres of Pop.

People understand that they all make up the great world known as Rock N' Roll. And people don't have hissy fit fights about it, or moan when people apply labels. I really can't understand the upset people have over the blurring of goth genre subsets.

I mean, you might as well be uber-purist and say, "it's all fucking PUNK!!!" :

Of course, then you risk pissing off the people who will say a lot of it came from new wave. It's the mods vs. the rockers all over again.

[Scary Guy]

I couldn't pick one if I tried. Even if I didn't DJ it's just so hard to decide.

[sinmantyx]

I was trying to get him to come out to play an event we were producing last year. His written english isn't very good. I wish I had kept the email he sent me telling me how we needed to have a good, strong PA and speakers or he would blow our shit up. There is no way I could reproduce it or paraphrase it and achieve the same effect his email had.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What?! That is so cool!

We should talk. There are quite a few noise shows coming up in the area. Are you on the Iheartnoise board? If there are venues that would welcome a noise act such as Merzbow, perhap you should contact other noise people. SICKNESS is probably one of the most respected in the US...and I totally want to see him live.

Anyway, this is getting so off topic! So:

Iheartebm

Iheartsynthpop

Iheartgothicpunk

Iheartdeathmetal

Iheartnoise

NOISE IS NOT GOTH...but we have closet goths! I know we do!

[Daniel]

Its true, stating something is a fact does not make it a fact.  Im in complete agreement.

In the early 90s it was disucssed ad nasum in many of the trade rags, of the blurring lines between goth and industrial and synthpop. It was never considered something that "did or didnt happen" it was just discussed as "why is it happening".  And , was considered (and i still consider it) a fact that the  genres are , in modern times, interelated.  "EBM" is a product of that discussion. ( Goth and Industrial and Synthpop(along with many other generes) intermingling) .  Does that mean that there is no "pure goth" or "pure industrial" left? No im not saying that.

Im sensing anger here , which is , if somehow my fault , i'd like to repair it somehow.  If just the "point" is the source of anger, ill just bow out.  My need to try and get at what i view as the "most likely correct viewpoint" and get you to view it from my perspective isnt strong enough to want to piss you off in the process.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don't sweat it. I try not to project emotion in many of my posts, but that indifference usually gets read as anger. I should put smilies at the end of every sentence, but I really don't like doing that. I am certain anger is seen because I am somewhat confrontational and ask pointed questions.

Back to the topic, I used to read rec.music.industrial and have been involved in this crap for... too many years now. I've been right down to the middle of it, producing shows, writing music, meeting bands (my roommates will be performing with Pigface in a month), etc. I don't approact this like an authority, but my experiences have shown with this topic in particular, people "miss the point" of genres.

Genres, again, are used to classify things by some sort of commonality in style/approach.

Industrial is vague to the point of being worthless. Why bother with it, when nothing subcatagorized has nothing to do with the other catagories? It isn't like the "rock" example above, because there are very definitely sound and stylistic qualities that exist that can put all rock bands into "rock". With 'industrial', this isn't so. Four 'industrial' bands could conceivably have NOTHING in common. Goth is a bit more pointed, and I think definable, yet many people think shit fits in there that doesn't, just because their goth friends listen to it. Genres are certainly related, particularly EBM/synthpop. But, the genres in question ARE NOT related. Seriously, tell me the specific similarities between Merzbow and VNV Nation that put them in the same 'industrial' catagory and in a way that we couldn't also rope in Eminem, Garth Brooks or Moby as well, and maybe you'll have a solid point.

Genres that have a lot more to do with each other, to me, are like Jungle and Breakcore. Synthpop and EBM are definitely related. Noise and ambient are similar. Hell, even most "techno" genres can be roped together well, like rock above, and EBM and Synthpop can comfortably sit there. Goth, on the other hand, isn't defined by its use of electronics (or lack of electronics either), and there are common stylistic qualities present(Which could produce a huge discussion by itself). There are certainly bands that could be goth and synthpop, but the majority of artists in these genres cannot reasonably be considered both.

Of course, again, I am more comfortable putting synthpop or EBM under goth than I am industrial, but... again, I think industrial is a stupid genre to even try to use, catagorically. I don't think a common audience is the best way to catagorize music, especially when this "common" audience can never agree on anything.

[Black Sunday]

Merzbow and VNV Nation have as much in common as Skinny Puppy and Merzbow. I think you'll find several groups within a genre can sound completely different. Alien Sex Fiend sounds nothing like Entzerzende Naubautan (sp). Nine Inch Nails sounds nothing like Delien. The Beatles don't sound like Franki Valley. Etc Etc.

