What is your favorite Goth subgenre?

[phee]

Polka anyone?

[Fierce Critter]

I love Polka.

And I know who stole the keishka.

[sinmantyx]

For the first first years, noise tended to sound the same...after a while though, when you listen to enough and become familiar with individual styles of different artists you are able to distinquish more. This is good old fashion human nature/psychology. We only use as much info as we need to differentiate, until forced to differentiate between like things, we don't actually process and commit to memory those subtle differences.

btw...silvablood or whatever the hell that was, was the absolutely worst crap I have ever listened to in my entire life. My heart goes out to you.

I wonder what goth-polka would sound like? I can wrap my brain around goth-waltzes....but not polka?! Cause isn't a polka just an up-beat waltz?

umm..pa..pa....

ummm.....pa ....pa......

Iheartwaltzes....

Cause grandma and grandpa have to get their freak-on too.

[Daniel]

Sivablood is simultaneously the best thing, and the worst thing I have ever heard in my life.

[FarrIL]

Maybe I can get a better definition on this forum than I could EVER on the Detroit City Club forum.......

What ARE the differences between Synthpop, Techno, EBM, Darkwave, etc?

I was bitched at because I said VNV Nation (( whom I happen to love )) sounded like Techno-Industrial. At least 2 people whined and barked at me, telling me to NEVER call VNV Nation 'industrial' again.....ever after I flat-out said VNV Nation had more techno to it than anything else.

To me, if I like it, I listen to it. I will listen to classical if I damn well feel like it. if I want a preppy beat, sure, I'll put Britney Spears in my CD player. GASP!! I listen to pop!! What's yer point? I listen to Rap and SOME (( keyword "some" )) R&B. Willa Ford, Dream, chicks like that, I like dancing too. Plus that, I can sing better.

Anywho, yeah, so.....I realize that Nine Inch Nails is apparently THE example to use when defining Industrial, but what genre would Marilyn Manson be? Industrial-Rock? The new set of heavy Glamour rock? What? To me, Industrial-rock is CellDweller. Good band too. ;3

So, what is Synthpop? What is EBM? What is Darkwave? And give me examples of which!! oO

[Daniel]

Maybe I can get a better definition on this forum than I could EVER on the Detroit City Club forum.......

What ARE the differences between Synthpop, Techno, EBM, Darkwave, etc?

I was bitched at because I said VNV Nation (( whom I happen to love )) sounded like Techno-Industrial.  At least 2 people whined and barked at me, telling me to NEVER call VNV Nation 'industrial' again.....ever after I flat-out said VNV Nation had more techno to it than anything else.

To me, if I like it, I listen to it.  I will listen to classical if I damn well feel like it.  if I want a preppy beat, sure, I'll put Britney Spears in my CD player.  GASP!!  I listen to pop!!  What's yer point?  I listen to Rap and SOME (( keyword "some" )) R&B.  Willa Ford, Dream, chicks like that, I like dancing too.  Plus that, I can sing better.

Anywho, yeah, so.....I realize that Nine Inch Nails is apparently THE example to use when defining Industrial, but what genre would Marilyn Manson be?  Industrial-Rock?  The new set of heavy Glamour rock?  What?  To me, Industrial-rock is CellDweller.  Good band too.  ;3

So, what is Synthpop?  What is EBM?  What is Darkwave?  And give me examples of which!!  oO

Nine Inch Nails really isn't industrial. I maintain that "industrial" is a long dead genre that has been bastardized by people throwing any ol' junk in there they feel fits. But, if you study the history behind 'industrial', it was/is a genre used to identify gritty, abbrasive music that defies traditionaly musical conventions. It is not pleasent to listen to, so if what you are listening to is a good song, it probably isn't industrial. The idea of "indutrial-rock" or "industrial-techno" is a bit contradictory, because rock and techno are pretty standard conventions, thus elemenating the primary 'industrial' charactistic.

