For The Music Snobs

[Steven]

Cix.......

Timbre is the quality of the sound... so, in physical terms, think of a piece of wood, it's texture, is it rough, or smooth etc. that's Timbre. that and melody, harmony, rhythm, and form make up the 5 elements of music.

does timbre neccesarily eqaute to "quality" of sound?

I have always associated it (timbre) with the "texture" of the sound. For example I enjoy certain types of vocalists for the particular timbre of their voice. But I dont often look at it in terms of one type of voice or even technique being superior in quality to another. I simply respond to certain things of a certain frequency that appeal to me.

[glc]

Timbre is what differentiates one sound from another at the same frequency and amplitude.

[TygerLili]

I'm sorry, but music snobs drive me crazy.

If I like the way something sounds, I'll listen to it. If I hate the way it sounds, I won't. I really don't care if everyone else says it sucks or is too mainstream or is the best thing since sliced bread.

And just because I like a song, I feel no particular obligation to learn everything I can about the artist who recorded it, and every other album or musical endeavor they've ever accomplished. If I'm talking to someone who is really into music I'll quickly concede that they know more about the subject than I do.

[sinmantyx]

I simply respond to certain things of a certain frequency that appeal to me.

I simply respond to certain aspects of the frequency spectrum of the complex sound that appeal to me.

(Since you are talking about a voice, I suppose you could use the term formants.)

I LOVE 6000 Hz. It's the BEST frequency EVER!

...but I doubt that's what you meant.

[sinmantyx]

Timbre is what differentiates one sound from another at the same frequency and amplitude.

Timbre is what differentiates one sound from another at the same pitch and loudness.

Using the word frequency here doesn't work. If the sound only contained one frequency it would not only be the same pitch, but also the same timbre: just a good old fashioned sine wave. (Assuming we're defining frequency in the context of happy-fun-time Fourier analysis.)

Amplitude is also not a good word to use, since the sound pressure level of a particular sound may translate (to our ears) as a completely different loudness depending on the frequency content (including what we would perceive as pitch and as timbre).

Timbre is most closely related to the frequency spectrum of the sound...but depends on a great many things. The "envelope" of the sound is important as well as the transients of the attack (the noise usually coming before the steady-state of the sound). If you take off the attack; most people can't tell a french horn from an alto saxophone.

[glc]

Timbre is what differentiates, ie, the harmonics and overtones present in one sound that are different in another sound.

so: timbre is the perceived difference in sound made up of varying degrees of harmonics and overtones above the fundamental.

intersting comment about amplitude though, now you've got me thinking.....

If a comparrison of timbre was to be accurate, wouldn't it be better to measure at the peak amplitude, rather than average? the perceived difference in loudness could then be attributed to the harmonic content rather then a difference in peak amplitude? ie. a saw tooth wave sounds louder than a sine wave at the same amplitude because of the harmonic content?

hmmm.

[sinmantyx]

Timbre is what differentiates, ie, the harmonics and overtones present in one sound that are different in another sound.

so: timbre is the perceived difference in sound made up of varying degrees of harmonics and overtones above the fundamental.

intersting comment about amplitude though, now you've got me thinking.....

If a comparrison of timbre was to be accurate, wouldn't it be better to measure at the peak amplitude, rather than average? the perceived difference in loudness could then be attributed to the harmonic content rather then a difference in peak amplitude? ie. a saw tooth wave sounds louder than a sine wave at the same amplitude because of the harmonic content?

hmmm.

I would be happier with the word "partial" instead of harmonic or overtone since when you talk about harmonics and overtones you are specifically talking about partials that have a particular relationship. If all partials were harmonics or overtones: everything would sound a lot like either the steady state of a really bland string instrument or the steady state of a very dull clarinet.

The fundamental should be included in the spectrum as well. You actually don't NEED a fundamental to have a pitch that corresponds to the fundamental frequency: however, if it's not there it certainly effects the timbre.