Anyone who comes in and says "this definately isn't xxx because I say so" isn't worth debating with. There ARE elements of industrial in the earlier VNV songs.

As for me, it's synthpop. By far. De/Vision....Red Flag....Wolfsheim.....The Nine.....

[sinmantyx]

Merzbow and VNV Nation have as much in common as Skinny Puppy and Merzbow.    I think you'll find several groups within a genre can sound completely different.   

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would not put Merzbow in the same catagory at VNV Nation. I wouldn't even put Skinny Puppy in the same catagory as Merzbow.

The more you know about a certain community of musicians/composers; the more sub-genres make sense. My friend Ryan goes on about 20 different types of music I would just call "dance" or "techno" because I have no frickin' clue.

Just like I could go on about "Harsh Noise", "Power Electronics", "Dark Ambient", "Acoustic Noise", "Experimental Electroacoustic Computer Music", "CrapTop", "Pedal Noise", "Psychodelic Noise", "Rhythmic Noise"...blah blah blah...

I'm no expert either; but those terms actually mean something to me...so when someone puts VNV Nation in the same sentence as Merzbow........I'm really really confused.

To me "industrial" basically just means harsh...if you want to find it's roots...they are in the early 1900's...yeah, like during the industrial revolution, when composers actually started to use industrial machinery as part of their compositions. So, naturally industrial generally means something noisey with strong repetitive rhythm. That's how I use the word.

Truth is...generally speaking musicians and composers will self-catagorized based more on *who* they want their audience to be instead of *what* they actually sound like. I know I do. That's why I call "SignCoast" my "dark ambient" peice instead of "space music" or "mood music" or "put me on a CD in K-mart for people doing facials at a spa music"

[Scary Guy]

ALL music is noise, if you don't hear noise, you aren't hearing anything.

As far as "experemental" goes yes, there is goth experemental music, it's just darker than the regular stuff.

[sinmantyx]

ALL music is noise, if you don't hear noise, you aren't hearing anything.

As far as "experemental" goes yes, there is goth experemental music, it's just darker than the regular stuff.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

All natural complex sounds include non-harmonically related partials, particularly within transient attacks...so yeah...most music has "noise" in it. The only music without noise in it would be songs played with a really old MOOG....quit being silly.

"Noise" is a genre of "sound production" that many don't even bother calling "music" because it is generally devoid of traditional musical structures and timbres. "Experimental" music are compositions that employ experimental and new techniques...such as original computer programing, instrument design, or "hey lets see what putting an electric eel in our feed back loop does" or "hey lets see what happens when we peice all this tape together and put it through out DAT player".

Very few people actually do experimental music these days....many use techniques from the 50's and call it "experimental" because they don't know what else to call it and "experimental" sounds cool; and many of them have no idea that what they are doing is not brand new and edgy....so they call "Rainforest CMCXII" experimental music.

I might not be a good person to have this particular conversation with...cause, I am an expert...and I'll probably just say you're wrong. I will say your wrong because I'm really sick of the bastardization of the word "experimental".

I am interested in people doing "experimental goth" music....cause I'd like to figure out for myself what they are actually doing.

links?

[Scary Guy]

http://www.di.fm/edmguide/edmguide.html link

You find me where it says noise as a genre on it's own, I can't seem to find it at all.

[Daniel]

Anyone who comes in and says "this definately isn't xxx because I say so" isn't worth debating with.

Agreed. And I gave you plenty of sound reasoning, and plenty of opportunity to make a clear and educated retort. You haven't. YOU are saying "they are the same because I said so". How are Skinny Puppy and Merzbow alike? How are Skinny Puppy and VNV alike? And holy shit man, how are VNV and Merzbow alike?

There ARE elements of industrial in the earlier VNV songs. 

Assuming this is true... I implore you, please part with what these elemets are. And... are those elements still present? Because, VNV and every synthpop track I've ever heard sounds like the drum machine equivelent of the easter bunny squeezing a rubber duckie. It is too cute to ever be considered... whatever it is you consider industrial to be.

You find me where it says noise as a genre on it's own, I can't seem to find it at all.

It is on there, under "hardcore" after "EBM", listed as "power electronics" which is how it is traditionally labeled if you don't break it down to "noise", "Power noise", ad neaseam. That site loses all credibility for putting noise directly linked to EBM, though. EBM is all about four-to-the-floor beats (trance, as the site puts it), where power electronics is just dissonance. If they were just going to pick a random genre to shoot it off of, they should have just went with industrial, or just started it with power electronics. Personally, I would have went with the later, given the layout of the map.