EBM is your typical "industrial-techno" stuff. It was more or less established by Front 242, and is sort of gritty electro stuff, with sold synth lines, mid-to-high BPMs, maintaining a steady dance beat. It tends to be dark, with very gritty vocals.

Synthpop and future pop would probably be better explained by someone else. To me, it is basically EBM minus the gritty stuff, and employing different lyrical/vocal approaches. Tends to be more sappy, imo. But again, someone else might be better off explaining it.

As a joke, I once wrote a synthpop track. Then, I upped the BPM 15 points, and applied some distortion, and made myself an EBM track. Then I upped it 15 more BPM, and applied heavy distortion and made myself a power noise track. Then I applied a solid, heavy clipping distorition and made a noise track. I may release that sometime for shits and giggles.

Calling any of those 'industrial' is sort of a faux pas in many circles, and is otherwise down right inaccurate.

Techno isn't a very good term to use except as a very, very general catch all, and you will typically earn contempt calling any music "techno". Even Moby doesn't like to be called techno. There are more "techno" genres than you would ever be able to imagine, unless you are into that stuff pretty heavily. There are some specific electronic styles that qualify as actual "techno", including a lot of the sounds popularized by the older Detroit scene. But, calling EBM or drum and bass "techno" is about the same as calling punk music "Rock n roll".

[Fierce Critter]

Damn good explanations, Daniel.

And the thing is, I can't stand it when CC gets too techno. I can hear the difference between what I consider EBM/synthpop/etc and techno, and I definitely don't like it when techno gets played.

[JaneDead]

this is the best derailed thread.

i got two turn tables and a microphone....

i have a hard time picking a favorite anything when it comes to music. so i usually have to break it down by what i would want to listen to at home/in the car, what i would want to dance to/hear at a bar, what i would want to see in concert etc. i definately have preferences there.

and the fact that i have a very hard time classifiying music as a "genre" i can't even choose one and say i like this one, because of this band and this band and this band. i am quite certain that something i think is "industrial" or "ebm" really might not be. it would be nice to have more knowledge in that regard to music, but for now i will stick to what i like and try to avoid most stuff my husband likes cuz i can't stand it.

i'm like critter, vocals do it for me or kill it for me. i don't always need vocals but vocals make it or break it alot of the time for me.

critter - i think you and i would have a great time listening to some 80's music together and talking all things 80's. that is still where my heart is.

[Fierce Critter]

Amen, sister. :grin:

I still have my armload of multi-colored rubber bracelets, a Cyndi Lauper-style jacket and some Dale Bozzio-style face paint. We'll have to hit up an 80's night sometime when I get back.

[FarrIL]

Actually, I just remembered something......

I DID know of an Industrial band...............and it scared the crap out of me when I first heard them.....

"Throbbing Gristle". My friend Dan made me listen to 'Hamburger Lady' and I swear, I admit to being afraid of the dark for weeks thereafter because of the voices in the background.

Scary as effing hell. OO

And Dan, thank you very much for the definitions. I really needed that. ;D

[TomCat]

Is being a death metal/EBM group a true subgenre??

[Daniel]

Throbbing Gristle really is the "industrial" archtype, IMO. I mean, they founded Industrial Records, and really empitomize the approach, aesthetic and style of "industrial".

Again, personally, I think "industrial" as a genre or musical description is nearly dead and irrelevent. I even think calling Skinny Puppy "industrial" is a bit of a stretch, though an acceptable one. Anyone who would be doing something like TG now would be conventional, and thus betraying the whole idea of "industrial". This is why they terminated the mission. They saw the trend of the "industrial person", angry people wearing army clothes, camos, all black, etc, as becoming too trendy, and thus too conventional. This was in 1981.

I actually highly recommend reading "The Wreckers of Civilization", which is about Throbbing Gristle and COUM Transmissions, the pre-TG performance art group of Genesis P-Orridge, et al. It is very fascinating.

[JaneDead]

i may have missed it in here but what would skinny puppy be classified as? i really just don't know and never really thought about it before.

