For The Music Snobs

[phee]

I dont.

I go back and dig my ditches till I get it right.

there was once a time in rock and roll where the whole band counted off and just played and they recorded it. Those guys had chops.

On the nightside album we even had that option to do so, but both our singers wanted to get it right on their own...

[Steven]

On the nightside album we even had that option to do so, but both our singers wanted to get it right on their own...

ah ........ see?

there are still people out there who want to do good work....

[Steven]

by the way I'd love to hear taht album sometime, I'm sure its great.

[phee]

ah ........ see?

there are still people out there who want to do good work....

Heh I didn't say it was good.... but it is an electronic album without pitch correction...

Thanks though

[odims_sphere]

I dont.

I go back and dig my ditches till I get it right.

there was once a time in rock and roll where the whole band counted off and just played and they recorded it. Those guys had chops.

So you don't use and EQ, (Parametric or multi-band), Compression, (specifically tube compression on vocals), Sonic Maximization, Effects, (Reverb, Delay etc..), Stereo spread, Limiting, gating, expanding or De-essing? Just Mic to cable to amp to speaker? I'm sure you can sing, I honestly believe that and I'm really not trying to be an ass, but... I can make you better.

I think the difference we are running in to is between Live sound, (which most purists and musicians prefer), and Studio or recorded sound, (which engineers and tech geeks prefer). Even still though just basic engineering on live music has major impacts on the quality of the sound. You can be the best singer in the world but if the levels are off, or the EQ isn't compensated for the specific venue, you are going to sound like shit coming out of the speakers or you'll have uncontrolled feedback, or unwanted early reflections off the back wall

[phee]

I do have a personal pet peeve against most bands that yell their name out during songs... KMFDM... doin it again... that kind of thing....

[odims_sphere]

I do have a personal pet peeve against most bands that yell their name out during songs... KMFDM... doin it again... that kind of thing....

Agreed, but it was kinda cool when they did "KMFDM sucks"

[phee]

Agreed, but it was kinda cool when the did "KMFDM sucks"

If it happens once or twice in the carrier it works well... but like every song by limpbizkit (sp?) or how Eminem will make a whole album about how he is "back" and continue to talk about the degree of just how "back" he is.....

[sinmantyx]

If it happens once or twice in the carrier it works well... but like every song by limpbizkit (sp?) or how Eminem will make a whole album about how he is "back" and continue to talk about the degree of just how "back" he is.....

The worst moment of the Detroit Electronic Music Festival: the last time I was able to go:

Mos Def yelling:

"I hope the Detroit Piston's win!"

Over and over and over again...

My friend was with me: an Aesop Rock fan - who was looking forward to seeing Mos Def because I believe Aesop Rock and Mos Def have worked together - My friend looked physically ill.

It was horrible.

Hundreds of people were there to see him and he was REPEATEDLY fishing for cheap cheers while acting stupid drunk. It was really pitiful.

[Steven]

So you don't use and EQ, (Parametric or multi-band), Compression, (specifically tube compression on vocals), Sonic Maximization, Effects, (Reverb, Delay etc..), Stereo spread, Limiting, gating, expanding or De-essing? Just Mic to cable to amp to speaker? I'm sure you can sing, I honestly believe that and I'm really not trying to be an ass, but... I can make you better.

I think the difference we are running in to is between Live sound, (which most purists and musicians prefer), and Studio or recorded sound, (which engineers and tech geeks prefer). Even still though just basic engineering on live music has major impacts on the quality of the sound. You can be the best singer in the world but if the levels are off, or the EQ isn't compensated for the specific venue, you are going to sound like shit coming out of the speakers or you'll have uncontrolled feedback, or unwanted early reflections off the back wall

I think your misunderstanding my point.

for example, if you go back and listen to live takes of the Beatles at the Hollywood Bowl, you hear their harmonies spot on. They didint even have monitors at that gig. If you listen to early Zepplin recordings - you have live breaks between guitars and vocals because that's the only room the tape allowed for. Same thing goes for old recordings of bands like The Faces, or even the stones. They had bleed issues and such, but they also had the ability to just get in there and do the song. I've been to recording sessions where vocalists are punching lines in , one at a time, pass after pass. What the fuck is that?

