What is your favorite Goth subgenre?

[Black Sunday]

Agreed. And I gave you plenty of sound reasoning, and plenty of opportunity to make a clear and educated retort. You haven't. YOU are saying "they are the same because I said so". How are Skinny Puppy and Merzbow alike? How are Skinny Puppy and VNV alike? And holy shit man, how are VNV and Merzbow alike?

First of all I started this thread and you'll notice I put VNV in the EBM category, not the industrial category. But to say that there is no link between EBM and industrial is feigning ignorance. While VNV Nation and Skinny Puppy and Merzbow all sound completely different, there is no reason why they can't fall under the same unbrella. Throbbing Gristle Spawned Chris and Cosey - and they sound nothing like Throbbing Gristle. Music is a long and winding road and no two groups in a genre will sound exactly alike yet two groups in a genre can sound completely different.

Just because you don't think VNV nation belongs in the same "genre" as Merzbow doesn't make it so.

I'm also wondering why we are even having this debate since this isn't what the thread was supposed to be about.

Assuming this is true... I implore you, please part with what these elemets are. And... are those elements still present? Because, VNV and every synthpop track I've ever heard sounds like the drum machine equivelent of the easter bunny squeezing a rubber duckie. It is too cute to ever be considered... whatever it is you consider industrial to be.

You know on another forum there are Erasure and Anything Box fans who are saying "VNV Nation is NOT synthpop, it's something different altogether". There is plenty of synthpop that sounds nothing like VNV Nation. VNV Nation is a conglomerate of trance, synth pop and a touch of industrial. Purist of all these genres may denounce VNV Nation but these people should get over themselves.

[Black Sunday]

Ugg. You hear more than repetitive beats and the same arpeggio played over and over again in synthpop and EBM? That's all I hear. But then again, I rarely don't care about vocals. To me, that stuff is just trance with bad vocals on top. Boring.

My real gripe with EBM/synthpop/et al is the ridiculous over saturation of it. I used to be able to handle that shit in moderate doses (in 1996). Now that it has become so ubiquitous with "the scene", it makes me sick to my stomach. There are other beats you can dance to besides four-to-the-floor crap.

Since it's obvious you're not well versed in synthpop I'm wondering why you're talking about it. Go and listen to Archtiecture and Morality and then tell me it's repetitive 4 to the floor music with bad vocals. Nothing like stereotyping, eh?

[TearSandrille]

EBM

[Daniel]

I'm also wondering why we are even having this debate since this isn't what the thread was supposed to be about. 

You know on another forum there are Erasure and Anything Box fans who are saying "VNV Nation is NOT synthpop, it's something different altogether".    There is plenty of synthpop that sounds nothing like VNV Nation.    VNV Nation is a conglomerate of trance, synth pop and a touch of industrial.    Purist of all these genres may denounce VNV Nation but these people should get over themselves.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, you'll always have that. But shit man, what quality of industrial do they have? I mean... I can't think of one single "industrial" quality there. Not one. You keep saying they have industrial qualities, but again, I implore you, please tell me. At this point, I'm sincerely curious. I guess most people call them futurepop, though I can hardly tell the difference between that and synthpop. Of course, I hate all of that shit, so I am not much of a subject matter expert. It all sounds like trance with bad vocals to me. Industrial.... I don't see it. Not even a little bit.

Though I am inclined to agree, VNV is more just... something altogether. It sits somewhere in a land between Mr. T's Commandments and Bill Shatner's "Mr. Tambourine Man". No one knows what the hell any of that crap is, but it is truly brilliant in its own, uhh... special way.

[Black Sunday]

Well, you'll always have that. But shit man, what quality of industrial do they have? I mean... I can't think of one single "industrial" quality there. Not one. You keep saying they have industrial qualities, but again, I implore you, please tell me. At this point, I'm sincerely curious. I guess most people call them futurepop, though I can hardly tell the difference between that and synthpop. Of course, I hate all of that shit, so I am not much of a subject matter expert. It all sounds like trance with bad vocals to me. Industrial.... I don't see it. Not even a little bit.

