For The Music Snobs

[odims_sphere]

Dudes, I know what mastering actually is!! lol!!

It just annoys me that after I've spent hours perfecting something, I give it to someone else to make better. whatever. I know how to make mixes translate well in different environments, I don't need someone to polish my mixes. it just seems so arrogant.

Try not to think of it as "making it better" but rather conforming it to industry standard. I know. I used the "C" word. forbidden in the "gothic" sub-culture.

[glc]

It's like painting some masterpiece, and giving it to some snob to make the finishing touches....

[odims_sphere]

Or... it's like painting a picture that you think is a masterpiece, then giving it to someone else who can make everyone else think its a masterpiece too.

[glc]

Heh, I've just got a bit of an ego about it, if you haven't already noticed! Although, depending on the mix, often there is very little corrextional mastering that is done, just fades, track orders and relative loudness etc. It just seems that more often than not, Mastering engineers have to compensate for bad mixes. So in essence, it's not the mastering that pisses me off, it's the bad engineers.

[odims_sphere]

Fair enough, Bad engineers piss me off too! Or rather engineers who think they are good but really arn't.

[glc]

Fair enough, Bad engineers piss me off too! Or rather engineers who think they are good but really arn't.

and there are plenty of those around. unfortunately.

[BrassFusion]

i guess i still don't understand. did they "master" the von karajan recording of scheherazade?

[odims_sphere]

i guess i still don't understand. did they "master" the von karajan recording of scheherazade?

If you can commerically buy a recording of it, it's been mastered. I'm not talking about buying some kids band CD out of his basement. all actual professional recordings have been mastered.

Think of it like special effects in movies, The really good ones you can never tell they are effects, it's just part of the movie. Same with mastering for music. Good mastering doesn't change the music, just enhances it.

[Steven]

uhhhhh like pitch-correction on vocals or instrument lines that are slightly out of tune? that's dishonest.

ugh.

mix fixing is against my religion. if you cant lay the vocal down right then wait till you can, because onstage there is nowhere to hide.....(plus it sounds tweaked)

You shouldent even BE recording till you've done all your homework and actually have your shit togethor. I've been in recording situatioins before where the band was rehearsing the changes in the studio, it was an expensive mess.

I also hate it when people wet their vocals down so much that they sound like somebody else or they rely on the effects (like delay) to sound think or even hold notes...all that kind of stuff is weak to me and shows up on the recording. Even playing out live I like a real dry vocal signal with maybe just a very small hint of reverb or compression if the room needs it, I'm constantly vying with sound men to get my vocal more organic.

[phee]

Ya know, the way I feel is pretty well summed up by the words of an ancient wise man:

"The track marks your spine, they say

Machines are humans

We're programmed that way

In God we trust

In God we trust"

But maybe that's just me.

CixWicked

Yup that sums it up

[CixWicked]

ugh.

mix fixing is against my religion. if you cant lay the vocal down right then wait till you can, because onstage there is nowhere to hide.....(plus it sounds tweaked)

You shouldent even BE recording till you've done all your homework and actually have your shit togethor. I've been in recording situatioins before where the band was rehearsing the changes in the studio, it was an expensive mess.

I also hate it when people wet their vocals down so much that they sound like somebody else or they rely on the effects (like delay) to sound think or even hold notes...all that kind of stuff is weak to me and shows up on the recording. Even playing out live I like a real dry vocal signal with maybe just a very small hint of reverb or compression if the room needs it, I'm constantly vying with sound men to get my vocal more organic.

Aymen brother... at least on most of it.

My usual quarrel with sound guys is where I'm supposed to go in the mix. We played some place in warren (The name escapes me right now) on st. patties day, and they had a single mic. We've got 2 vocalists in the band (Me doing main, and my guitarist sings colead on 2 songs). I told the sound guy. You want him way up in the mix, and me way down. I said we do -not- sing at the same level. He says 'Oh, you guys can't be all that different... you're trying to say you over power him... Bullshit.'

Yeah... They're in desperate need of new equipment. I've blown speakers at US12 because the sound guy wouldn't listen to me.

I know it's not the same thing that you were talking about Steven, but just thought I'd share.

As far as studio rehersing... it's stupid. People are stupid... they want to get their CD out before they are really ready. We're fortunate enough to have a guy who beleives in us so much that he's pushing us to get the CD done, and so we're paying nothing for it. Now I can't speak for the quality of the finished product, but so far what we've heard is quite impressive, so I can't wait for the mixed down version. But yeah, If I can't do it right in the studio, I wont do it. I believe in layering, and I beleive in putting effects on vocals when you're doing shadowing and whisper tracks, but you better believe that what you hear on my CD's is -me-, and me alone.

CixWicked

[phee]

i guess i still don't understand. did they "master" the von karajan recording of scheherazade?

Not to drive the point home too much but... yes they did. Mastering doesn't so much change the recording so much as make it usable... Another metaphor would be kind of like sealing food that you are going to sell in the grocery store so that it stays edible, there maybe nothing wrong with the cereal sitting in a box, but the store won't carry it unless it is safe...

