Montana Tells Fed Gov't One Thing - Hell No

[Dubh Aingeal]

Montana's governor signed a bill yesterday in defiance of the Real ID Act. House Bill 287 [PDF] requires the Montana Motor Vehicle Division to not implement the provisions of the Real ID Act, and to report to the governor any attempts by any agent or agency of the Department of Homeland Security to attempt to implement the bill. Montana is the first state to implement such a law.

[Der Nister]

Part of me feels relieved to see this bill getting voted down, the other part of me fears all the mindless sheep (or more commonly known as Christian's) who will all be in favor of real i.d. and basically say the same thing - "if you have nothing to hide why not allow this?"

If the real i.d. law is enacted across the country the government will basically pick up the pace on their control of our so called 'free society' in the name of patriotism.

If we - the people - who these asshole politicians work for do not stand up against this tyrannical administration/government we might as well rename this country the U.S.S.A.

We won the cold war ------- or did we???

My fellow tovarishch's.

KMFDM sang

Love thy neighbor turn him in - it's called patriotism.

(From New American century)

[sass_in_the_pants]

Am I missing something? Can having a federally issued ID tell anyone anything they don't already know from my state issued ID? This sounds like a passport that also shows my driving priveledges.

[Steven]

Part of me feels relieved to see this bill getting voted down, the other part of me fears all the mindless sheep (or more commonly known as Christian's) who will all be in favor of real i.d. and basically say the same thing - "if you have nothing to hide why not allow this?"

Dude, seriously .... thats just stupid.

[odims_sphere]

Dude, seriously .... thats just stupid.

Agreed, and I'm not even a Christian.

But really what would be the problem with a federal ID? That way everyone is on the same page, you don't have to train people on 50 different ID's and try to spot fakes. What's the difference if your driver's licence is State issued or Federal issued, either way it's required to drive. It's not like if the bill isn't passed then you don't have to have one at all, it's just a different issuing authority.

[sinmantyx]

They are pissed off that they are being given an unfunded mandate. That is all.

If you want to make uniform ID cards a "freedom" issue --- to ahead. However, after living on a border town and being told by police: the criminal background check we just gave you doesn't cover anything they did in any other state so you'll have to go to that office. Considering we JUST found out that one of the school administrators that Flint hired was a convicted child molester in a different state.

I really don't think that uniformity in identification is a bad thing. It should help with information gathering of a completely valid nature.

I also remember when North Dakota had LAMINATED IDS...no shit. People between the ages of 18 and 20 would accidentally give me their fake ND "bar ID" instead of their valid ND or MN ID all the time.

As far as I can tell, it's not creating any new restriction or invasion of privacy other than those (being able to identify yourself with a form of ID) already implemented.

Aren't any of you employed? Didn't you have to cop-up some paperwork in order to legally work?

Montana just doesn't want to foot the bill and they are using "rights" as an excuse not to spend money.

Unless I missed the part where they are requiring an RFID tag: I'm not too concerned. Practically speaking this should be a good thing: especially for everyone who must legally or ethically check IDs (such as club owners, porn shop clerks, employers, etc.)

[Scary Guy]

http://action.aclu.org/privacypower/index....u20wiw21.app27a

Indeed not the best cartoon, still looking for the other one.

http://www.aclu.org/pizza/images/screen.swf jackpot.

The ACLU might be a bit on the nutty side, but they do have valid points.

Also because I love comparing everything to the Nazi's (except for jews which I compare to child molesters (lol j/k, had to)) if you translate "Papiere gefallen?" means "Papers please?"

[BrassFusion]

never did understand the big diff between a federal ID and a state one. that cartoon's bollocks... the strip on our michigan drivers licenses right now has our license number, birthdate, and address on it, and it's read-only. why is everyone paranoid that the federal government would be so much more evil than our respective state governments, and for no reason but spite?

[phee]

never did understand the big diff between a federal ID and a state one. that cartoon's bollocks... the strip on our michigan drivers licenses right now has our license number, birthdate, and address on it, and it's read-only. why is everyone paranoid that the federal government would be so much more evil than our respective state governments, and for no reason but spite?