Though I am inclined to agree, VNV is more just... something altogether. It sits somewhere in a land between Mr. T's Commandments and Bill Shatner's "Mr. Tambourine Man". No one knows what the hell any of that crap is, but it is truly brilliant in its own, uhh... special way.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ok well let me preface this by saying I can seem abrasive in some of these types of discussions because I think there is alot of elitism going on, not by you, but by people who say "this music doesn't belong in my scene". So sorry if I sound angry.

I think only the early VNV nation has hints of industrial and that's in the vocals. Same with early Apop. Now neither of these groups really resemble industrial anymore by any stretch but Apop, Covenant and VNV all have roots in industrial when they started, you can tell they were listening to KMFDM and Skinny Puppy.....and then got ahold of Paul Van Dyk and then added Martin Gore style vocals over the top.

I'm a huge synthpop fan, always have been. I'm not sure how or why it got mixed up in the goth scene but I just accept it. I just think goth is a big umbrella now of many different things and that's why fans of type o negative, throbbing gristle, joy division and wolfshem all meet at the same clubs and on the same message boards. There's no rhyme or reason to it, but that's the way it is.

[Daniel]

Since it's obvious you're not well versed in synthpop I'm wondering why you're talking about it.    Go and listen to Archtiecture and Morality and then tell me it's repetitive 4 to the floor music with bad vocals.      Nothing like stereotyping, eh?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Boy, aren't you a wee sensitive laddie.

What the hell is Archtiecture(sic?) and Morality? Are they songs I should listen to that are going to change my opinion? I've listened to plenty of VNV Nation, and haven't been impressed by any of it. It isn't dynamic or innovated, and doesn't really need any further scrutinization from me. I'll usually check out any new stuff that comes out, but unless it hooks me, I don't spend much time with it.

And I am talking about synthpop because I am familiar with it on a base level, at the least. I have a lot of background in it from promoting events. I've been around it for years and years. I was forced to listen to tons of that shit from promo discs forced onto me by other area promoters, in an attempt to find the best turd on the crap pile in order to represent the genre fairly. I can barely tell the difference between trance, synthpop, futurepop and EBM. I could name drop all day, about bands from "a different drum" "Metropolis", "Wax Trax II", ad neauseam, etc. I had to listen to... dozens of those CDs. I can tell you the differences between Glis and System 22. I can tell you the differences between VNV Nation and The Azoic. I can tell you the differences between Icon of Coil and Covenant... wait... maybe I can't. My point is, I am pretty versed in it, it is all trite and predictable, over uses the same damn 00ntz beat, bad lyrics etc. Seems the thing that seperates the genres the most is... BPM. Again, because the shit all sounds the same to me, I can barely tell it apart, genre wise. Artist wise, sure, but there are so many common elements... it is just, outside of EBM, I can't see how any of it qualifies as "industrial", and even calling EBM industrial seems a tad liberal.

Personally, the only "synthpop" I really dig is SPOCK. Other than that, I just don't get anything out of it. I can see why some people like it, and I would enjoy it more, again, if it wasn't so over saturated. In clubs like Luna, where it is part of the set and not the whole set, I enjoy it fairly enough. But, too much of a bad things is just... a bad thing.

[sinmantyx]

There is crap in every genre...uninspired ridiculous crap that sounds like everything else you have ever heard and sucks.

Probably the reason I haven't heard powernoise discussed (even though I had heard the term before, just never used in context...just in some list or whatever) is because there is a large rift between music for dance and music for listening and music for altered states...etc.

Noise people generally don't talk about noise you can dance to. [...but some of them have super secret side projects that go thump thump thump...it's best not to admit that to a bunch of anti-art artists and wannabe futurists.]

