What is your favorite Goth subgenre?

[Black Sunday]

Influenced by Phee's thread in the movies forum.....

......ok no debate here on what is and isn't goth.....just tell me what is the style of music you're most into that is related to the 'goth' scene?

"Classic Goth" like Bauhaus, Sisters of Mercy, Clan of Xymox, Lycia

"Industrial" like Skinny Puppy, KMFDM, Ministry

"EBM or Future Pop" like Apoptygma Bezerk, VNV Nation, Covenant

"Synthpop" like Depeche Mode, De/Vision, Wolfsheim

"other" please explain

[Head Wreck]

industrial

kmfdm, razed in black thier what dragged me into this

i tell a lie. it was the cramps, but some of the cramps AG group mods got me into industrial

[paradox]

industrial/EMB

im tempted to add /classic too. im so indiscriminate

probably industrial 1st

[phee]

Industrial/EBM

Death/Black Metal

Good topic!

[Troy Spiral (13)]

I still try to fight The Machine occasionally but i fired up a Joy Division album the other day and i have to say it took me a good 5 hours to "get back into it" >hangs head in shame:blushing:

For ages i fought against the Onslaught Of The Machine. The corruption of "traditional gothic" by other more danceable and technologically "progressive" types of music. I liked my Goth and my Synth and My Industiral seprate.

But im now , ala 1984, I almost fully converted to the Cult of The Programmer. Much to my irritation.

If we can (yeah right) break it down to Goth/Industrial/EBM/Synth... And, if forced, I would probably have to say "EBM" is what i most listen to , the slick, post-modern bastard child of Goth , industrial, synth and techno. (and EBM itself slowly being assmilated directly into The Borg Collective .. er i mean Techno) :laughing: :doh:

Nowadays im much more likely to be listening to Apop or VNV than Nick Cave or Siouxsie. :ermm:

(yes the above is a bit tounge in cheek)

[Daniel]

I've never cared for this idea that "industrial" is related to goth in anyway besides some cross over in audience, and have never cared for EBM or synth pop being considered derived from goth and/or industrial, and since this thread seems to not want to focus on that discussion and include any crap people might think qualifes as 'goth', my answer is:

Polkacore

[Head Wreck]

ooh switchblade symphony... never tire of that

collegues in work find it disturbing too, so i get peace and quiet when i put it on in the library as everyone vacates

[Daniel]

I can't decide!!! 

Actually, if ANY genre of music uses classical orchestra samples (or actual orchestra) or a choir- I'm hooked.  I like classical music and opera on their own all right, but when mixed with industrial music.... oo... with me it can't go wrong.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I could turn you onto much stuff. The new Venetian Snares CD is all based around these fantastic orchestral themes. I can't stop listening to it. Anything Shinjuku Thief is amazing... more like neo-classical with industrial elements. Sophia is like classical percussion mixed with heavy militaristic and industrial themes. Dark as fuck. I could keep on with the classical-oriented music discussion for some time. A very large portion of my CD collection sits in this vein of things.

[Fierce Critter]

Tie between EBM & Synthpop.

Child of the 80's, who still counts new wave as her favorite sound. So it kinda follows.

[LuluVox]

First, it must be said that Daniel has the best avatar ever.

Second, I've always tended to stick with the 'classics'... Joy Division, The Cure, Siouxsie, Bauhaus, The Birthday Party, Cranes, Swans, etc. (but then where do bands like Throbbing Gristle and Legendary Pink Dots fit in? Yeah, they're kinda industrial-y or proto-industrial-y, but I don't like to label them really because everything seems slightly wrong). Those were my first tastes of goth, and I guess I became pretty attached and protective of those bands pretty quickly. I've actually been very reluctant to wear the label "goth" (especially while I was growing up in Georgia, because there was absolutely no scene whatsoever and the connotations with the label were pretty ridiculous/horrible). I just find labels stifling for the most part, especially when people (usually the people doing the labeling most readily) don't really understand what the label brings with it / doesn't bring with it. I don't know. I could go seriously off-topic about labels, but then, it's almost a pointless argument because it's so opinion/philosophy based, so I'll drop it.

But anyway, the longer I've stayed around the ... scene, I guess, the more I've gotten used to the more blatant EBM stuff, but I must say, a lot (most) of it still gets on my nerves. It's useful for dancing sometimes, but some other times, I find that it's not even useful for that. Not to be a snob, but much EBM seems tired and maddeningly samey to me. I know it could be super-fantastic if it wanted to, and some of it I do like, but... maybe I'm just missing the good stuff.

Okay, so, that was kinda/sorta on-topic, eh?

Oh, but wait a second... I've always been in love with Depeche Mode and New Order.