I understand what your saying about technology helping. And yes I've recorded using things such as compression and delay before. And I also mentioned that you have to mix for the sound of the room when playing out live, and I know that varies greatly. But what I dont like are performers who rely on technology to bring them in to any listenable degree. How many acts have you seen that sound nothing like their recorded work live? I like a big organic feel to music in general. Some fo my favorite records are the early Van Halen albums, because they are FULL of fuckups that you can hear. But they communicate as a whole a very powerful end result. Too much tech can kill the spirit of a song, I'm a firm beleiver in that.

Side Note: as a performer, what do you do when the mix is bad? Or the monitors are failing? Do you have anythign to fall back on? Can you regroup mid-flight? Alot of those guys cant. Just last night I got lost on a Rod Stewart song AND a T Rex song, I couldent beleive it, I completely fucked up those songs in a very uglified way....happens sometimes. It wasent the monitors or the mix (both of which were bad) it was me, I was tired and had a mental glitch that cost us a song onstage. I had to step up to regroup for the rest of the set and the night. But I think I was able to do that, because I've been digging ditches in a very simple way for a long time. In my early years of playing live, failing monitors and a dry mix would make me too nervous to re-group.

[Steven]

Heh I didn't say it was good.... but it is an electronic album without pitch correction...

Thanks though

you know what dude? to me "good" is something that's honest. In the end thats really all I need from music.

[CixWicked]

The worst moment of the Detroit Electronic Music Festival: the last time I was able to go:

Mos Def yelling:

"I hope the Detroit Piston's win!"

Over and over and over again...

My friend was with me: an Aesop Rock fan - who was looking forward to seeing Mos Def because I believe Aesop Rock and Mos Def have worked together - My friend looked physically ill.

It was horrible.

Hundreds of people were there to see him and he was REPEATEDLY fishing for cheap cheers while acting stupid drunk. It was really pitiful.

Note to self... don't be... pitiful...

CixWicked

[phee]

Note to self... don't be... pitiful...

CixWicked

I pity those who don't be pitiful

[CixWicked]

Heh I didn't say it was good.... but it is an electronic album without pitch correction...

Thanks though

Hey... I wrote one of the songs on that album...

MY NAME IS CIXTIAN

YOU SPELL I "6 T N"

YOU CALL IT 6 T N

I'M THE CIX THE CIX THE CIXTIAN

CHECK IT MAN

AND THE HOOK GOES

CIXTIAN CIXTIAN

THIS SONG IS BY CIXTIAN

ABOUT CIXTIAN

FROM CIXTIAN

CIXTIAN CIXTIAN

THIS SONG IS BY CIXTIAN

ABOUT CIXTIAN

FROM CIXTIAN

...

CixWicked

[CixWicked]

Hey... I wrote one of the songs on that album...

MY NAME IS CIXTIAN

YOU SPELL I "6 T N"

YOU CALL IT 6 T N

I'M THE CIX THE CIX THE CIXTIAN

CHECK IT MAN

AND THE HOOK GOES

CIXTIAN CIXTIAN

THIS SONG IS BY CIXTIAN

ABOUT CIXTIAN

FROM CIXTIAN

CIXTIAN CIXTIAN

THIS SONG IS BY CIXTIAN

ABOUT CIXTIAN

FROM CIXTIAN

...

CixWicked

Oh, and I forgot the.

"oh baby, yeah...

Ciiiiixteeeeeee...... EEEEEEEEIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIAAAANNNNNNNNNNN... ah.... YOWZA!"

Yeah... I need a hobby.