I think it would make things a hell of a lot easier

[BrassFusion]

seriously... how many other nations DON'T have a national id card? i know canadian drivers licenses go by province, their health card i believe is national... we're a country here, not just a motley assembly of 50 states with nothing in common

[sinmantyx]

seriously... how many other nations DON'T have a national id card? i know canadian drivers licenses go by province, their health card i believe is national... we're a country here, not just a motley assembly of 50 states with nothing in common

oooo.....how federalist of you!

Wait until our ID cards have our retinal scan information on the imbedded chip; and an RFID tag to track our movements and spending habits.

-I play too much ShaddowRun 4th Ed.-

Put my DNA on file and call me by my 10 digit number.

-THEN start panicking.-

Slippery Slope arguments get old every once in a while. They are why people don't take various organizations as seriously as I hope they would...choose your battles wisely and save your strength for really horrible shit.

-starting a new thread-

[odims_sphere]

Put my DNA on file and call me by my 10 digit number.

Welcome to the army! except it's your 9 digit social securtiy number, but the DNA is on file.

No retinal scans or RFID tags yet.

[sinmantyx]

Welcome to the army! except it's your 9 digit social securtiy number, but the DNA is on file.

No retinal scans or RFID tags yet.

Soon...soon....

Actually, RFID tags would be really sweet for military use (or use for fishermen, mountain climbers or game wardens). Sometimes it's a very good thing when someone can find you.

It's just a little radio frequency tag like the ones in cars that automatically charge you toll fees (and recently automatically charge you speeding tickets!)...

...I for one would like to welcome our robot masters...

...I mean...

Some practical uses are in a bit of a gray area.

[Scary Guy]

That strip isn't read only. Anyone can get the equipment to read AND modify that if they choose (BTW that data is stored on track 2). Just like anyone can get your number if they know your name and date of birth since it's just a combination of the two.

[Der Nister]

But really what would be the problem with a federal ID? That way everyone is on the same page, you don't have to train people on 50 different ID's and try to spot fakes. What's the difference if your driver's licence is State issued or Federal issued, either way it's required to drive. It's not like if the bill isn't passed then you don't have to have one at all, it's just a different issuing authority.

So then the terrorists can't get fake federal i.d.'s? I guess you haven't learned much about what they can do.

I think it would make things a hell of a lot easier

Wow - yea ok.

Welcome to the army! except it's your 9 digit social securtiy number, but the DNA is on file.

No retinal scans or RFID tags yet.

Notice he said -- yet.

This mentality on display shows why this country is in trouble. Why think ahead about the trouble's that will be created when you can just let the government control everything?

If you're that afraid of terrorism you really should just live in the mountains removed from danger.

Wait till these people (that agree to have this done) get their cards scanned by a thief and their private info stolen and their credit stolen and they start pissing and moaning that they weren't smart enough to see this coming and why didn't someone say something sooner.

Wow - and I thought some here were more informed than this. Guess not. Enjoy having the feds in your back pocket.

[BrassFusion]

why is it always assumed that a federal ID card would carry a magnetic strip with your permanent record of everything you ever did on it? it's bs to just put the kaibosh on what's otherwise a good idea. as long as we police what we do with the technology, it'd be just like the new drivers licenses. since our fed id numbers would be too easy to forge or steal, we'd probably still defer to social security numbers for credit checks and stuff, so i doubt anyone would approve of it being stored on a fed card, and since no one would approve of it, it WOULDN'T happen. our republic isn't completely broken.

[Scary Guy]

I miss optimism...

Anyhow " why is it always assumed that a federal ID card would carry a magnetic strip with your permanent record of everything you ever did on it?" because it's the next logical step.

[BrassFusion]

No, really, it's not. No more than it's the next logical step for our driver's licenses to store that information.

[odims_sphere]

So then the terrorists can't get fake federal i.d.'s? I guess you haven't learned much about what they can do.

You're right, I don't know anything about what the terrorists can do. Thank you for pointing that out. I can die happy now knowing that Terrorists can get fake id's.

The whole point was that if there is ONE standard ID instead of 50 DIFFERENT ones, fake ones will be easier to find. Do you know every detail of every Id issued by every state?

[phee]

You're right, I don't know anything about what the terrorists can do. Thank you for pointing that out. I can die happy now knowing that Terrorists can get fake id's.