Perceived loudness is extremely dependent on the frequency content: which is one of the reasons why changing the sound pressure level of a complex sound also changes the timbre. (Which is why some music sucks at low volume. NEVER listen to the Cure's Disintegration at a low level! There: that's my music snob moment. )

The best way to try to de-couple the two is not by taking a peak or average; but by weighting the sound pressure level. There are generally three weightings on a SPL meter: A,B, and C. The C weighting is relatively flat and the A weighting attenuates at low frequencies in a curve that is an oversimplification of the famous Fletcher-Munson equal loudness curves. (The B weighting is somewhere between the two and is basically worthless.)

[glc]

Ah, this all takes me back to the uni days. Where debates would rage over technicalities and semantics!! I love this shit!!

don't get me started on the Fletcher Munsen curve, that theory has been the basis of arguement for many a novice user of eq. Why does the puplic have eq anyway?

Actually, add that to the list of gripes too. The fact that the public gets to eq their music somewhat on their stereo systems. News flash people - the way the cd came out of the studio is the way we want you to hear it. and don't try to give me the room compensation arguement, there's not much compensation you can do with a crude 3 band eg and no meter. And also, the loudness button. Bloody hell, who the hell came up with that??

[sinmantyx]

Ah, this all takes me back to the uni days. Where debates would rage over technicalities and semantics!! I love this shit!!

don't get me started on the Fletcher Munsen curve, that theory has been the basis of arguement for many a novice user of eq. Why does the puplic have eq anyway?

Actually, add that to the list of gripes too. The fact that the public gets to eq their music somewhat on their stereo systems. News flash people - the way the cd came out of the studio is the way we want you to hear it. and don't try to give me the room compensation arguement, there's not much compensation you can do with a crude 3 band eg and no meter. And also, the loudness button. Bloody hell, who the hell came up with that??

Actually, if I had any argument for the public having eq: it would not be compensating for the room; but compensating for their own level of hearing loss.

On that subject: Is it just me, or are some "sound-guys" so deaf that they turn the shit up so loud that everything just sounds LOUD. There ARE reasonable limits people! The last time I went to "The Machine Shop" I couldn't hardly stand to be inside.

PS: Oh yeah, and I'm not trying to "argue" over semantics. I studied acoustics in grad school for a short time and I developed and taught a college-level acoustics class. I can't NOT say these things. It's in my nature.

[Der Nister]

Saying you, "listen to everything" is just a euphemism for "I don't pay attention and don't care".

I agree 100% - I have heard so many people say this and when I mention bands or songs outside the mainstream (top 40 radio) they almost always have no clue who I'm talking about. And then the complete opposite of this pisses me off - people that seem to go out of there way to bring up the most obscure bands/songs giving me the impression that they are somehow more in the scene or cutting edge and if you don't know who they are talking about you're nothing to them. What's up with those people?

I could sit here all day bringing up bands that most people wouldn't know about - doesn't make me more cutting edge or whatever - just means there are some bands you haven't heard of yet. Get over yourselves already.

And people that think it's a waste of time knowing the members of any given band and what songs they've written or instruments they play - music is my passion, of course I know these musicians and their history. Just because someone else can't remember this info doesn't mean the dink to me.

And let's not forget the music equipment snobs - should this be another thread? (they really piss me off)

[BrassFusion]

oh man sin, bring the terminology, you're making me all moist

and did you know that a sustained note on a french horn can form the closest thing to a sine wave of pretty much any instrument? it's true! i've played my horn into an oscilloscope and gotten a perfect sine wave.

same thing happened of course when i sang "oo" really carefully. that was a fun class

[n0Mad]

On that subject: Is it just me, or are some "sound-guys" so deaf that they turn the shit up so loud that everything just sounds LOUD. There ARE reasonable limits people! The last time I went to "The Machine Shop" I couldn't hardly stand to be inside.

Virtually every club or concert I've been to I've thought it was too loud. If the sound guy turned it down two notches, it would've been perfect. Oh sure, it's fun to feel the music but I'd rather listen to it at a level where I can hear all the individual sounds and how they work together, not how they blend together into indiscernable noise.

And let's not forget the music equipment snobs - should this be another thread? (they really piss me off)

Sabian makes the best cymbals.

[glc]

Actually, if I had any argument for the public having eq: it would not be compensating for the room; but compensating for their own level of hearing loss.