[paradox]

im going to go completely off-topic and im not even going to apologize! : :laughing:

catgories. yes, everyone wants to not mention it but its becoming pretty obvious here rather quickly that its hard to say which catagory(s) you like because so many things dont neatly fit in the boxes theyre supposed to go in. its a human thing to catagorize, its what our brains are made to do. we see/hear/experience something and we process that information and break it down into parts an dlabel it so that we can try to understand it and communicate it to others.

thats what catagories are all about, making something communicable by putting a common identity on it.

the problem of course comes in when peoples catagories conflict or when something fits easily into many or no catagories. it becomes difficult to express exactly what something is if you cant communicate it in a commonly understood fashion.

similarly, it bogs thinsg down unnecessarily to create too many catagories and can also cause confusion.

and so here we are, trying to discuss generes of music that are commonly closely associated and often cross-catagorized. we are further frustrated by trying to pick just one, or even a few and yet still represent our tastes musically in a way others will be able to comprehend in the manner in which we meant it. so people instead list bands rather than genres or multiple genres or aspects of genres or music in general in an attempt to express themselves without explaining themselves, or more accurately, their catagorizations in relation to the music in question, which in turn leads to misunderstanding or the fear thereof.

now, of course, ive had a few pints today, so you might not understand what im trying to get at (ahha!) or maybe im just full of it. in any event, i must fall back on pirandello and blame it all on the incommunicability of human language!

:

[Daniel]

First, it must be said that Daniel has the best avatar ever.

w3rd!

but then where do bands like Throbbing Gristle and Legendary Pink Dots fit in? Yeah, they're kinda industrial-y or proto-industrial-y, but I don't like to label them really because everything seems slightly wrong

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Throbbing Gristle IS INDUSTRIAL. Period. "Industrial music, for industrial people". In fact, a huge argument could be made that says that's where it began, and that's where it ended. After all, they founded Industrial Records. When people say "Industrial", Throbbing Gristle pops in my head immediately. When anyone says that 00ntz stuff like VNV Nation is industrial, it makes my skin crawl. Merzbow is closer to industrial, to me, than even Skinny Puppy. These days, I think anything you want to call "industrial" works. If VNV is industrial, so is Weird Al and Michael Jackson.

LPD's mid-career stuff (Crushed Velvet Apocalypse, Maria Dimension, etc) was pretty gothy, but otherwise, they are definitely a weird band to catagorize.

In reply to paradox's comment: What you say can be true in certain techno catagories (start digging into the trance subgenres). The difference between EBM, Industrial and Goth, to me, is extremely obvious. If there is a difference between synthpop and future pop, it is totally lost on me.

[LuluVox]

Throbbing Gristle IS INDUSTRIAL. Period. "Industrial music, for industrial people".  In fact, a huge argument could be made that says that's where it began, and that's where it ended. After all, they founded Industrial Records. When people say "Industrial", Throbbing Gristle pops in my head immediately.

I think they definitely are industrial in the purest sense of the word. It's just that now "industrial" includes so much stuff, that when I try to fit them into that category now, it feels weird. The same can be said for bands like Einstürzende Neubauten... back in the early days, maybe they were industrial (again, in the purest sense), but now... they just don't fit in. I don't know. Labels bother me.

[Daniel]

Labels are fine, but 'industrial' has become more bastardized than any genre in existence. Like I said, about anything can be called industrial these days. And I say Weird Al is industrial!

[paradox]

In reply to paradox's comment: What you say can be true in certain techno catagories (start digging into the trance subgenres). The difference between EBM, Industrial and Goth, to me, is extremely obvious.  If there is a difference between synthpop and future pop, it is totally lost on me.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

yes, exactly, 'to you'. its all a matter of perspective, yes?

i was going to link to a wikipedia page that had a rather extensive breakdown of industiral subgenres to the point of near absurdity, but it appears to have been taken down, though you may see some disagreement over said article here.

me personally, i avoid musical catagorization like the plague whenever i can. im not a 'music person by any stretch. unfortunantly that makes it hard to discuss music with people unless they are already familiar with said music. what sometimes makes for interesting conversation though is when the other person doesnt agree with your own catagorization (as we have here, in at least some degree). you personally might not see much, if any difference in trance subgenres, but there may be many who would disagree. perpective yes?

btw, how would you defend weird al as industrial?? :laughing:

[bav]

Industrial

EBM

dark soundscapes

[Daniel]

yes, exactly, 'to you'.  its all a matter of perspective, yes?

i was going to link to a wikipedia page that had a rather extensive breakdown of industiral subgenres to the point of near absurdity, but it appears to have been taken down, though you  may see some disagreement over said article here.

me personally, i avoid musical catagorization like the plague whenever i can.  im not a 'music person by any stretch.  unfortunantly that makes it hard to discuss music with people unless they are already familiar with said music.  what sometimes makes for interesting conversation though is when the other person doesnt agree with your own catagorization  (as we have here, in at least some degree).  you personally might not see much, if any difference in trance subgenres, but there may be many who would disagree.  perpective yes?

btw, how would you defend weird al as industrial?? :laughing:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Simple. If VNV Nation is industrial, then so is Weird Al.