The whole point was that if there is ONE standard ID instead of 50 DIFFERENT ones, fake ones will be easier to find. Do you know every detail of every Id issued by every state?

I agree

[sinmantyx]

So then the terrorists can't get fake federal i.d.'s? I guess you haven't learned much about what they can do.

Wow - yea ok.

Notice he said -- yet.

This mentality on display shows why this country is in trouble. Why think ahead about the trouble's that will be created when you can just let the government control everything?

If you're that afraid of terrorism you really should just live in the mountains removed from danger.

Wait till these people (that agree to have this done) get their cards scanned by a thief and their private info stolen and their credit stolen and they start pissing and moaning that they weren't smart enough to see this coming and why didn't someone say something sooner.

Wow - and I thought some here were more informed than this. Guess not. Enjoy having the feds in your back pocket.

I'm sure "the terrorists" can train bears, walk on their hands and breathe fire. You can make things more difficult for people - but it is very difficult to make them impossible.

Government control everything? I want the government to be able to find information easily that they ALREADY HAVE THE LEGAL RIGHT to find.

So, identity thieves are having such a hard time operating now? Because we don't have a federal issued ID -- somehow they are having trouble attaining people's personal information? When you don't have to actually PROVE you're you in any way.

If we really cared about identity thieves - the card would include our retinal scan! Some cards already include a finger print scan (same diff, just those are easier to fake). I actually don't think that's a bad idea.

When I worked at a government facility, I had an ID that I used to get into the lab. They could scan it to make sure that it hadn't been revoked. If I lost it, they could deactivate it.

I did that when I worked at a store...when someone came in and said they "worked for corporate"...all I did was scan their card and I knew if they had been fired or their card was deactivated for any reason - like being stolen or if the information on the back had been used in an unauthorized way.

Right now -- you need NO specialized equipment to steal from someone. All I have to do is hook up with a waiter or waitress and write down all those wonderful numbers they come in contact with everyday. "I'll take that credit card for you..." If I did have the equipment to scan their ID (not difficult to get, I suppose) and was using it in an unauthorized way --- theoretically the federal government can just turn the damn thing off and reissue a new one.

Uninformed? Who's being naive here?

If you've EVER been in a profession where the difference between doing your job and possibly being convicted of a sex crime was your ability to check an ID -- you might feel differently.

Obviously, there is some line to be drawn somewhere -- but right now I'm not so frightened of the fed that I'm going to make it inconvenient for them to function within the law.

[sinmantyx]

No, really, it's not. No more than it's the next logical step for our driver's licenses to store that information.

Actually, I believe there is information available about what would and would not be on the card (at this stage anyhow).

They ARE thinking of RFID -- hilarious!

Anyway, the only thing that really worries me about the bill is WHO is making the decisions. I believe any new requirements for the ID should go through an elected body of some sort.

It IS going to be readable somehow -- exactly how, the law doesn't stipulate.

[Gaf The Horse With Tears]

Most likely they will be smartcards like what are used for almost everything in Europe. You can get Dell computers with Smart Card readers built into the keybaord and it's standard on most of thier latitude laptops. Writers are a bit harder to find though.. but they are out there.

[phee]

Pretty much it is about condensing information which has massive benifits... as well as a need for massive securety

[Der Nister]

The whole point was that if there is ONE standard ID instead of 50 DIFFERENT ones, fake ones will be easier to find. Do you know every detail of every Id issued by every state?

The way I see -- if someone wants to know what all the different i.d.'s from across the country look like - info they contain - ect. - they will. It wouldn't be difficult and one real i.d. can be faked as well. Look at all the measures taken to secure our currency and kids with computers forge money. I've seen stories on t.v. where people make fake casino chips to cash in and the companies that make those chips can't spot the fake chips.

So how is one national i.d. going to protect us? Could someone here that is for real i.d. please tell me how it will protect us?

Our government needs to protect our borders and I think anyone coming in should be scrutinized (i.e. better background checks - anal probes - I don't care what they have to do to keep out the terrorists) but we have failed at keeping them out.

I haven't claimed to have all the answers but allowing the fed gov have more and more power I can say is not for the people of this countries best interest.

Bigger government is not the answer.