On that subject: Is it just me, or are some "sound-guys" so deaf that they turn the shit up so loud that everything just sounds LOUD. There ARE reasonable limits people! The last time I went to "The Machine Shop" I couldn't hardly stand to be inside.

PS: Oh yeah, and I'm not trying to "argue" over semantics. I studied acoustics in grad school for a short time and I developed and taught a college-level acoustics class. I can't NOT say these things. It's in my nature.

Oh no, I didn't mean that in a bad way, it just reminds me of the old days when we used to discuss (perhaps a better word than argue) such things. I wasn't attacking you about it, I'm enjoying it! it's been a while since I've had such a discussion.

Sound guys in clubs is something that's bothered me for AGES. Why are there so many bad ones? it's easy to get good sound at a venue, I just don't understand how they can get it so wrong.

I was at this gig once, and the pa was sounding terrible, they were having all sorts of difficulties. eventually the call went out if there was a sound engineer in the building!! So I went and had a fiddle, made it all better, and got free drinks for the rest of the night!! That was so strange...

[glc]

And let's not forget the music equipment snobs - should this be another thread? (they really piss me off)

Sorry dude, I'm an equipment snob. There's just nothing quite like listening to the sound of a 6 thousand dollar preamp. try getting that experience from a behringer!!

[phee]

Ah yes the equiment/technical snobs...

I remember when we finished the Nightside Eclipse CD, and I showed the finished product to another "musician?".... *sigh* basically he started talking about how the compression ratio on the vocals seemed a bit less than optimal, and that the synth used should have focused more on the analogue aspects, as well as the precussion sounding more metallic then normal, etc... Finally I had to say, "can you stop? and tell me what you think of the music?" he more or less was speechless... and didn't understand why I would ask... finally he was like: "Oh um, yeah.... the music is cool"

yeah....

[glc]

Meh, riding faders on the vocal take is better than compressing them. more natural, but it's tricky!

[sinmantyx]

Ah yes the equiment/technical snobs...

I remember when we finished the Nightside Eclipse CD, and I showed the finished product to another "musician?".... *sigh* basically he started talking about how the compression ratio on the vocals seemed a bit less than optimal, and that the synth used should have focused more on the analogue aspects, as well as the precussion sounding more metallic then normal, etc... Finally I had to say, "can you stop? and tell me what you think of the music?" he more or less was speechless... and didn't understand why I would ask... finally he was like: "Oh um, yeah.... the music is cool"

yeah....

Awesome.

[Msterbeau]

I go away for a few days and I miss all the fun threads...

My snobbery exists in basically one way. I like many genres of music. I like industrial stuff, synthpop, punk of various sorts, country, jazz etc, etc, blah blah blah... BUT. I generally only like the best and most original artists from within that genre and even then, only their best stuff. I'm acutely sensitive to familiar parts of music. If I hear something I've heard before... a bass line or guitar lick that I've heard before, I'm often turned off because i can't get the idea that it's not original out of my head. I utterly despise most commercial pop because it's completely unoriginal and has the further unredeeming quality of being produced solely for profit motive. My art/design snobbery follows along the same lines. Needless to say, my music collection is not very big. I could probably say more but I'll see what can of worms I've opened before commenting further. :-)

[CixWicked]

I'm sorry, but music snobs drive me crazy.

If I like the way something sounds, I'll listen to it. If I hate the way it sounds, I won't. I really don't care if everyone else says it sucks or is too mainstream or is the best thing since sliced bread.

And just because I like a song, I feel no particular obligation to learn everything I can about the artist who recorded it, and every other album or musical endeavor they've ever accomplished. If I'm talking to someone who is really into music I'll quickly concede that they know more about the subject than I do.

Here here TL... I second that emotion, and think I'll write a song about it. :D

CixWicked

[CixWicked]

Here here TL... I second that emotion, and think I'll write a song about it. :D

CixWicked

Ok, after dodging crazy terminology, and flagrent personal snobbery, I figure I should just sum up the Non-snob's take on music... Well... Mine anyways... here we go.

1) I don't know what Timber is... I don't know how to say it, or how to use it properly in a sentence. Maybe that makes my musicianship suffer, maybe not. The thing is, right now I really don't much care, and honestly, the conversation that I've seen here makes me pretty happy that I don't know or care. The conversation scares me... like fire. Fire bad... fire -really- bad...