The above classical recording without mastering would either be A.) too quiet to play compared to other music in a collection... so you have to turn it up, and it results in hiss and hum from your stereo being heard because you have been forced to turn it up, or when you change CD's you blow up your system; and B.) Mastered music also can get too loud without the control that mastering gives (in certain dynamic ranges) and again blow up your machinery...

[Steven]

Aymen brother... at least on most of it.

My usual quarrel with sound guys is where I'm supposed to go in the mix. We played some place in warren (The name escapes me right now) on st. patties day, and they had a single mic. We've got 2 vocalists in the band (Me doing main, and my guitarist sings colead on 2 songs). I told the sound guy. You want him way up in the mix, and me way down. I said we do -not- sing at the same level. He says 'Oh, you guys can't be all that different... you're trying to say you over power him... Bullshit.'

Yeah... They're in desperate need of new equipment. I've blown speakers at US12 because the sound guy wouldn't listen to me.

I know it's not the same thing that you were talking about Steven, but just thought I'd share.

As far as studio rehersing... it's stupid. People are stupid... they want to get their CD out before they are really ready. We're fortunate enough to have a guy who beleives in us so much that he's pushing us to get the CD done, and so we're paying nothing for it. Now I can't speak for the quality of the finished product, but so far what we've heard is quite impressive, so I can't wait for the mixed down version. But yeah, If I can't do it right in the studio, I wont do it. I believe in layering, and I beleive in putting effects on vocals when you're doing shadowing and whisper tracks, but you better believe that what you hear on my CD's is -me-, and me alone.

CixWicked

No, your absolutely right - you have to set different levesl for different members, not only for volume but also for differing timbres if you want a full sound. you cant just dial everybody up the same or its just a wall of sound without any clarity. You always need vox to stand out and be crisp - if the singer sounds lousy then so does the band.

We have two singers (actually three and an accasional fourth) in my band as well. Janet and I are both power vocalists, but over time my voice has become louder than hers - so her mic is usually very very hot because we double lead lines and counter each other. I also have more texture in my voice and do alot more scat stuff and trills and whatnot....she's more of a forward blaster. So on certain songs we pull her back a bit and push me up a bit if we know its songs that I'm very busy in vocal wise. She also uses a cordless system thats very good but I have not had good luck on cordless systems for my voice, I seem to lose a bit of compression on them and I have a bluesy edge to my style and that needs to come thru.

[LuluVox]

Hm, something came up yesterday that reminded me of this whole topic.

I guess a friend of mine recently downloaded the latest Keane album, out of curiosity. Then she tells me, "Damn it! I think I like this new Keane album!!" I asked her why that warranted a "damn it," and she's like, "because it's not 'cool' -- it's too popular." I just told her it didn't matter, and to like what she wanted to like, but it got me thinking about the people who mold their musical interests around whichever social group they're trying to impress, and that happens to be a pet peeve of mine.

Of course I'm not completely innocent of this, and there was a time when my list of "favorite bands" was engineered for looks as well as genuine interest, and sometimes the former overshadowed the latter, but I'd like to think I pretty much embrace everything I like these days, and/or don't feel obligated to like something because it'll make me look good, and I dislike it when I see this way of thinking getting in the way of my friends' ability to just enjoy the music they enjoy without having to worry about social status or whatever. Ya know?

[phee]

Hm, something came up yesterday that reminded me of this whole topic.

I guess a friend of mine recently downloaded the latest Keane album, out of curiosity. Then she tells me, "Damn it! I think I like this new Keane album!!" I asked her why that warranted a "damn it," and she's like, "because it's not 'cool' -- it's too popular." I just told her it didn't matter, and to like what she wanted to like, but it got me thinking about the people who mold their musical interests around whichever social group they're trying to impress, and that happens to be a pet peeve of mine.

Of course I'm not completely innocent of this, and there was a time when my list of "favorite bands" was engineered for looks as well as genuine interest, and sometimes the former overshadowed the latter, but I'd like to think I pretty much embrace everything I like these days, and/or don't feel obligated to like something because it'll make me look good, and I dislike it when I see this way of thinking getting in the way of my friends' ability to just enjoy the music they enjoy without having to worry about social status or whatever. Ya know?

Good rant

[BrassFusion]

Not to drive the point home too much but... yes they did. Mastering doesn't so much change the recording so much as make it usable... Another metaphor would be kind of like sealing food that you are going to sell in the grocery store so that it stays edible, there maybe nothing wrong with the cereal sitting in a box, but the store won't carry it unless it is safe...

The above classical recording without mastering would either be A.) too quiet to play compared to other music in a collection... so you have to turn it up, and it results in hiss and hum from your stereo being heard because you have been forced to turn it up, or when you change CD's you blow up your system; and B.) Mastered music also can get too loud without the control that mastering gives (in certain dynamic ranges) and again blow up your machinery...

