Long Time No Babble Dgners.

[Rivers the Cleric]

know it's been a long time since i've been on, but something came up recently, and i figured that i'd get the opinion of some people who's opinion on the gothic colture is.. well, intelligent.

a friend called me the other week, he's been having some problems with his girlfriend's daughter. he asked her mother what to do, and they apparently respect my opinion on this matter and asked me to help them.

here are the issues.

his girlfriend's daughter insists she's a goth. i personally think she's more self destructive than anything else, and she's been making a lot of stupid decisions and blaming them all on being a goth.

in the past 4 months she's...

been caught cutting herself, and showing it to her friends so they would think she was "like, totally goth."

stealing so she could buy things from hot topic for her and her friends.

she's stolen from her mother, father, both sets of grandparents, her mother's boyfriend, her mother's boyfriend's parents, and her mother's boyfriend's grandmother who suffers from major alzimers.

she's been found stealing from stores.

she's insisting she's a satanist, which isn't really as big a deal as most people make it out to be, as long as someone is a REAL satanist, and now just someone who wants to try to kill small animals, which she is.

she's attempted to run away from home more than once, to "be with goths." because apparently goths, dogs, and hobos all travel the wilderness in packs.

she burns any clothing she has that isn't black.

and generally, acts like a little brat. and it's gotten to the point where the principal is about to put a ban on anything remotely gothic, and any student seen wearing skulls, or even too much black clothing will be punished.

now, i sat down with her about a year ago and tried to teach her what being a goth was really all about. not self destruction, not being evil and workshiping satan. but basically, when you get down to it, a bunch of people that just want to dress up, watch horror movies, write poetry, and dance like spazes (at least, that's how i dance.)

she didn't seem to listen.

her attitude this entire time has been "you can't do anything to me, i'm not going to listen!" so, after having her in therapy for most of a year, trying to get her to understand that she's not really being a goth, just moody and self destructive, they've asked for my help.

basically, what i've done is this.

threw out all of her black clothing: she gets to have black clothing again when she stops stealing. it's all nice bright pastells for her, currently.

they locked up anything remotely gothic she owns. she gets it back when she hasn't stolen anything for a year.

she has to go to a MAJOR convention in this state, one i know draws a good goth croud, and hand out pamphlets to kids her age explaing why cutting is bad and dangerous.

she has to hand out the same pamphlets AT her school.

i've also basically given her name picture to all of the local bouncers at the clubs i go to, so she'll be banned from the clubs untill i say so, because a lot of the clubs do let in people under 18, just no drinking. (i end up being owed a lot of favors, and called a few in.)

i decided to draw the line at giving her photo out at hot topics, and getting her barred as a shoplifter.

i'm not loosing a lot of sleep over it, honestly... it's hard for an insomniac to loose much more sleep than normal. but they're worried she might try to kill herself, but even her therapist thinks this sounds like a good idea.

so, too far? i'm basically trying to keep this child from self-destructing, and she won't listen to common sense.

opinions? other options? hamsters?

[Scary Guy]

Focus on education too, not just standard but what it means to be a goth. Electrically shock her if she mentions manson or VNV or anything like that. Give her positive stimulation for Joy Devision, Bauhaus, and Sisters.

Seriously though she sounds more Emo than Goth, so make fun of her for it since Emo is a negative thing. Inform her real goths would beat the shit out of her for how she's acting.

Also check into who her friends are, give them the same treatment.

[glc]

I don't know if it's about being "goth", it sounds more like she picked goth because she thought it would be the most offensive and disturbing image for her parents. Just a guess - I don't want to make many assumptions. I have found that it's REALLY hard to deal with people with this kind of attitude. If you can, you need to find the reason for this behaviour, and tackle that head on, instead of her chosen image. attacking her image just adds fuel to the fire. Most people will get through this rebellious stage, and I hope that she does without too much damage. but yeah, tough one. sorry you have to deal with this.

[Rivers the Cleric]

Focus on education too, not just standard but what it means to be a goth. Electrically shock her if she mentions manson or VNV or anything like that. Give her positive stimulation for Joy Devision, Bauhaus, and Sisters.

Seriously though she sounds more Emo than Goth, so make fun of her for it since Emo is a negative thing. Inform her real goths would beat the shit out of her for how she's acting.

Also check into who her friends are, give them the same treatment.

she insists that she's "going to marry Maralin Manson" so we can see how smart she is from the start.

she's a lost cause, honestly. i tried to give her a little bit of a heads up on music. gave her a couple of Sister's of Mercy CDs, a London After Midnight, Bauhouse, and even a Voltaire CD. she said she didn't like any of it, and it "didn't represent her colture." at this point i'm thinking surgically seperating her from "her colture" seems the best ber for her and the gothic community.

as for her friends... they're already distancing themselves from her, because of her possably getting their colture banned in their school.