2) I have personal preferences, just like everyone else. If our preferences differ, I'm fine with that. Peachy! But I can't -stand- to be told that my preferences are less valid for what ever reason. Look, if I like a song, and you don't... MY Ipod has headphones... you don't have to listen. If I'm going to a show and you don't like the act... DON'T GO.

3) If you are such a snob that you knock an entire genera of music, or even a bands entire repitoire, you're probably wrong. Most people have never heard all the songs by their -favoirte- band... at least not well enough to remember every song. So if you believe that because in your opinion 'The radio sucks my penis' by Teeny Bopper Superstar sucked, everything the band does sucks you're quite closed minded, and don't deserve ears. Maybe that's a bit harsh... Nahh.

4) Phee makes a good point in that too many people are more interested in seeming to know about music and production, than exploring the expression that a band puts out. Some of the worse people to ever farm your music out to (As a band) are other musicians, and frankly -especially- electronic music producers. When I ask someone to listen to my music, I'm not asking how I should have written or recorded the song. I'm simply asking if you like the music. If you give any other answer than that, you're being a shmoo. I HATE SHMOOS... shmoos killed my momma, my uncle bob, and my dog... and I loved that dog.

5) And another thing, personal gripe. (Here's the profanity). If you're willing to go out to national acts on week nights, and pay oodles of cash to go, but you can't go see your friends band play at a local pub, when it'll cost you $5 or $10 bucks on a weekend... You are a f$%*ing prick. If you can pay $75 to see Wrestlemania, but cant shell out 5 bucks to see Misconceived at the bar -YOU ASKED THEM TO PLAY-, your an ass muncher.

Look, we got all these people who claim themselves to be music lovers, music experts, and music fucking snobs, talking about things like (And not singling anyone out, really) timbre, frequencies, intonation, and pentameter (What ever the hell that means), in the mean time local Detroit music is dieing. What a freaking waste. I've been to city club for Covenant, and the place was PACKED... I've been to the Labyrinth for Apop, and again it was packed. I've -DRIVEN TO CHICAGO- in a van, packed in like sardines to see FLA. Then I've played the token lounge with 3 other acts, and ended up playing to 3 freaking people... one was my brother, one was my Girl Friend, and the other was a buddy of mine who heard me sing karaoke and had to see what the band was like.

If you're supporting national acts great, but if you are doing so and -not- supporting local music in anyway... well... may you go to the hell of the horny dragon. (The Chinese have a -lot- of hells.)

Rant over... carry on with your lives.

Cix

[glc]

hehe, I like this thread!

Just cause I'm throwing a few words around doesn't mean that I don't enjoy music as much as everybody else, in fact, I think it helps me enjoy it more because I know what has gone into it. I don't exert my musical snobbery onto anyone else, I just brought it up here because phee opened a haven for it! Most of my friends are musicians, struggling to make a buck with their local gigs, and I get along and pay my $5 to see them as often as I can. I even dish out another $10 to buy their ep's which I've recorded and produced, just to help them out!

[CixWicked]

hehe, I like this thread!

Just cause I'm throwing a few words around doesn't mean that I don't enjoy music as much as everybody else, in fact, I think it helps me enjoy it more because I know what has gone into it. I don't exert my musical snobbery onto anyone else, I just brought it up here because phee opened a haven for it! Most of my friends are musicians, struggling to make a buck with their local gigs, and I get along and pay my $5 to see them as often as I can. I even dish out another $10 to buy their ep's which I've recorded and produced, just to help them out!

Actually my talk on 'throwing words' was meant more as an admission of -my- ignorance, not a slight or jibe at anyone.

That's awesome that you do support local music. I wish MISCONCEIVED had a few fans just like you.

Cix

[glc]

Next time I'm in town I'll have to come and check you guys out!

[phee]

I for one have seen Cix play... he is amazing... and I for one have been REALLY REALLY bad about it lately... and I have not seen him lately.... I even went out to one of his shows not horribly long ago but had to leave before he went on....

Yeah... I suck

[glc]