This Is Sick.

[Homicidalheathen]

Someone brought this to my attention on myspace. We are thinking of a way to protest it.

http://www.puellula.org/

[BrassFusion]

there's nothing really to protest. i guess the problem with the webmaster is that for him or her, pedophilia is as valid a sexual orientation as any other and isn't a "disorder." i can't say i COMPLETELY disagree- but our society sure isn't equipped for that point of view at the moment.

[sinmantyx]

there's nothing really to protest. i guess the problem with the webmaster is that for him or her, pedophilia is as valid a sexual orientation as any other and isn't a "disorder." i can't say i COMPLETELY disagree- but our society sure isn't equipped for that point of view at the moment.

...which is why 300 wasn't nearly as historically authentic as it could have been.

I do disagree that pedophilia is a valid sexual orientation, in that there is a certain level of objectivity concerning sexual maturity. If you REQUIRE a partner to not be sexually mature in order to function sexually - that is certainly a disorder.

Then again, I believe that ALL true "fetishes" are disorders. (Even though the word is used now to mean "kink", I'm using it in the more strict definition. A fetish is a requirement for sexual function. I may think all true fetishes are disorders, but many are not the least bit serious. I mean, chewing your nails is a disorder - doesn't mean we need to punish evil sick nail biters.)

I do think it is unreasonable to expect everyone to not be sexually attracted to anyone under 18, especially when many young people are physically sexually mature much younger. I do think it is reasonable however, for older people to act in socially acceptable ways toward young people. If they have so little control over themselves that they cannot, then that (in and of itself) is a disorder.

I think even the author of the website would agree that everyone has a responsibility to act in an acceptable way toward young people; even if his or her inclination is to act unacceptably.

[BrassFusion]

http://hfp.puellula.com/Polemic/Living.html

linked from the main site, apparently a guide to living as a pedophile. subheadings:

1. Find a Community

2. Respect Yourself

3. Manage your Depression

4. Channel your Sexuality

5. Avoid Child Pornography

6. Stay within the Law

7. Educate Yourself

8. Come out to Close Friends and Family

9. Take Positive Action

10. Take Political Action

11. Conclusion

looks good to me.

[BrassFusion]

oh, and sin- i don't want to imply that i'm disagreeing with what you said (because I actually don't), but... is it also a disorder to require that a partner is of a specific gender?

[sinmantyx]

http://hfp.puellula.com/Polemic/Living.html

linked from the main site, apparently a guide to living as a pedophile. subheadings:

1. Find a Community

2. Respect Yourself

3. Manage your Depression

4. Channel your Sexuality

5. Avoid Child Pornography

6. Stay within the Law

7. Educate Yourself

8. Come out to Close Friends and Family

9. Take Positive Action

10. Take Political Action

11. Conclusion

looks good to me.

I actually knew someone in college who was able to do pretty much all of those things. He ended up marrying an Asian woman who looked perpetually 12. That may creep people out, but he never acted on his inclinations in a criminal or even inappropriate way.

He was a libertarian...so I think he covered ALL of those things. (Unless you consider teen magazines pornography.)

I suppose it's better than allowing yourself to wallow in a pit of self-loathing until you have a stress-induced psychotic break and do something very uncool.

[sinmantyx]

oh, and sin- i don't want to imply that i'm disagreeing with what you said (because I actually don't), but... is it also a disorder to require that a partner is of a specific gender?

You know, right after I posted, I considered that question. I'm not sure. I know that sounds really weird coming from me, because it SOUNDS anti-gay --- but I guess if you took my definition to a logical extreme I would be calling all non-bisexuals disfunctional.

Why not?

In MY society, anyone with a different orientation than myself is some sort of sicko.

I wouldn't be the first person to proclaim such a thing, right?