Even further, I think power electronics/noisecore/gabber/etc should have been closer to IDM and glitch. I think the problem is the site is made by straight up techno guys who aren't extremely well versed in those harsher genres. This is sort of evident by a lot of their negative side comments in their genre descriptions. And though I agree noise doesn't belong in jungle, neither does IDM or glitch, so... wtf?

On the other hand, they seemed to do a pretty good job with the ambient/down tempo stuff.

[Rivet_HeadINC]

Industrial and Classic Goth

I love KMFDM, I'm only 3 albums shy of the full library and then I hunt down the singles. It's almost become and adventure trying to get all of there CD's

But I also love bands like Bauhaus. I will never forget seeing them in Chicago during their reunion tour. That was amazing.

[sinmantyx]

"...where power electronics is just dissonance."

...most power electronics are fascists or perverts screaming in a microphone over a wall of noise with no beats, the vocals are usually over-processed to the point where you have difficulty understanding the words that are being screamed and at times usually cannot discern what is vocals and what is feeback or chaotic oscillation loops generally created from pedals or homemade electronics.

PE acts I have witnessed:

Slogun

Think Machine/Eugenics Council

"Harsh Noise" usually does not have vocals or beats, and little or no traditional harmony or sonically disinteresting complex tones with harmonically related partials giving rise to discernable pitches.

That's why I really don't see acts like "Wolf Eyes" as "Harsh Noise" because their peices include some traditional musical forms...don't let them tell you different.

"Dissonance" is a really interesting word to use. Do you mean Helmholtz "beat theory" dissonance? That is so cool.

Anyway, we totally high-jacked this thread. Terms tend to change their meaning over the years and different people use them in different ways. That's kind of the end of it really. Even though people calling "noisey" music "noise" and derivitive compositions "experimental", annoys me because it dilutes the meaning those words have to me....it really can't be helped. So, you just got to accept it and add an adjective like "harsh" in front of "noise"...and call it good.

However, having someone tell you that "noise" is not a "genre" cause some website doesn't list it is just borderline insulting....I mean, seriously, was that a joke? For chrissake, I've been networking with "noise musicians" for five years; having very meaningful conversation with people who have been involved in noise since the 80's. The idea that some techno guys don't see it as a "genre" somehow makes it not so...is just ridiculous.

I'll scare up some links to info when I get a chance, so if anyone really wants to know what Daniel and I are talking about...you can read up. Otherwise, we should start another thread in "misc" or take this up elsewhere.

oh yeah....

iheartsynthpop

A man and his casio should never be parted.

[Scary Guy]

Well industrial isn't even industrial to me. True industrial is with power tools IMO, with bands like say stomp, or by cavemen, or any garden variety junk yard band.

Also I don't see a genre of pure "noise". I'm not arguing if it exists or not, I'm arguing how it is labled. It's a terminology issue, like what he says about electronica, that cracks me up.

But yeah noise is music without harmony, or a constant beat, or intelligence (I'm just joking with that last one). You might as well just put it as a subcatagory of experemental because that is what it truely is.

Who doesn't love Throbing Gristle? anyone?

[Daniel]

We should start a thread on noise music. Labeling it as experimental is misleading. Most noise artists aren't experimenting with anything. Experimentation sort of implies innovation or trying something new. Noise is neither. It has been done for many years. And as mentioned above, it does break down into a lot of different styles in itself. There are genres of pure "noise". Power electronics is, in fact, somewhat misleading, and is different from "noise" and "power noise", though very slightly. Personally, I do think power noise is related to EBM, though I do generally prefer it to EBM.

[LuluVox]

Y'all are giving me a headache.

[Scary Guy]

Y'all are giving me a headache.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If you want a real headache try listining to the music being discussed (some of it is good, most of it is not my cup of motor oil)

[sinmantyx]

If you want a real headache try listining to the music being discussed (some of it is good, most of it is not my cup of motor oil)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

hahahaha

Well, Lackthrow is very gothy noise!

...not to mention DCLXVI is quite dark.

Nastyassshit.

I think I'll call that a new genre...dontchathink? Descriptive enough?!

Actually, this is mostly "harsh noise"...it is usually labeled as "experimental" or "industrial" because sites generally do not include "noise" as an option.

[sinmantyx]

We should start a thread on noise music. Labeling it as experimental is misleading. Most noise artists aren't experimenting with anything. Experimentation sort of implies innovation or trying something new. Noise is neither. It has been done for many years. And as mentioned above, it does break down into a lot of different styles in itself. There are genres of pure "noise". Power electronics is, in fact, somewhat misleading, and is different from "noise" and "power noise", though very slightly. Personally, I do think power noise is related to EBM, though I do generally prefer it to EBM.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've never heard the term "power noise" used. The term "PE" or "power electronics" is used all the time, but not "power noise"....don't tell me you can dance to "power noise"? Is that it?