Don't get me wrong, I understand trance subgenres. I understand most genres and why they exist. I think some are stupid because there is no point in further dividing the music up. Of course, I disagree with anyone who thinks "genres aren't necessary". If this were true, they'd be playing Garth Brooks and Tupac at City Club. Unless you like everything you hear, you are catagorizing music on your own in some capacity (at least into 'music I like' and 'music I don't like', which are based on different criteria). Genres exist to help semi-formally catagorize music universally. They also help with marketing new music to existing crowds. This works for record labels, DJs, radio stations or even normal people putting together mix discs for their friends. But, some genres break things down too far, and even the people listening to them don't really care, or often notice the differences.

"yes, exactly, 'to you'. its all a matter of perspective, yes?"

There is some degree of objectivity in place here. Most genres are labeled as such for specific qualities in the music. EBM is identified by its dancy beats, dark synth work, aggressive/distorted vocals and mid-to-high range BPMs. If it were just a "matter of perspective", some could say Garth Brooks is EBM. As it is, those people are wrong.

But that goes back to "industrial". Industrial has been so bastardized that no one can tell you, nor agree on what it is. Like I said, if you are throwing Ministry, Throbbing Gristle, VNV Nation and Merzbow all into the same genre... there is a problem. These artists have nothing in common, other than vaguely being music. I figure, if you are just going to throw any old shit in there based off of loose and insignificant qualities, hell... why can't Weird Al be industrial too? If you want an argument for a worthless genre, industrial is the most worthless genre ever. It is no wonder so many people involved with 'industrial' music dislike to idea of genres.

[soothsayer]

"Classic Goth" like Bauhaus, Sisters of Mercy, Clan of Xymox, Lycia

"Industrial" like Skinny Puppy, KMFDM, Ministry

"Synthpop" like Depeche Mode, De/Vision, Wolfsheim

These are but a few that do it for me.

[phee]

Garth Brooks is EBM

I knew it....

[sinmantyx]

Merzbow is closer to industrial, to me, than even Skinny Puppy. These days, I think anything you want to call "industrial" works. If VNV is industrial, so is Weird Al and Michael Jackson.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Holyshit..someone just mentioned Merzbow.

[Daniel]

Holyshit..someone just mentioned Merzbow.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I was trying to get him to come out to play an event we were producing last year. His written english isn't very good. I wish I had kept the email he sent me telling me how we needed to have a good, strong PA and speakers or he would blow our shit up. There is no way I could reproduce it or paraphrase it and achieve the same effect his email had.

[phee]

I love that man!!!

[Troy Spiral (13)]

Having been a "Purist" on both the old-school goth and oldschool industrial bandwagon(s) in years passed, i may not have liked it, But all the preaching aside, Like it or not Goth, Industrial , EBM and Synth, are artisticly related. They are influnced by each other. Its not just a fan-base crossover. At least for the last lets say 15-20 ish years. People may not like it , including , up until recently, myself. But, inasmuch as anything artistic can be defined "factually" , its a fact.

This is one of the "have my opnion and im going to go into the castle and pull up the drawbridge to not have my opinion changed" subjects that can really irritate people very fast. Often its a good place for the less polite people to really get their verbal-barbs flying in under the social compact radar. Usually i avoid the potenital trench-warefare subjects, in recent weeks i've returned to the fray.

Somehow i got sucked in. Noooooo :laughing:

[Troy Spiral (13)]

First, it must be said that Daniel has the best avatar ever.

Until i read this i had assumed that it was a Frank Frazetta painting. Which upon closer inspection, it is. Except some demonic rainbow bright type character has replaced the DD and the horsey has a pretty tail.

[Daniel]

Having been a "Purist" on both the old-school goth and oldschool industrial bandwagon(s) in years passed, i may not have liked it,  But all the preaching aside, Like it or not Goth, Industrial , EBM  and Synth, are artisticly related.  They are influnced by each other. Its not just a fan-base crossover.  At least for the last lets say 15-20 ish years.  People may not like it , including , up until recently, myself.  But, inasmuch as anything artistic can be defined "factually" , its a fact.

This is one of  the  "have my opnion and im going to go into the castle and pull up the drawbridge to not have my opinion changed" subjects that can really irritate people very fast.  Often its a good place for the less polite people to really get their verbal-barbs flying in under the social compact radar.  Usually i avoid the potenital trench-warefare subjects, in recent weeks i've returned to the fray. 

Somehow i got sucked in.  Noooooo  :laughing:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The drawbridge isn't up, but you coming in and saying something is a fact doesn't make is so. Maybe you just expect people to abandon their opinion or knowledge at the first sign of disagreement? I don't know. Knowing something or having an opinion doesn't make immutable, but you better have a solid standpoint if you expect to "sway" people from something they are well informed about.

There isn't any anything artistically related between VNN Nation and Merzbow. There isn't anything artistically related between Noise and Synthpop, or Goth and EBM. There isn't anything artistically related between industrial and goth, other than common crowd. And even the crowds for some of these things aren't common. I mean, can you explain what style similarities exist here? It can't be the beats. And it can't be the synth work (most goth has no synth work). It can't be the lyrics, because a lot of different artists have no lyrics at all, and saying all of the lyrics are "dark" would rope in Limp Bizkit and Eminem. What is the commonality? Do explain...