[BrassFusion]

lol, ok... i guess i DO disagree with the idea that all fetishes are a dysfunction

but if you take that idea a few steps farther, defining "fetish" as you did... it would be a dysfunction to NOT be aroused by children attempting to sexually gratify you.

at least that's how MY twisted brain works. and for the record, before the angry mob advances, that thought makes me physically recoil

[sinmantyx]

lol, ok... i guess i DO disagree with the idea that all fetishes are a dysfunction

but if you take that idea a few steps farther, defining "fetish" as you did... it would be a dysfunction to NOT be aroused by children attempting to sexually gratify you.

at least that's how MY twisted brain works. and for the record, before the angry mob advances, that thought makes me physically recoil

Well, I suppose the defnition MUST be qualified somehow! Just a second and I'll ask the experts at MerriamWebster:

"c : an object or bodily part whose real or fantasied presence is psychologically necessary for sexual gratification and that is an object of fixation to the extent that it may interfere with complete sexual expression"

So - it has to be an object or bodily part.

There.

Saved.

It gives no requirement or lack of requirement for the whole person...by definition.

[sinmantyx]

So - it has to be an object or bodily part.

Wait.

SHIT.

A penis and a vagina are both bodily parts...so you straight and gay people are still horribly dysfunctional.

[BrassFusion]

and by that definition, bisexual pederasts are NOT fetishists!!!!

[pomba gira]

...which is why 300 wasn't nearly as historically authentic as it could have been.

I do disagree that pedophilia is a valid sexual orientation, in that there is a certain level of objectivity concerning sexual maturity. If you REQUIRE a partner to not be sexually mature in order to function sexually - that is certainly a disorder.

Then again, I believe that ALL true "fetishes" are disorders. (Even though the word is used now to mean "kink", I'm using it in the more strict definition. A fetish is a requirement for sexual function. I may think all true fetishes are disorders, but many are not the least bit serious. I mean, chewing your nails is a disorder - doesn't mean we need to punish evil sick nail biters.)

I do think it is unreasonable to expect everyone to not be sexually attracted to anyone under 18, especially when many young people are physically sexually mature much younger. I do think it is reasonable however, for older people to act in socially acceptable ways toward young people. If they have so little control over themselves that they cannot, then that (in and of itself) is a disorder.

I think even the author of the website would agree that everyone has a responsibility to act in an acceptable way toward young people; even if his or her inclination is to act unacceptably.

I agree with most of this... I do question the expectation of "socially acceptable" behavior, when what is acceptable has changed drastically within living memory. As a society, we decided only recently- VERY recently in historical terms- that it is unacceptable for a legal adult to be sexually attracted to or involved with a physically mature minor. I believe most states had "age of consent" laws on the books into the last decade or so. So I'm not sure if it's fair to punish people and label them as abnormal for not managing to update their carnal desires to match what's "acceptable". I certainly think, say, a 30-year old who has consensual sex with a fifteen year old is acting in an unethical and irresponsible fashion... but I don't believe they are some kind of sick deviant.

[sinmantyx]

I agree with most of this... I do question the expectation of "socially acceptable" behavior, when what is acceptable has changed drastically within living memory. As a society, we decided only recently- VERY recently in historical terms- that it is unacceptable for a legal adult to be sexually attracted to or involved with a physically mature minor. I believe most states had "age of consent" laws on the books into the last decade or so. So I'm not sure if it's fair to punish people and label them as abnormal for not managing to update their carnal desires to match what's "acceptable". I certainly think, say, a 30-year old who has consensual sex with a fifteen year old is acting in an unethical and irresponsible fashion... but I don't believe they are some kind of sick deviant.

I usually place the "sick deviant" label based on sexual maturity, not on an arbitrary age. There was one girl who would come to social events who routinely lied about her age and was successful because she was taller than most 12 year olds. We finally had to tell her not to show up anymore. The way she acted made everyone feel very uncomfortable and we were scared to death that someone in our circle of friends wouldn't "get the memo" and wind up in jail for the rest of his natural life. *She* was definitely the one that had serious problems, not anyone who might be unwittingly caught-up in her issues. I highly doubt the law would have seen it that way however.

I'm using "acceptable" basically as a euphamism for NOT doing unmentionable things with those much to young to understand the situation. I'm not using the word "acceptable" to mean that the mainstream has to somehow approve completely. Trust me, I've had plenty of relationships that would be squarely placed into the socially unacceptable catagory by the majority.