[Daniel]

I, somewhat reluctantly, let older Puppy slide as "industrial", because they were pretty edgy at the height of their career. Musically, not as much, but their whole stage show, etc, was quite edgy. And their sound didn't really fit in anywhere else, which makes it somewhat unconventional, even though there were a number of acts doing roughly similar things at the time (Coil, Severed Heads, even Attrition, etc). I think at the time they were being classified as "post-punk", whatever that means.

What Skinny Puppy is doing now is just electronic based rock of some variety. It lacks any real edge, and is completely conventional. The song writing is fairly competent, and the production skills are mighty, but... it is completely unmemorable. Too bad, I used to practically worship that band.

[Daniel]

And, for the record, I do like a lot of "techno". Specifically, I love breakcore/noisecore, drum n bass, jungle, ragga(!), IDM, power noise, rave, trip hop, all sorts of mash-up stuff, about any electronics that blends traditional ethnic instruments, ambient, and so on and so forth. I was a classic "rivethead" in the early 90s, wearing all black listening to all the Skinny Puppy, Chemlab and Neubautin I could. Now, I dislike about anything associated with "industrial", excepting the Ant-Zen sort of stuff. I really can't stand EBM, synthpop, futurepop, etc.

On the goth side of things, I like bits and pieces from the deathrock/gothrock vein of things (have dated a lot of old school goth girls, it grows on you eventually, though I still don't like the Sisters), particularly loving Miranda Sex Garden, Human Drama and Swans. I love ethereal stuff, like Dead Can Dance, Rajna, Unto Ashes, Arcana, etc. I love, love, love the dark folk stuff, ala Current 93, Death in June, etc. I like most of the harder to classify avante garde stuff like Coil, Diamanda Galas, etc. But, my favorite is the dark orchestral stuff that blends gritty industrial elements with ethereal gothic instruments, ambient experimentations into really lush compositions. I love any artist that employs deep, rumbly percussion, like timpani drums mixed with Neubautin like percussion. Some favorites there include Shinjuku Theif, Sophia, and a host of other things from Cold Meat Industries.

Outside of that, I really love a lot of this post-rock stuff like Godspeed You! Black Emperor and Rachel's. I love most of the stuff on Constellation Records, and have been listened to a lot of this band called Black Ox Orkestar who composes this really dark and rich easter European folk-ish music. It sounds like dark gypsy music, and though the vocals are in Yiddish, it sounds so passionate that it just turns my soul inside out. I also get into a ton of the Ninja Tune stuff, with the jazz breaks, avante gaurde hip hop, etc.

I've found I don't focus on genres nearly as much as I do record labels, these days. There are a host of different styles on different labels, but there is also usually something fairly consistent present that unifies the different sounds of the artists.

[Black Sunday]

Throbbing Gristle really is the "industrial" archtype, IMO. I mean, they founded Industrial Records, and really empitomize the approach, aesthetic and style of "industrial".

Again, personally, I think "industrial" as a genre or musical description is nearly dead and irrelevent. I even think calling Skinny Puppy "industrial" is a bit of a stretch, though an acceptable one.  Anyone who would be doing something like TG now would be conventional, and thus betraying the whole idea of "industrial". This is why they terminated the mission. They saw the trend of the "industrial person", angry people wearing army clothes, camos, all black, etc, as becoming too trendy, and thus too conventional. This was in 1981.

I actually highly recommend reading "The Wreckers of Civilization", which is about Throbbing Gristle and COUM Transmissions, the pre-TG performance art group of Genesis P-Orridge, et al. It is very fascinating.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You seem to think that anytime something evolves or mutates then it loses all roots to the original genre.

VNV Nation is obviously influenced by industrial acts like KMFDM, at least in their earlier days. You might be offended that it's mostly trance music dominating their sound when some have identified as industrial, but that doesn't make it so.