Artists usually skirt around different "catagories", but in the end we need words to express what something is like. If you create music with no reguard to genre...you'll know what we go through! So, we just use the words the we think will best explain to whomever is reading (instead of listening) what we are all about in a nut shell. We decide on the words we use based on 1) what other projects/bands have historically used the word; 2) what the term actually means and 3) how our target audience will react to the word.

All the actual defining of a genre happens in an historical context and is subsequent to the artists defining themselves. Musicologists start defining and writing everything down and analysing the whole lot of things...but it's all just an oversimplification of what has actually happened in retrospect....catagorization for the purposes of study. Why do you think so many "goth" bands freak out when people call them "goth"?...because they don't want their creative work reduced to a stereotype and a foot-note, grouping it together with other artists and movements that they think have nothing to do with them....but in the big picture...they do.

btw...I totally have a copy of the original single of Bela Legosi's Dead on vinyl...you may worship me now.

OH...and to the thread police.....

Iheartdeathmetal

Because nothing says "I'm goth" like setting fire to a Stav Church and playing a bass really really fast while it burns.

[Daniel]

Ok well let me preface this by saying I can seem abrasive in some of these types of discussions because I think there is alot of elitism going on, not by you, but by people who say "this music doesn't belong in my scene".    So sorry if I sound angry.   

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don't worry about it. I think "the scene" is lame anyway. You can be angry if you want, it doesn't bother me. I'm here to bullshit. I don't take any of this personally.

[sinmantyx]

Don't worry about it. I think "the scene" is lame anyway. You can be angry if you want, it doesn't bother me. I'm here to bullshit. I don't take any of this personally.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Scenes only become lame when people begin calling them "scenes".

[Fierce Critter]

You know, I'm not the groups in question, so I don't take it personally if someone thinks this band sucks, or that band sucks, etc.

However, I think it's kinda rude to keep saying something isn't worth shitting on when it's something someone else says they like. You're basically saying, "you have no taste, and the taste you think you have is absurd". That's SO wrong.

There is music I don't like. There's music I can't get into, yet respect. There's music I don't understand, but again, I respect that it's a creation someone made and is being enjoyed by SOMEONE.

But nothing - nothing - is "shit". I don't like country. I don't like most top 40. But I respect the artists, good or bad. I respect that someone out there likes "that stuff", even if it doesn't appeal to me.

I was listening to Pearl Jam in the car once, and my sister said, "god, that's crap". And I was very hurt. She said so much more than she realized with that. She listens to Mariah Carey & the like - and I wouldn't DREAM of saying something like that when a song she liked might come on the radio. I just respect my sister too much for that.

I don't like Janis Joplin, Jimi Hendrix or the vast majority of Pink Floyd. But I would NEVER say any of that is "shit" 'cause I know better. It's not - it's highly respected by those who "know" that kind of music - and who am I to say they're taste is shit just 'cause I don't personally like the sound? It doesn't appeal to me - but that doesn't make it shit - not by a looooooooooooooooooooooong shot.

Likewise, I wouldn't put down a club that plays any of this. If a country bar plays Garth Brooks, Brooks & Dunn, or any of the other artists I'm struggling to come up with, it's be absurd for me to say they need to play, oh, Adam Ant or Skinny Puppy or Lawrence Welk for that matter. And it'd be absurd for me to say they SHOULDN'T play that which makes their patrons happy. That said, CC has NEVER been proclaimed a "goth" club, or an EBM club, or ANY sort of club in particular. So to expect them to play ANYTHING except what happens to keep the clientele happy is just wishing ants were rabbits. It's wishing something that makes no sense.

And, in addition, I personally am not a big fan of music that lacks vocals. Often, it's the vocals that make or break a song for me. So I DO value a good vocal line. And a good melody. And I really, REALLY can't can't stand chaotic, dissonant, unmelodic music/noise/whathave you...

...but I would NEVER say that makes it "shit".

[Daniel]

But nothing - nothing - is "shit".