[Scary Guy]

Yeah, I apparently know way too many of these types of people. Believe me I do want them to get shot and it saddens me that they're that perverted. However I fear that hate and distrust fueling aggression towards them (and terrorists as well) will make it easier to write them off as human beings and heard them into camps like the Nazis did to the Jews.

Specifically... the yellow license plates that were proposed (and put into action?) in Ohio. Then they came up with pink ones for sex offenders (which was proposed but I don't believe put into action). I figure after they do put it into action the next step is a pink patch on their jackets. Then it's into the pedoven they go.

[sinmantyx]

A case exists where a man, who had sex with his girlfriend when she was 16 and he was 18; and they are now happily married --- was prosecuted for a "sex crime" and now routinely gets death threats from idiots who find his name on "the list" and call him up.

The scenario you mentioned is already close to reality. "Camps" are being set up by groups listees just so they have a place to sleep.

My husband and I met in high school. He is 2 and a half years older than me. According to the current laws of the state that we lived in, he was a "sex offender" between his birthday and my birthday every year. We weren't having sex, but if we were --- he would have been branded a rapist by the state. You have no idea how much that angers me.

IT'S DUMB --- and plenty of people are on that list: being abused by an ignorant public, being forced out of housing and employment --- only crime was either being deceived, not knowing some arbitrary law that changes every couple of years, or mutually sexually touching someone they LOVED.

Of course, that's not everyone on the list. There are some scary folks on there I'm sure. IF someone is dangerous enough that they should not be on the street....take them off the damn street. If someone has such a sexual dysfunction that they are unwilling or unable to control themselves and commit a horrible crime against another human being--- they should be in one of two places: jail or a mental institution.

THE END.

Either don't let them out or leave them the fuck alone. Any sort of restrictions should be part of an individual sentence, instead of implementing some reactionary over-zealous indiscriminate magnet for violent obsessed vigilantes.

[pomba gira]

A case exists where a man, who had sex with his girlfriend when she was 16 and he was 18; and they are now happily married --- was prosecuted for a "sex crime" and now routinely gets death threats from idiots who find his name on "the list" and call him up.

The scenario you mentioned is already close to reality. "Camps" are being set up by groups listees just so they have a place to sleep.

My husband and I met in high school. He is 2 and a half years older than me. According to the current laws of the state that we lived in, he was a "sex offender" between his birthday and my birthday every year. We weren't having sex, but if we were --- he would have been branded a rapist by the state. You have no idea how much that angers me.

IT'S DUMB --- and plenty of people are on that list: being abused by an ignorant public, being forced out of housing and employment --- only crime was either being deceived, not knowing some arbitrary law that changes every couple of years, or mutually sexually touching someone they LOVED.

Of course, that's not everyone on the list. There are some scary folks on there I'm sure. IF someone is dangerous enough that they should not be on the street....take them off the damn street. If someone has such a sexual dysfunction that they are unwilling or unable to control themselves and commit a horrible crime against another human being--- they should be in one of two places: jail or a mental institution.

THE END.

Either don't let them out or leave them the fuck alone. Any sort of restrictions should be part of an individual sentence, instead of implementing some reactionary over-zealous indiscriminate magnet for violent obsessed vigilantes.

Thank you. As a teacher I think about this kind of thing a LOT and it's damn frightening. Worst part is the immediate, complete assumption of guilt by the general public when this kind of accusation is made. There was a case in this area a few years ago where an emotionally impaired 16 year old accused a teacher of sexual assault. It turned out to be a complete fabrication by this girl and an accomplice, but in the meantime the poor bastard had his name plastered all over the news, lost his job... and then died of a heart attack shortly after the truth came out. All I could think was My god, this crazy little girl drove this man to his grave- with the help of the whole community. It could happen to any of us. The "being deceived" scenario is also scary & happens more than you might think... a lot of people who don't interact with young people on a regular basis have no idea how much earlier kids mature nowadays. At least a third of the 7th & 8th graders I've dealt with could easily pass for 18. I don't want to portray these underage girls as malicious little vixens but many of them are out there engaging in adult activities and really have no concept of how much trouble they can get someone in. Kids of this age group aren't real strong on considering consequences of their actions to themselves, much less to some adult they don't give a rat's ass about anyway.