CixWicked

[odims_sphere]

I think your misunderstanding my point.

for example, if you go back and listen to live takes of the Beatles at the Hollywood Bowl, you hear their harmonies spot on. They didint even have monitors at that gig. If you listen to early Zepplin recordings - you have live breaks between guitars and vocals because that's the only room the tape allowed for. Same thing goes for old recordings of bands like The Faces, or even the stones. They had bleed issues and such, but they also had the ability to just get in there and do the song. I've been to recording sessions where vocalists are punching lines in , one at a time, pass after pass. What the fuck is that?

two things with this statement, first you say "live takes of the Beatles" which is my previous point about live sound verses studio sound and how purists are way more in to live sound. That's fine, different people like different things however there is no denying that proper engineering is vital to good sound. Second thing is I still haven't seen one single example of a modern professional recording artist who doesn't use processing. Do you think any of the examples you just cited would do it the same way if they had the access to the technology available today? Even in their own progression through out their carrers they continued to embrace new technology and better the quality of their sound. Especially The Beatles which everyone seems so quick to use as an example. They spent entire albums developing new technologys and techniques in recording. They were among the first to use tape delay and looping. Technology will not make a bad singer good, it can make a good singer great, and can make a great singer outstanding. It can also make good singers sound bad though, I will admit that. It needs to be used correctly.

Too much tech can kill the spirit of a song, I'm a firm beleiver in that.

Only if used incorrectly.

Side Note: as a performer, what do you do when the mix is bad? Or the monitors are failing? Do you have anythign to fall back on? Can you regroup mid-flight? Alot of those guys cant. Just last night I got lost on a Rod Stewart song AND a T Rex song, I couldent beleive it, I completely fucked up those songs in a very uglified way....happens sometimes. It wasent the monitors or the mix (both of which were bad) it was me, I was tired and had a mental glitch that cost us a song onstage. I had to step up to regroup for the rest of the set and the night. But I think I was able to do that, because I've been digging ditches in a very simple way for a long time. In my early years of playing live, failing monitors and a dry mix would make me too nervous to re-group.

My answer: don't play live... I kid

I understand peoples need to play live, hell I get the bug every once in a while. There is no feeling quite like walking on stage with a thousand faces looking to you to entertain them. You do have to have a certain talent to perform, if you didn't then everyone would do it. And as I said befor technology cannot fix a bad performance, there absolutly has to be something behind it, Technology just makes good performances better.

[Steven]

two things with this statement, first you say "live takes of the Beatles" which is my previous point about live sound verses studio sound and how purists are way more in to live sound. That's fine, different people like different things however there is no denying that proper engineering is vital to good sound. Second thing is I still haven't seen one single example of a modern professional recording artist who doesn't use processing. Do you think any of the examples you just cited would do it the same way if they had the access to the technology available today? Even in their own progression through out their carrers they continued to embrace new technology and better the quality of their sound. Especially The Beatles which everyone seems so quick to use as an example. They spent entire albums developing new technologys and techniques in recording. They were among the first to use tape delay and looping. Technology will not make a bad singer good, it can make a good singer great, and can make a great singer outstanding. It can also make good singers sound bad though, I will admit that. It needs to be used correctly.

Only if used incorrectly.

My answer: don't play live... I kid

I understand peoples need to play live, hell I get the bug every once in a while. There is no feeling quite like walking on stage with a thousand faces looking to you to entertain them. You do have to have a certain talent to perform, if you didn't then everyone would do it. And as I said befor technology cannot fix a bad performance, there absolutly has to be something behind it, Technology just makes good performances better.

the difference with the Beatles is that they had a solid foundation to draw from prior to their lauded experimentation in the studio. And thats ultimately what I'm talking about. Also the beatles didint "fix in the mix" like we do nowadays with pro tools. Yes they sped up and or slowed down tape, etc., but that was because they spliced songs togethor from different recording sessions and realized the keys were different. I picture alot of what they did in the studio as art in and of itself. But Pro Tools isint neccesarily used the same way.