I don't know if it's about being "goth", it sounds more like she picked goth because she thought it would be the most offensive and disturbing image for her parents. Just a guess - I don't want to make many assumptions. I have found that it's REALLY hard to deal with people with this kind of attitude. If you can, you need to find the reason for this behaviour, and tackle that head on, instead of her chosen image. attacking her image just adds fuel to the fire. Most people will get through this rebellious stage, and I hope that she does without too much damage. but yeah, tough one. sorry you have to deal with this.

the reason for her behavior is simple, she's even told her therapist, it's because "all of her friends think she's more goth than them" so they look up to her. her parents... well, her actual father deals with her by letting her do what she wants. her mother, on the other hand, has strict rules, reinfoced by her boyfriend (my friend) who is practical about things. he said if she runs away again, then when she gets back he'll chain her to the radiator... he will, too. i saw him making the shackels at his forge the other day.

i'm basically ttrying to end it without anyone being chained to anything.

[JaneDead]

(my friend) who is practical about things. he said if she runs away again, then when she gets back he'll chain her to the radiator... he will, too. i saw him making the shackels at his forge the other day.

how old is this girl? sounds to me like the real problem is the parenting. no discipline, no structure, no attention? the girl is crying out for help in more ways than one. how involved is the mother in this girl's life??? i don't think it is your friend's job to be her parent, it is her parents job to do that and it doesn't seem they are doing that at all. you sound more like her parent than the parents do! i hope someone looks to them (mom and dad) and says "part of the problem is YOU".

[Homicidalheathen]

its called sociopathic disorder I believe. And maybe a few other things.....

This is what I hate though. The few bad apples that give goths a bad name.

Although it seems some people who are mentally messed up do seem to gravitate to the gothic subculture as a way to fit in because they are already outcast by their actions.

She sounds rather EMO to me.

Boo hoo feel sorry for me I am so messed up I cut myself.

But anyone who steals from her sick grandma needs her butt kicked or military school.

[glc]

I am so distant from this situation, and I don't know the half of what's going on, but I still comment anyway!! I don't think this has anything to do with her friends, or being goth. It goes deeper than that, Just like Jane said, it probably goes back to the parents. She needs a serious lesson in respect. and her friends arent going to teach it to her, it's something that's learned through out life, and it seem that somewhere, she has missed this most important lesson. And unfortunately, it sounds like she's going to learn the hard way, if she does at all.

[BrassFusion]

making her wear pastel colors as punishment is a bad bad bad idea, in my opinion. it just reinforces her negative association with things she deems as "non-goth."

the punishment should fit the crime... like if she's shoplifting, take some of her things and donate them to the needy. if she's acting out at school, either keep her at home a few days and set her in a chair and watch her be bored. or see if they do in-house suspensions at her school.

the cutting is a thing that i think would be very hard to punish for. it seems like the only way to cure that would be with love and attention and positive reinforcement.

obviously positive reinforcement, in the end, is the only way to cure anything. there needs to be a set of adults she knows she can trust, positive role models to emulate. without that, nothing will work.

[JaneDead]

making her wear pastel colors as punishment is a bad bad bad idea, in my opinion. it just reinforces her negative association with things she deems as "non-goth."

the punishment should fit the crime... like if she's shoplifting, take some of her things and donate them to the needy. if she's acting out at school, either keep her at home a few days and set her in a chair and watch her be bored. or see if they do in-house suspensions at her school.

the cutting is a thing that i think would be very hard to punish for. it seems like the only way to cure that would be with love and attention and positive reinforcement.

obviously positive reinforcement, in the end, is the only way to cure anything. there needs to be a set of adults she knows she can trust, positive role models to emulate. without that, nothing will work.

exactly

[Scary Guy]

I say you give her the address to here. She can see what real goths are like and we can always ban her if she gets out of hand.

She wants to merry Mary Manson? What the hell is she, 12?

[BrassFusion]

if she got banned from a place like this right off the bat she probably wouldn't learn anything anyway

[Rivers the Cleric]

how old is this girl? sounds to me like the real problem is the parenting. no discipline, no structure, no attention? the girl is crying out for help in more ways than one. how involved is the mother in this girl's life??? i don't think it is your friend's job to be her parent, it is her parents job to do that and it doesn't seem they are doing that at all. you sound more like her parent than the parents do! i hope someone looks to them (mom and dad) and says "part of the problem is YOU".

this girl is 14. the problem here is the father. the parents are devorced, and the father doesn't inforce any rules on her at all. the mother spends all the time she can with her, to the point of taking time off of work that she needs to pay for food and shelter, so that she can be there for her child. her mother is not part of the problem. the problem is rules that are only inforced on one side, so the child is viewing her mother having ANY rules as unreasonable. she even says that she wants to live with her father, because he doesnt really care about her enough to make her follow rules. her EXACT words.