[sinmantyx]

Thank you. As a teacher I think about this kind of thing a LOT and it's damn frightening. Worst part is the immediate, complete assumption of guilt by the general public when this kind of accusation is made. There was a case in this area a few years ago where an emotionally impaired 16 year old accused a teacher of sexual assault. It turned out to be a complete fabrication by this girl and an accomplice, but in the meantime the poor bastard had his name plastered all over the news, lost his job... and then died of a heart attack shortly after the truth came out. All I could think was My god, this crazy little girl drove this man to his grave- with the help of the whole community. It could happen to any of us. The "being deceived" scenario is also scary & happens more than you might think... a lot of people who don't interact with young people on a regular basis have no idea how much earlier kids mature nowadays. At least a third of the 7th & 8th graders I've dealt with could easily pass for 18. I don't want to portray these underage girls as malicious little vixens but many of them are out there engaging in adult activities and really have no concept of how much trouble they can get someone in. Kids of this age group aren't real strong on considering consequences of their actions to themselves, much less to some adult they don't give a rat's ass about anyway.

It's a horrible scenario that happens constantly. It angers me to no end. Not only do false accusations harm those who are accused; but they also hinder real cases with the whole "cry wolf" effect.

People just have to start thinking with their heads instead of acting out of fear or from their gut reaction. The lacrosse team train-wreck is a good example: making assumptions either way, having a fit, making ridiculous characterizations, etc. I think people want everything to be easy and simple and "black-and-white"--but they aren't. If you care about the truth, you actually have to investigate the details and reserve judgment.

When the narrative of a possible crime gives a strong emotional hit; too often we simply want to side with whomever we happen to identify with the most. (...just as many people took strong "sides" in the Duke case.) It's frightening and sad. It makes an already bad situation much worse.

As far as "being deceived", I'm well aware of how much that happens. An acquaintance of mine was in jail for 3 years and is currently on the sex offenders list for making out (they did not have sex) with a 15 year old that lied about her age. If I remember correctly, he picked her up at a bar she somehow entered (probably with a fake ID). There was also a very young girl (we finally found out she was 12 or 13) who lied about her age and hung out with out social group at events. [As I mentioned earlier.] We had to tell her to leave at some point because she kept hitting on the "college guys" and we were scared to death that someone wouldn't get the "memo" and end up in jail for the rest of his life being abused by other inmates...branded as a "child molester" for touching a 13 year old that was tall for her age and claimed to be much older and had serious problems.

I hate to say it, but I think part of the issue is that many people can ONLY see young girls as victims and can not see men as victims. Guess what...sometimes men are victims...of deception, of blackmail, of emotional and physical abuse, etc...it's just not in the public's conscience. It doesn't help that the few people who do entertain this notion, generally express themselves very badly, by not simply bringing up the possibility of deception, but defaming and insulting the girl involved in the most horrible ways. Those types of statements simply inflame the public to rally to one side or the other. The gender double-standard is so horrific that adult women who abuse their positions and molest youngsters (ala. Mary Kay Letourneau) are characterized very differently from men accused of the same crime and so are the young people involved. It's really outrageous.

[Scary Guy]

Don't forget altar boys, they're victims too.

I wonder how many priests exist on the list though?

[the eternal]

I can't even believe we're having this conversation.

This isnt about an 18 year-old screwing her 17 year-old boyfriend.

This about a man wanting to have sex with kids.

Erin, really you surprise me. You have such an odd black-and white-morality view bordering on obsessiveness when it comes to Affirmative Action, and yet you're trying to see the good side of pedophiles.

Maybe you should learn a little more about racial inequality, before moving on to (apparently)

the most important civil rights quandary of today,

oppressed adults who just happen to want to rape children.