You obviously haven't heard Sivablood. =)

Now, it is a pretty broad thing to assume because I say something is shit, that means I say everyone thinks it is shit, or that they even should think it is shit. Hell, in the same posts, I even said I can understand why people like the stuff I don't like. I still, however, think it is shit. If people find my opinion of their music to be disrespectful, I am hardly in a position to control or realign their perception on the matter. I could easily change the statement to, "I don't like that" vs "That is crap", but... really, that'd be dishonest. I really do think it is bad. However, if you want a full break down and assessment as to why I think certain music is "shit", or rather "of poor quality", I am willing to provide that. I can break down the usage of trite progressions, predictability of musical changes, repetitive lyrical imagery, etc. I can conversely explain why these elements that I think are, well... shit, are popular and appeal to people. Of course, that might not be a good thing either, but I could certainly provide that, if my reasoning is being questioned, and we want to push the issue.

Also, I have no expection for any club to play anything other than what they want to play. If people want to dance to Covanent's "Dead Stars" from now until the year 2391CE, by all means, let them stomp until they bore holes in their monster boots. I will be disgusted with it, and will go elsewhere. No one else's loss, unless I have some fan club I am not aware of...?

[FarrIL]

Influenced by Phee's thread in the movies forum.....

......ok no debate here on what is and isn't goth.....just tell me what is the style of music you're most into that is related to the 'goth' scene?

"Classic Goth" like Bauhaus, Sisters of Mercy, Clan of Xymox, Lycia

"Industrial" like Skinny Puppy, KMFDM, Ministry

"EBM or Future Pop" like Apoptygma Bezerk, VNV Nation, Covenant

"Synthpop" like Depeche Mode, De/Vision, Wolfsheim

"other" please explain

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

GAH!! We are forgetting one Classic Goth group......... Siouxsie and the Banshees.

I'm one to listen to all those listed above. Clan of Xymox is fun stuff, as is Lycia. KMFDM is something I love stomping to, VNV Nation gets my emotions going and Wolfsheim, although I havent lsitened to much of them, leaves me wanting more. ;P

And Siouxsie......... "Peekaboo" says it all. XD

[Fierce Critter]

If people find my opinion of their music to be disrespectful, I am hardly in a position to control or realign their perception on the matter.

...if you want a full break down and assessment as to why I think certain music is "shit", or rather "of poor quality", I am willing to provide that. I can break down the usage of trite progressions, predictability of musical changes, repetitive lyrical imagery, etc.  I can conversely explain why these elements that I think are, well... shit, are popular and appeal to people. Of course, that might not be a good thing either, but I could certainly provide that, if my reasoning is being questioned, and we want to push the issue.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Of course it's disrespectful. By decreeing that certain things that other people like are shit, you're, simply put, saying that if you like those certain things, you like shit. That's disrespectful. You're putting your tastes/likes above the tastes/likes of people who like something different than you.

If it's not disrespectful, at the very least it's elitist and snobby.

You consider said progressions "trite". I find them ear pleasing & familiar. You call the changes predictable. I consider them classic - much in the way the different poetry rhythms are predictable & classic. You find the lyrical imagery repetitive - I find it "like themes that appeal to me". And since you say you're not into lyrics, don't much listen to them, then who are you to judge anyway? I mean, if a person doesn't like stories about birds, who are they to edit/critique books about birds? Get my drift?

I'm not as worked-up about this as my typed words might appear. I just think that, while I admire & find the discussions interesting here, I don't think that insult is a real good way to get your point across. You say you don't take any of this personally - yet you're getting very personal.

[Daniel]

Of course it's disrespectful. By decreeing that certain things that other people like are shit, you're, simply put, saying that if you like those certain things, you like shit.

No. It's more like saying I think what they like is shit. Not saying what they like is actually, literally shit. Opinions are always subjective information. I shouldn't have to tell you this. If they want to be offended by my opinion of their music... that's unfortunate, but I can't control their reactions. It seems unreasonable to me for everyone to have my approval on everything. If they don't want to like music I think is horrible... stop liking it! =)

If it's not disrespectful, at the very least it's elitist and snobby.