I also have a tendency to favor old school recordings from artists who have been around for a long time, like perhaps Aerosmith who once sounded rough edged and angry and who now sound like squeaky clean Desmond Child product. Or even Elton John.....listen to old albums and songs like say..."all the young girls love alice" versus his mid 80's work. Totally different vibe. One era had an edge, the other era sounded much more like "product"....Things like Bowie albums too......when he had Mick Ronson playing guitars. Ronson was no perfectionist and his sound would have been considered archaic in terms of whats available nowadays. Back then they just pushed the shit out what they had to work wiht......but it produced a certain ratty sound that to me, is essential to the vibe of the song. I've heard Bowie do old songs with Reeves Gabriels who is totally high tech and a virtuoso....and to me the songs sounded wrong and had lost their youthful edge.

[know_buddy_kares]

I agree with alot of things said, such as phee stating that Eminem dedicated a whole album to being back and how back he is. Or the constant repeat of the band name... shameless self promotion.

Generally I try to keep an open mind about such things, as it is the "artist's" creation, and he's got the microphone, so he can say whatever he wants.

I have no microphone, so I can't go around shouting out my name to everyone, and even if i did, i doubt i'd get paid as much as eminem for doing the same thing. so it's annoying true, but for them, they somehow made it work.

I just don't understand the fans sometimes, the ones that will get in a fight without a 2nd thought over a band just because I have a different opinion on the music and/or lyrics. One guy wanted to get in a fist fight with me when he found out I didn't like pearl jam that much. All i said was, "They're ok, just not in my tastes" Next thing i know he was in my face with fists ready. So sorry to offend you by not liking the band you decided to dedicate your whole existance to.

Yet, pantera, combined with beer, has always gotten me in a fighting mood, though I'll like to rumble with someone when they're playing, if someone comes and says "pantera sucks" It won't offend me. That's my rant about music, the fans, that tend to worship them as if they were a religeous god or something... but getting into religeon... nevermind that, that's a whole other book describing the idiotic human nature.

[odims_sphere]

So is it "cheating" when a Guitarist uses a distortion pedal, a compression pedal, a sustain pedal, and a reverb pedal? It's all signal processing just the same. The guitarist isn't making the guitar sound that way, lots of little boxes are.

Or is it cheating to use a back up vocalist? Gregorian monks figured out that it was possible for one monk to chant in two part, and in some cases three part harmony. Why if that's the case is it not cheating to use back up singers?

[sinmantyx]

So is it "cheating" when a Guitarist uses a distortion pedal, a compression pedal, a sustain pedal, and a reverb pedal? It's all signal processing just the same. The guitarist isn't making the guitar sound that way, lots of little boxes are.

Or is it cheating to use a back up vocalist? Gregorian monks figured out that it was possible for one monk to chant in two part, and in some cases three part harmony. Why if that's the case is it not cheating to use back up singers?

The Gregorian monks did that? Are you confusing them with monks from Tova?

I tend to think there is no such thing as "cheating": the entire "crew" are part of the creative process and they all have contributed to the finished product. The degree of participation is all that's different between some sort of lo-fi recording and a refined/processed/tweaked piece.

[Steven]

So is it "cheating" when a Guitarist uses a distortion pedal, a compression pedal, a sustain pedal, and a reverb pedal? It's all signal processing just the same. The guitarist isn't making the guitar sound that way, lots of little boxes are.

Or is it cheating to use a back up vocalist? Gregorian monks figured out that it was possible for one monk to chant in two part, and in some cases three part harmony. Why if that's the case is it not cheating to use back up singers?

good questions.

[CixWicked]

...if someone comes and says "pantera sucks" It won't offend me...

It'll affend me... Pantera's th' bes ban in the world, I swear to -GAWD-! Dimebag Darrel was a GAWD!

This has been a public service announcment from CixRedneck Now back to your normal goth conversation.

CixWicked

[odims_sphere]

The Gregorian monks did that? Are you confusing them with monks from Tova?

You're right, I was in a hurry and mis-spoke. Or would that be mis-typed...