Then you lump ebm in with another genre which is only semi-related to (synthpop) and when I call you on it you claim that you already said it's not the same genre....right after saying it all sounds the same.

I've got news for you - you don't own the definition of industrial. By your definitions you've used here then Skinny Puppy is not industrial. Only 8 or 9 bands in the history of music would fit under the guise of 'industrial'.

I'll say it one last time, VNV Nation is not an industrial band, but they are obviously influenced by Nettwerk records and it's like 1/3rd of their early sound, when combined with trance and synthpop it comes out different than any of those sounds.

I think you'll be better off just letting people identify Front 242, Young Gods, Frontline Assembly, KMFDM and Non Aggression Pact as 'industrial'. You may have your definition and that's fine, but the rest of the world has moved on past thinking only throbbing gristle is industrial. I don't go thread hi-jacking everytime someone calls VNV Nation 'synthpop' so I'm not sure why you felt the need to do it.

[Daniel]

Things certainly can evolve or mutate, but when they do so in a manner that is inconsistent with the orignal idea, it ceases to be the old idea and suddenly becomes a new one. Even look at "evolution". When speaking in terms of animal evolution, when a species changes to a certain extent, it becomes a new species. Birds evolved from reptiles, but we don't continue to call them reptiles because they are a new, different thing. Do they share similar roots? Yes, and that is where it ends.

Again, I'm not saying there isn't a place for this "new" stuff. All I am saying is that the world has moved past the extinct dinosaur that is "industrial". If you want to keep calling dogs and cats dinosaurs, by all means, procede. People abusing the english language is hardly a new thing. I don't own the word "industrial" any more than I own the word "dinosaur", but I can certainly explain to you what it means.

"Only 8 or 9 bands in the history of music would fit under the guise of 'industrial'."

This is likely true. The primary characteristic of 'industrial' is its lack of convention. As soon as that lack of convention became a convention, it ruined the idea behind it. This happened a long time ago.

Also, if you look back, I didn't originally derail this thread. It seems you are the only one in opposition to it going the way it has. Everyone else seems to be having fun with it.

[Black Sunday]

Ok fine, but I really wanted this thread to go another direction, I think a new thread could have been started for going off topic. But I don't own the boards and I'm not a moderator so who knows....

so if less than 20 bands fit the definition of industrial, what would you call all those bands I mentioned above? It may be 'pop industrial' or 'neo-industrial' but I really don't care about semantics, everyone at the clubs calls it industrial so I just go with it.

But really I don't think too many people consider VNV Nation to be industrial. Same with someone like Meat Beat Manifesto, there are a few bits of influence of cabaret voltaire or even merzbow in Jack Dangers music, but when you throw that many influences into the stew it comes out sounding completely different.

By the way, I'm not even a big fan of VNV Nation. I like one song alot and a few others but overall I think they sound fairly generic. It's almost as if they bought a preprogrammed synth software and added vocals over it.

[FarrIL]

What songs from VNV Nation do you like?

I'm all for "Beloved"......that song is just gorgeous. "Saviour", the vocals version, I've made one of my personal themes as it speaks of someone finding their ideal 'God' but in the end the person finds it a rather painful and futile journey. In this sense, to me, it talks about trying to be the ideal child........and I chose not to do it anymore. I cant and wont be their ideal Saviour anymore. (( wow, that sounds angsty...... oO )) I also like "Darkangel" and ended up making it the theme for my character Fenris KinderChild, because it describes her in how she puts others before herself and chooses to help them fix their problems before she tends to her own. She doesnt make it her life's duty, but it's right up there.

I'm also quite partial to "Standing", "Carbon", "Fearless" and a few others. "Paint it Black" sounds a lot like Techno.....though that's not a problem. ;D

Oh, and I have another question......... What genre would the Cruxshadows be classified under?