This I will concede too. Maybe not so much elitism, but snobby for sure. I'm definitely a music snob and a dork. Dude, could anyone possibly talk about genres as much as I do and not fit this stereotype?

And since you say you're not into lyrics, don't much listen to them, then who are you to judge anyway? I mean, if a person doesn't like stories about birds, who are they to edit/critique books about birds? Get my drift?

Well, I LOVE lyrics. I love poetry. I'll critique the hell out of those too. The problem is, most lyricists are very amateur high school quality poets. I'd say, 80% of lyricists. I wouldn't be able to fairly conclude that if I didn't listen to lyrics. Bear in mind, I hear at least half a dozen new CDs per week. If 75% of what I listen to is instrumental(and it is), that's still a lot of lyrical stuff. However, I'd just assume go read poetry. When it comes to music, I really am into the music. It doesn't need a message for me to enjoy it. I won't dismiss some music as poor because of bad lyrics, but it depends on how bad they are, and how they are performed. If I can tune the words out, and appreciate the use of voice as an instument, hey... that's cool by me. If the lyrics are weak, but clever and/or witty, I can dig that too. I don't think all music should be perfect, but I'm just saying... most lyrics are little more than bad poetry.

You say you don't take any of this personally - yet you're getting very personal.

You, and anyone else, are at liberty to read my posts however you choose. What my intentions are and how you elect to perceive them will certainly not always be in alignment, and that is too bad. For clairity, I encourage reading the whole message and putting it all together, vs focusing on the details independently from the whole post. If something is unclear, by all means, keeping asking questions and I can do my best to provide an answer.

[sinmantyx]

I think people that make music (not in general, but at least noise musicians) get pretty jaded to other calling sounds they like "shit".

When you listen ALOT....you tend to get snobby. I know I do. I went to a few student "electroacoustic" performances and had some of the stuff is horrilbe.....some of my old stuff is horrible...because it is student work and student work is usually laced with the obvious and the trite.

When I hear some music (even stuff that is really fun to dance to) it is difficult to stomach if I know it is just some guy in his basement with a programmable sequencer and a book of trite, uninspired drivel he wrote in highschool. If I feel like I could produce what I am listening to in the course of about 15 minutes of suck...it is difficult to admire.

This is elitists. I couldn't imagine what I would be like if I actually books shows and was sent CD after CD of compositions. I am also a bitch when it comes to poetry. If anyone out there really wants some "tough love" with their lyrics/poetry.....I really don't mind making bad poets cry.....and you'll learn alot more than if you ask your patronizing friends what they think.

Some of the silly lyrics and cliche music out there does kind of annoy me...however, at some point the value of a thing lies more in "the beholder" than the "truth". At times, lyrics that just struck me stupid as being the most ridiculous I have ever heard like....."Alive enough for death......" WTF? But, some of it can grow on you...if you just appreciate it for what it is instead of put it up against the absolutely mind-blowing material someone else produces....or, of course, compare it to your own ideals you have developed for yourself.

To enjoy music...or anything really...just approach it like a curious observer...interested in understand the thing and experiencing the thing...not neccesarily judging the thing.

Learning about music and understanding music...can actually hinder the enjoyment of music at times. Trust me.

ooooh...and to the thread....

iheartindustrial

...because NIHL is not just for factory workers anymore!!

[Scary Guy]

btw...I totally have a copy of the original single of Bela Legosi's Dead on vinyl...you may worship me now.

Oh you too? Not to metnion their cover of Ziggy Stardust. the BBC sessions, etc...

Care to go for round three?

[sinmantyx]

Oh you too?  Not to metnion their cover of Ziggy Stardust. the BBC sessions, etc...

Care to go for round three?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Damnit...bad enough that this thread turned into sub-genre semantics bitching...now you wish to turn it into my shit is cooler than yours?