And Scary Guy I have literally never had a problem with anything you've ever said,

but don't fucking compare

the incineration of 6 million of my people to alleged measures keeping convicted felons from molesting children.

The "pedoven" has to be the most disgusting exaggeration I've ever read.

Why don't you tell that to a Holocaust survivor who watched as her dad was humiliated in front of her, and her entire family was forced into a cattle car where no one could move and all you could smell was feces, urine and the rotting flesh of people that died of dehydration, only to watch her brother be carted off to the other side where he was stripped naked and gassed in a XylonB shower,

and all she could look forward to is starvation and the hope that she could make it through to start her life without an identity or a clue as to how much of her family was tortured or killed.

Yes, I certainly see the comparison apt to putting plates on molesters cars.

Sheesh

MY .02

[sinmantyx]

This isnt about an 18 year-old screwing her 17 year-old boyfriend.

The conversation drifted from the original notion of a man having a website about his desires, to the fact that reasonable distinctions aren't made by many many people.

People don't distinguish between an inclination and an action. People don't distinguish between someone who is a sexual predator and someone who is seduced by a manipulative and deceptive 13 year old. People don't distinguish between "an 18 year-old screwing her 17 year-old boyfriend" and someone who actively tries to rape children.

The comparison that was made may have been heavy handed; but the fact remains that we are torturing, threatening, and ruining the lives of people (right now) who have not committed horrible crimes by lumping them in with the few that have...and justifying ourselves through fear and anger.

It's the truth..and I've seen it happen. ALOT

While real molesters are not reported and fail to be stopped by legal intervention (usually because they are trusted family members); we (as a society) are misplacing our anger and frustration on the crazy stranger who is an easier target...who many people claim that they would like to 1) torture 2) kill on sight and 3) are currently herding into camps. It's a total witch-hunt that really has to stop.

The distinction here is that the author of the website is explaining a desire and distinctly explaining that he has no plans to act on these desires in harmful ways. What is going on in his is brain might be very upsetting to many of us, but if those inclinations are not manifested in harmful actions, branding him as a "child rapist" is not cool.

Unless of course, you believe that thinking about or wanting something is the same as doing it. If so, I think we'd all be in prison for very long periods of time after the "Thought Police" rounded us up.

[the eternal]

Oh, I must have forgotten something.

Today is Holocaust Remembrance Day

Feel free to learn about the "other" Holocaust with these links

or read their stories

[sinmantyx]

Oh, I must have forgotten something.

I thought you just said that was horribly off-topic.

[Homicidalheathen]

This isnt about an 18 year-old screwing her 17 year-old boyfriend.

This about a man wanting to have sex with kids.

Ditto that.....

I have no problem with a 15-16 yr old dating someone under say 23 or so...if they are mature enough and ready.

When my own daughter was 16 she wanted to date a 23 yr old. I didn't want her too because he already had kids and his ex would not let him see them which was a red flag for me. It all about the situation. She hates kids, he had some he wasn't involved with and still lived at home....not in college....working p/t......just not someone want my kid involved with at that age.

Now when they were 13 sometimes old icky like 55 yr old guys would stare to the point of making them uncomfortable....and they were JUST budding if you know what I mean, a bit of late bloomers in the physical department which made it extra strange for these old perverts to be looking at them, leering at them...with those thoughts...and not even trying to hide it. As if making them uncomfortable in front of me turned them on. Well I gave dirty looks and even got vocal about it on occasion. Fuck you for making my kids feel wierd just for going out into public NOT dressed sexy at all. Ya old perv.!!!!

[the eternal]

I thought you just said that was horribly off-topic.

Well, pardon my intrusion. I simply thought it might be good to put into perspective the real Holocaust.

Besides it always shows an added insensitivity to make comments of that nature on a day like this.

Kind of like Bush rolling back civil rights on MLK's B-day.

[BrassFusion]

uh... guys... what EXACTLY could you do in good conscience and in keeping with civil liberties to combat child exploitation that hasn't happened? it's starting to sound like gattaca in here