[TomCat]

I think I've discovered a new Goth Subgenre. Kids, hold onto your hats, it's new bands that steal shamelessly from the mid-later 80s bands (Sisters of Mercy, Bauhaus, depeche Mode, and The Cure, etc..) Yet, state thet they clearly have no idea who those bands are. Damn these arrogant kids, I could just kick them in the temple with my Doc Martens...

[FarrIL]

Er? I think you just confused me.... ;_;

[Black Sunday]

What songs from VNV Nation do you like?

I'm all for "Beloved"......that song is just gorgeous.  "Saviour", the vocals version, I've made one of my personal themes as it speaks of someone finding their ideal 'God' but in the end the person finds it a rather painful and futile journey.  In this sense, to me, it talks about trying to be the ideal child........and I chose not to do it anymore.  I cant and wont be their ideal Saviour anymore.  (( wow, that sounds angsty...... oO ))  I also like "Darkangel" and ended up making it the theme for my character Fenris KinderChild, because it describes her in how she puts others before herself and chooses to help them fix their problems before she tends to her own.  She doesnt make it her life's duty, but it's right up there.

I'm also quite partial to "Standing", "Carbon", "Fearless" and a few others.  "Paint it Black" sounds a lot like Techno.....though that's not a problem.  ;D

Oh, and I have another question......... What genre would the Cruxshadows be classified under?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

By the way, despite this debate you can label VNV Nation anything you'd like. If you hear 'industrial techno' then it's industrial techno to you. I don't mind that label by the way. I call it future pop, but to each their own, no one owns definitions and no one is an all emcompassing owner of genre placing.

[paradox]

incommunicability!

It is so! (If you think so).

[Daniel]

Ok fine, but I really wanted this thread to go another direction, I think a new thread could have been started for going off topic.  But I don't own the boards and I'm not a moderator so who knows....

so if less than 20 bands fit the definition of industrial, what would you call all those bands I mentioned above?  It may be 'pop industrial' or 'neo-industrial' but I really don't care about semantics, everyone at the clubs calls it industrial so I just go with it. 

But really I don't think too many people consider VNV Nation to be industrial.  Same with someone like Meat Beat Manifesto, there are a few bits of influence of cabaret voltaire or even merzbow in Jack Dangers music, but when you throw that many influences into the stew it comes out sounding completely different.

By the way, I'm not even a big fan of VNV Nation.  I like one song alot and a few others but overall I think they sound fairly generic.    It's almost as if they bought a preprogrammed synth software and added vocals over it.

Industrial is a pretty specific niche. Most of that stuff you listed is some sort of electronic rock. I used to like a lot of it, and still like some. I love The Young Gods. I met them once. Sort of a long story, but they hooked me up with tons of guest passes for multiple stops on the tour with Ministry. How bands that use electronics and a rock guitar ever got roped into 'industrial' is confusing. I think a lot of it comes from Waxtrax, and a lot of actual "industrial" musicians getting involved in projects that were otherwise not at all industrial, but got labeled as such because of affiliation. It is this, and many other reasons, I think "industrial" should just be put to rest. It meant something at one point, and now, something can be called "industrial" due to the specific musicians making the music, or because the most common demographic wears vinyl pants and googles on their head, or any other strange and non-music related reasons. Doesn't make any sense to me. But, I will nitpick over semantics all day, obviously. =)

FLA and Front 242 are definitely EBM. Front 242 IS EBM. Didn't they establish the term? Of was it Nitzen Ebb?

By the way, you seem to be the only person I have ever crossed paths with that seems to really think there is a difference between future pop and synth pop. What IS the difference? I've been trying to figure this out for some time now. I honestly have no clue, and I've asked a thousand people a hundred different times, and no one knows. I treat them as the same thing more as a default, because I have no clue.

[Daniel]

By the way, despite this debate you can label VNV Nation anything you'd like.  If you hear 'industrial techno' then it's industrial techno to you. 

Sort of like, if you want to call cats and dogs dinosaurs, then they are dinosaurs to you. =) Nevermind that language is used to communicate with people, and using it ineffectively makes it harder to be understood.