My pride and joy vinyl:

Bela Legosi's Dead

Lost Boys sound track

Flash Gordon sound track

...and that's really about it. I have "The Damned" Strawberry with the pig and some Echo and the Bunnymen album of some sort and a Eurythmics "Sweet Dreams" and some MEN AT WORK...hahaha...I have the Blade Runner soundtrack and that is really bad.

But I'm not a serious collector of any sort whatsoever....

YEAH..I guess that is something that hasn't come up on this thread...soundtracks!

iheartsoundtracks

...because Danny Elfman needs to eat.

[Scary Guy]

But I like Oingo Boingo...

"Lost Boys sound track

Flash Gordon sound track

Bladerunner sound track

All awesome, all I have is The Labyrinth sound track... plus the album of remixes of The Magic Dance haha. Ooh and Close Encounters of the Third Kind that I got from High School when they were throwing tons of it out. Also Parlement and a Led Zepp 45 that was scratched beyond recognition, but it looks nice on my wall.

[Black Sunday]

What the hell is Archtiecture(sic?) and Morality?  Are they songs I should listen to that are going to change my opinion? I've listened to plenty of VNV Nation, and haven't been impressed by any of it. It isn't dynamic or innovated, and doesn't really need any further scrutinization from me. I'll usually check out any new stuff that comes out, but unless it hooks me, I don't spend much time with it.

And I am talking about synthpop because I am familiar with it on a base level, at the least. I have a lot of background in it from promoting events. I've been around it for years and years. I was forced to listen to tons of that shit from promo discs forced onto me by other area promoters, in an attempt to find the best turd on the crap pile in order to represent the genre fairly. I can barely tell the difference between trance, synthpop, futurepop and EBM. I could name drop all day, about bands from "a different drum" "Metropolis", "Wax Trax II", ad neauseam, etc. I had to listen to... dozens of those CDs. I can tell you the differences between Glis and System 22. I can tell you the differences between VNV Nation and The Azoic. I can tell you the differences between Icon of Coil and Covenant... wait... maybe I can't. My point is, I am pretty versed in it, it is all trite and predictable, over uses the same damn 00ntz beat, bad lyrics etc. Seems the thing that seperates the genres the most is...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The irony here is that you object to certain bands being labeled as industrial and then you wrongly put non synthpop bands in the synthpop genre. Icon of Coil = not synthpop. Vnv Nation = not synthpop. Covenant = not synthpop. Over at www.electrogarden.com they get offended when you try to lump EBM in with synthpop, the same way you do about EBM and industrial. I don't mind, but I think you'll find many synthpop purists are as defensive about their stuff as you are about industrial.

I went thru some of my cd collection today, while there is a lot of 4/4 dance songs....most synthpop albums are pretty varied. Depeche Mode rarely has any dance songs on their newer albums, for example.

[sinmantyx]

All awesome, all I have is The Labyrinth sound track...  plus the album of remixes of The Magic Dance haha.  Ooh and Close Encounters of the Third Kind that I got from High School when they were throwing tons of it out.  Also Parlement and a Led Zepp 45 that was scratched beyond recognition, but it looks nice on my wall.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I almost forgot...my Soft Cell lp...of course, the one with Tainted Love. They were my husband's fave band ever....still peaved that they bailed on their come-back performance in Chicago...ON MY HUSBAND'S 30th BIRTHDAY!!!

I wonder where you would put them genre-wise....synthpop or new-wave?!

Iheartnewwave

...cause androgeny makes me hot.

[Fierce Critter]

And here I thought that huge crate of minty 80's vinyl I picked up at the yard sale was worthless...

...goes to check eBay...

[phee]

Iheartdeathmetal

Me 2 my friend...

BTW keep up the debate... I find it very entertaining.... OK I am going to go put some shit in my CD player now

[Daniel]

If I feel like I could produce what I am listening to in the course of about 15 minutes of suck...it is difficult to admire.

This is elitists.  I couldn't imagine what I would be like if I actually books shows and was sent CD after CD of compositions.  I am also a bitch when it comes to poetry. 