...anyway, yeah we got off-topic pretty badly...

ummmm....

Iheartclassicgoth

...cause I was goth when goth was punk!

THE DAMNED RULE!!!!!

[Daniel]

Power noise generally falls in line with a lot of the classic Ant-Zen sound. Heavy, very distorted beats, distorted synth lines, heavy atmosphere and ambience, usually no vocals. Think Converter, Hypnoskull, Iszoloscope, P.A.L., etc. Im sort of surprised you haven't heard the term power noise. I've always hated the term, because it isn't really noise at all, but whatever. Everyone uses it, and it is pretty easy to identify.

If I were to run a club night, it would like be a lot of power noise and noisecore.

I do happen to be a big fan of a lot of classic goth (hate Sisters of Mercy though), but love tons of the ethereal, neo-classical and neo-folk stuff. I love a lot of the stuff that comes from Cold Meat, Projekt, etc. Im sitting on pins and needles waiting for the new Shinjuku Thief CD to arrive, that I ordered last week.

[Scary Guy]

Black Velvet Flag is pretty goth...

Oh yeah and I have tons of The Damned on Vinyl (btw does anyone actually remember what "Picturedisks" are?)

[Daniel]

This is the best derailed thread ever, btw.

[Fierce Critter]

Sold off a Kate Bush picturedisc last year. :

To me, I can't deal with music that hadn't got melody. So much of what you guys are discussing I couldn't deal with due to that.

Even NIN gets too unmelodic for me, and that's a far cry from the stuff you guys are salivating over.

It's what I think about when discussions of CC's playlists come around 3-4 times a year. If they played the kind of stuff you guys like, I'd probably stop going altogether. Yet, in said discussions, I hear a lot of people mentioning the names you're bringing up, and whining that they request those bands and yet they never get played.

Duh. I wonder why.

I'm not saying that kind of music isn't good. But a dance floor ain't the place for it.

CC should go back to having a 2nd place (like near the coat check) where more of these kinds of things would get played. They had a jukebox up there at one point in the mid 90's. That would be a good compromise for those who want to hear something new and less danceable.

Yes, give me melody - so give me my EBM & synthpop. (And yes, I do prefer EBM that's closer to synthpop and further from techno - I need more than repetitive beats and the same arpeggio played over and over again.)

[TomCat]

I like whatever makes my ass wanna wiggle at the time.

[Daniel]

(And yes, I do prefer EBM that's closer to synthpop and further from techno - I need more than repetitive beats and the same arpeggio played over and over again.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ugg. You hear more than repetitive beats and the same arpeggio played over and over again in synthpop and EBM? That's all I hear. But then again, I rarely don't care about vocals. To me, that stuff is just trance with bad vocals on top. Boring.

Don't get me wrong, I would never expect 75% of the music I like to ever be played in a club of any kind. A lounge maybe, but not a dance club. Some power noise and noisecore has hella-dancable beats. I saw Venetian Snares a few weeks ago, and the floor was blown up! People were dancing their asses off. Some of his stuff is using fully orchestral elements (cellos, violins, etc), so it has melody sometimes.

My real gripe with EBM/synthpop/et al is the ridiculous over saturation of it. I used to be able to handle that shit in moderate doses (in 1996). Now that it has become so ubiquitous with "the scene", it makes me sick to my stomach. There are other beats you can dance to besides four-to-the-floor crap. I wonder if it's just some weird uncoordinated-white-people-in-a-dark-cave-of-a-club thing. Throw in a few weird snares or kicks here and there, and it throws them off. They can't dance anyway, they can't see, and everyone is watching. That's serious shit we are talking about there! Remember, people dancing at city club aren't having fun, they are serious artists!

To me, this is where the anti-genre people should be coming in. My vision for a good 'scene' club would be a place that mixes up genres A LOT. It doesn't play the same artists over and over. I miss nights where the idea of going to a club was to hear new music, not the same shit you listened to in your car on the way there, and/or have the lyrics to memorized. And some of the old classics is fine, but mix that shit up. Hell, even if you can only dance to the 00ntz shit, there is a huge body of artists out there doing different things with it besides the typical formulaic EBM/synthpop stuff. My frustration is that I know how much different, yet cool and ontopic, stuff is out there, and that the same crap(literally, the same songs over and over) is played all of the time. It is gross, really.