making her wear pastel colors as punishment is a bad bad bad idea, in my opinion. it just reinforces her negative association with things she deems as "non-goth."

the punishment should fit the crime... like if she's shoplifting, take some of her things and donate them to the needy. if she's acting out at school, either keep her at home a few days and set her in a chair and watch her be bored. or see if they do in-house suspensions at her school.

the cutting is a thing that i think would be very hard to punish for. it seems like the only way to cure that would be with love and attention and positive reinforcement.

obviously positive reinforcement, in the end, is the only way to cure anything. there needs to be a set of adults she knows she can trust, positive role models to emulate. without that, nothing will work.

they've done positive reinforcement. they had a points system, where she could do chores, and not doing some of the stupider things i've listed would result in points every week. she went in and tried to change the chart they did so she would have more points than she had earned. problem was her mother had it all memorized.

they tried making her work for a church charity, she stole from it.

frankly at this point i'm thinking the bright colors are a good idea. when i was a child, up untill about 16, if i did something wrong i got a spanking. she won't respond to those or positive reinforcement, so it's time for something that hurts.

and honestly, the therapist even said that the mother's boyfriend SHOULD start inforcing rules, because she didn't have a strong male rolemodel in her life.

[glc]

My strongest male role model in life is obviously, my father. He didn't chain me up and punish me, I copped a smack once and that was it. The biggest thing that taught me respect in this life, was love. If this girl has any concience at all, and if she isn't indeed a psychopath, then it will be a loss in her life that brings her around. not a loss of black clothes, or anything like that, a loss so profound that it will shake her into gear. Again, if she isn't a psychopath, as HH has brought up. but unfortunately, it sounds like she might be, in which case you can wait untill she's about 40 untill her behaviour starts to mellow out. Somewhat, but not completely.

[Scales]

For her age she sounds troubled, but doesn't sound like a physcopath. She's heading down a road where she's going to learn things the hard way though; and she seems like she needs to have a father figure to seriously warn her about that.

[glc]

Psychopathy is a disorder characterised by an apparent lack of conscience, and it's not an uncommon disorder either. There are over 2 million psychopaths in North Amaerica alone, and this is a conservative estimate. The prevelance of psychopathy is a similar number to that of schizophrenia, so it is a much more common problem than people are aware of. And, it is something that you are born with. It would be interesting to look into this girls past, and look at her behaviour over time. Although, I agree, and hope, that the problem could stem from a brocken marriage, instead of the inherrant possibility.

And, if her therapist can't help her, then they are absolutely useless. that is their job. I would suggest finding a better one that can give you usefull information on how to deal with this child.

[Rivers the Cleric]

My strongest male role model in life is obviously, my father. He didn't chain me up and punish me, I copped a smack once and that was it. The biggest thing that taught me respect in this life, was love. If this girl has any concience at all, and if she isn't indeed a psychopath, then it will be a loss in her life that brings her around. not a loss of black clothes, or anything like that, a loss so profound that it will shake her into gear. Again, if she isn't a psychopath, as HH has brought up. but unfortunately, it sounds like she might be, in which case you can wait untill she's about 40 untill her behaviour starts to mellow out. Somewhat, but not completely.

i guess i was lucky. i was serrounded by strong role models of both sexes. my father and mother both are intelligent, moral people. both asked to join MENSA, but didn't because they thought it was just an elietist organization to make a group of people feel better than everyone else. and by moral, i mean the ONLY moral they ever instilled in me was "don't hurt yourself, don't hurt other people, and don't be afraid to help people if they need it." and i think that covered enough of the ground.... though the "don't hurt other people" is a bit flexable...

honestly, if i know my friend, he's prolly going to put the shackels on the radiator to scare her.... besides, i don't think her mother would really let him.

i'm not sure how capeable this girl is of "love" or feeling it, or knowing what it is. her pet cat of 6 years had to be put down, and her only reaction was "can i keep it's skull?"

my friend, the girl, and her mother are going to be moving out to the country, soon. he's a fairly rich guy, apparently. he has pattants on a lot of military equipment. he's getting a place far enough out that she's going to have 2 social groups to pick from. the 4H club, and the Future Farmers of America. the girl's father has no issue with them taking her.

i dunno. this all just seems more and more like a big old pile of fucked up.

[glc]

Indeed. A big pile of fucked up shit. noone should have to deal with stuff like that, it sucks

[Scary Guy]

I like the military school idea now... At the very least she can become fodder for the government war machine.