Most orchestral recordings ARE way way way too quiet in most places. The thing about orchestral music is that we have indications about how loud we're supposed to be playing. The volume is part of the music. In some parts of some pieces, the goal is to play so quietly that we force the audience to lean forward. A live show can't really translate well to a recording, but at least they leave the volume the same.

And as for balance of the levels between the instruments- that's our job, too. I can't think of anything someone could do to an orchestral recording (with the exception of masking pops, hisses, background noise) that wouldn't cheapen the amount of effort and cohesion it takes to put a symphony together.

Edit: Okay, I can understand the need for someone just barely competent to do the fade outs between tracks- but that only affects a concert recording, anyway. It's an important part of creating a live CD, I'll admit to that- I've heard CDs of my performances where the jackasses cut off a track at medium volume right in the middle of the applause, or started the first track with a tuning note from the oboe and a rustle of programs from the audience... simply horrible.

[phee]

Most orchestral recordings ARE way way way too quiet in most places. The thing about orchestral music is that we have indications about how loud we're supposed to be playing. The volume is part of the music. In some parts of some pieces, the goal is to play so quietly that we force the audience to lean forward. A live show can't really translate well to a recording, but at least they leave the volume the same.

And as for balance of the levels between the instruments- that's our job, too. I can't think of anything someone could do to an orchestral recording (with the exception of masking pops, hisses, background noise) that wouldn't cheapen the amount of effort and cohesion it takes to put a symphony together.

The dramatic range is exactly why mastering is necessary.... so even the quietest parts of the music can still have the full quality of sound without loosing the range.... and as far as it being your job.... you can't contol the way the mics record or their placement....

Especially with an orchastra a recording is not going to sound the same as the real thing... and it never will... but because of the process it can at least maintain quality...

[BrassFusion]

Maybe I should just convert to Amish(ism??). I don't like this newfangled radio whatsamajig.

REVELATION EDIT: So if we work on making the piece dramatic and accessible to every listener in the hall, why not just record it by putting a stereo mic down in the center first row balcony seat and leave it?

[phee]

Maybe I should just convert to Amish(ism??). I don't like this newfangled radio whatsamajig.

REVELATION EDIT: So if we work on making the piece dramatic and accessible to every listener in the hall, why not just record it by putting a stereo mic down in the center first row balcony seat and leave it?

You are far to horney for that

[BrassFusion]

You are far to horney for that

i can play my damn horn if i'm amish, i just won't record it, that's the whole point

[phee]

Maybe I should just convert to Amish(ism??). I don't like this newfangled radio whatsamajig.

REVELATION EDIT: So if we work on making the piece dramatic and accessible to every listener in the hall, why not just record it by putting a stereo mic down in the center first row balcony seat and leave it?

There are thousands of different kinds of mics each with there own qualities, and all of them need to be cleaned up in the mastering process... so "a stereo mic" would only be able to capture the qualities that said mic has the capabilities of... (there are dynamic mics, cardiod mics, air cussion mics, etc...) which is why several are used.... no mic in exsistance as the quality that the human ear does... so we compinsate

[Blackmail]

Alot of people master their own music nowadays, several albums on Metropolis were salef mastered. Many electronic groups especially just use Waves or ozone to master. Now, some people may say that software mastering sucks but Electronic Musicians did field tests and found very little difference. This isn't the 90's - software has come along way since then.

Most bands use pitch correction for vocals as well, actually I don't know of many artist who don't use pitch correction. VNV Nation (Ronan Harris) can't sing on key to save his life (seeing them last week reminded me of it as he was nowhere near on key during 'Forward' and 'Nemesis' in particular). Everyone from U2 to Faith Hill uses pitch correction.

[sinmantyx]

Most orchestral recordings ARE way way way too quiet in most places. The thing about orchestral music is that we have indications about how loud we're supposed to be playing. The volume is part of the music. In some parts of some pieces, the goal is to play so quietly that we force the audience to lean forward. A live show can't really translate well to a recording, but at least they leave the volume the same.

Orchestral recordings are usually not nearly as compressed as most other recordings. I think the philosophy is that they want a more "authentic" reproduction.

[BrassFusion]

Yeah... hence my overtraditionalist bitching in this here thread

[Steven]

Alot of people master their own music nowadays, several albums on Metropolis were salef mastered. Many electronic groups especially just use Waves or ozone to master. Now, some people may say that software mastering sucks but Electronic Musicians did field tests and found very little difference. This isn't the 90's - software has come along way since then.

Most bands use pitch correction for vocals as well, actually I don't know of many artist who don't use pitch correction. VNV Nation (Ronan Harris) can't sing on key to save his life (seeing them last week reminded me of it as he was nowhere near on key during 'Forward' and 'Nemesis' in particular). Everyone from U2 to Faith Hill uses pitch correction.

I dont.

I go back and dig my ditches till I get it right.

there was once a time in rock and roll where the whole band counted off and just played and they recorded it. Those guys had chops.