All I can say is... "amen". This pretty much covers it. When I go to City Club, I hear hours worth of music I could write myself rather easily.

The irony here is that you object to certain bands being labeled as industrial and then you wrongly put non synthpop bands in the synthpop genre.  

You just don't read my posts. Re-read it. I already said all of this. I can barely tell the difference between EBM, synthpop, futurepop, etc. It all sounds the same to me. I go to City Club and hear the same song for four hours. About the only differences I can tell are maybe BPM, vocal production, maybe the overall level of distortion usage... I think that's all. My point of listing all of that stuff is simply to demonstrate that I have tons of exposure to it. And I have much, much more than that. I still can't tell any of it apart. But, I definitely know industrial, and I know that none of that stuff belongs in it.

I probably won't continue to discuss this. It is difficult for me to do so when people only zero in on a detail of the post and ignore everything else (which of course, changes the meaning of the detail if you take it out of context), causing me to have to rewrite things for clarity. I love the topic, but trying to reword the same point over and over is sort of a waste of time. You're welcome to email me at dt10111@yahoo.com to continue the discussion, where board politics won't intervene in the discussion.

However, a dude on my LJ friend list just posted a rant that more or less sums up how I feel about "industrial", and felt it is worth sharing:

http://www.livejournal.com/users/vaneck/161856.html

The important part I'd like to highlight:

"industrial is a mind set, perpetually evolving, an open minded diy concept and approach to music that goes against the grain and defies standards, combining elements of naturally occurring rhythms, structures, found sounds, abused instruments, hacked technology, bent circuits, and anything else that produces sound waves and noise."

Whether or not I like EBM/synthpop/whatever really was never my point. My point is that they are not, very simply, industrial in anyway. I mean... not at all. Why? Because "industrial" is more of an approach, less than a style, and the aesthetic is completely lost on EBM/et al. The primary 'industrial' quality is going against convention in extreme ways, which none of these newer supposedly "industrial" genres or artists adhere to. In fact, they are so close to trance, they ARE the convention. It is so ironic and simple that there really isn't even anything to debate. It wasn't my intention to let the discussion go towards my opinion of EBM/et al, it just somehow managed to do that.

A similar dissection of "goth" could be made, but I'm not quite as versed in that, and wouldn't feel right trying to break it down to that level of detail. I do like a LOT of goth music, but more in the classical/ethereal vein of things.

PS. A funny story about going through that promo stuff with the other local promoters is that... I went through it all, sent them the bands they submitted that I felt fit in with our vision the best (I even felt I was giving in more than I should), and their reply was "THERE'S NO SYNTHPOP!! WE MUST REPREZENT, Y0!!" I thought, "Holy shit man, all that stuff sounded the same. What could possibly not be represented?? Four-to-the-floor is covered"! This ended up being a source of tension there, too. Oddly, I did rather enjoy System 22.

[Fierce Critter]

Funny thing is, I could say the same thing about industrial - it all sounds the same to me.

I think you really have to be in to a kind of music to be able to differentiate the sometimes subtle differences. I'm not into industrial, so I can't do so. But I am into EBM/synthpop/etc., and while a lot of it DOES blur from one label to another, I can tell the difference 'cause I take the time to listen to it enough, and like it enough, to hear the differences.

Vive la differance.

[Daniel]

Funny thing is, I could say the same thing about industrial - it all sounds the same to me.

Nor does this bother me. Shit, I listen to tons of ambient and noise, and I would be shocked if you could tell the difference between any of that, and those tracks often run 20 minutes in length! No one should be out looking for approval of their musical tastes.

My point has little to do with my opinion of EBM/et al. Somehow that got forced into being a topic, and it wasn't my intention. My point is that those genres are NOT industrial. Like I've said repeatedly, people like what they like, and I am fine with that. I think lots of music is horrible, but people like it. I mean, come on, people like polka, why shouldn't some people like trance? I'm not trying to discourage people from liking what they like. Im saying that EBM/et al isn't industrial, for good or for ill.