[EAF (1)]

The biggist worry at thie point is the cutting...I know way too many people that cute and to be honest that is why I do not myself because I have seen what it does, what it can do, and why it is a bad thing...however my examples who have really are cryong out for attention, maybe attention is the thing they are giving her too mch of...I don't know given the circumstance I almost want to say have them "kick her out" it would take a while to put together but you could have her parents pretend to kick her out on her ass...havea "stranger" a.k.a. steriotypical really "cool" goth try and pick her up to stay with them...lol Then have him be nothing like she imagined and maybe even a complete asshole have her running home in no time...

The only problem with my idea is if she really is fucked up in the head, unlike any normal 14 year old, she won't do what is expected. I don't believe she is a lost cause because of her age, but all I want to stress really is the cutting, for the stealing I think you should let her get caught or turn her in arrange a punishment of like maybe a few nights in a jail cell, then again she might think that is "cool"...I am not saying I am goth, I never have, but I do know she is trying far to hard to fit into something she otherwise would probably not have choosen for herself...

I do seriously believe you need to let her fuck up so badley that she realizes wow this is dumb. Or find a "goth" role model someone who actualy displays TRUE gothic mannerisms...not her fictional fantasies. I think the best approach is to maybe scare the shit out of her.

[Msterbeau]

Tough call. She's rapidly getting to a point where you need to let her learn the hard way. As humans we want to help and be there, and that's admirable to a point, but sometimes the best thing is to let people face consequences for themselves. Punishments and "scaring" her aren't gonna do it, in my opinion.

[EAF (1)]

I agree with you but given her age, she may still have hope...I just mean't try everything you can before giving up.

Beceause no matter how badly you want to try and help someone, sometimes you can do nothing at all...

[creatureofthenyte]

Can't help someone if they don't want to be helped.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

Very few "goths" came to it via a rational, well thought out, historically researched plan. Try as they might to lie now that they are more established and have their pet definitions of what it is to be a "real goth".

I do have to give her at least some mild credit for willing to admit she at least wants to be Gothic. So many these days are chicken-shit scared of the term and even if 90% of everything they are into is somehow Gothic to one degree or the other, they wouldn't dare ever "label" themselves Gothic. Unfortunately she has a stereotypically (bad) view of what most within the scene (all 20 of us) would consider "goth".

But all that pandering aside:

In this particular case, she just sounds like a disturbed / angry / attention whoring child. Kinda like 80% of all kids i ever knew growing up. Not necessarily anything to do with "goth".

This would be a case for child raising tech rather than anything particularly Gothic.

[JaneDead]

Tough call. She's rapidly getting to a point where you need to let her learn the hard way. As humans we want to help and be there, and that's admirable to a point, but sometimes the best thing is to let people face consequences for themselves. Punishments and "scaring" her aren't gonna do it, in my opinion.

but she is still SO young. i agree with consequences but sometimes those consequences are things that can not be taken back. and she is way too young to be doing things and learning the REALLY hard way ie. pregnancy, drugs, etc. punishment CAN do it if the punishment fits the crime and is not something she can just blow off or become immune to.

she needs tough love and attention and guidance. and good role models! kids in trouble are crying out for help. whether THEY know it or not. the adults SHOULD.

In this particular case, she just sounds like a disturbed / angry / attention whoring child. Kinda like 80% of all kids i ever knew growing up. Not necessarily anything to do with "goth".

This would be a case for child raising tech rather than anything particularly Gothic.

exactly. the parenting, or lack thereof, is what turns a child into what was described in this thread.

[Msterbeau]

but she is still SO young. i agree with consequences but sometimes those consequences are things that can not be taken back. and she is way too young to be doing things and learning the REALLY hard way ie. pregnancy, drugs, etc. punishment CAN do it if the punishment fits the crime and is not something she can just blow off or become immune to.

she needs tough love and attention and guidance. and good role models! kids in trouble are crying out for help. whether THEY know it or not. the adults SHOULD.

exactly. the parenting, or lack thereof, is what turns a child into what was described in this thread.

I don't disagree... I went out with someone a year and a half ago with a younger daughter but similar situation. The father was either overly permissive or downright useless and uncaring. And then he got killed in an accident. Her daughter was only 3 and already showing a lots of signs of serious problems. Her mom loved her but even she abandoned her to babysitters and TV. Once the damage is done it may take many years to undo. By 14.. a LOT has been done. Plus she's at that age when kids are itching to break free of parental bonds. I suspect they have some tough years ahead of them.. .and I'm not quite sure what might pull her out of where she's headed.

I'm not suggesting she should be abandoned to the world, but I do think that they shouldn't bail her out of every situation she gets herself into. You don't learn if consequences aren't experienced. Love and caring have to partner with discipline and responsibility to keep kids on the right track. Even then, you never really know.