Pro-choice Vs Pro-life

[Troy Spiral (13)]

Was just reading through some different subjects like i often do when im not in the mood to read a book and read this which i thought was interesting:

"Both "pro-choice" and "pro-life" are loaded terms designed to make the opposition appear unappealing (anti-choice and anti-life). Individuals are often classified as either pro-choice or pro-life, thus reducing what may be complex views to slogans.

In reality, the labels "pro-choice" and "pro-life" are too simplistic to encompass the entire range of positions. For example, a person may be opposed to abortion for personal or ethical reasons while believing it should remain legal, a position which is strictly speaking anti-abortion and pro-choice at the same time. Furthermore, individuals often place different value on the lives of zygotes, embryos and fetuses at different points in gestation, placing different methods of abortion in different moral lights."

Not that this is particularly earth shattering, just thought it was interesting. Generally i work on a single subject and research the hell out of it for a year or two, and have some other subjects on the back-burner. Right now "Evolution Vs. Creation" and/or "The Meaning of Life" is still my main subject, but im thinking of switching to either Abortion, Cryonics or Capital Punishment at some point in the future.

Just came upon the above while poking around.

[Steven]

Was just reading through some different subjects like i often do when im not in the mood to read a book and read this which i thought was interesting:

"Both "pro-choice" and "pro-life" are loaded terms designed to make the opposition appear unappealing (anti-choice and anti-life). Individuals are often classified as either pro-choice or pro-life, thus reducing what may be complex views to slogans.

In reality, the labels "pro-choice" and "pro-life" are too simplistic to encompass the entire range of positions. For example, a person may be opposed to abortion for personal or ethical reasons while believing it should remain legal, a position which is strictly speaking anti-abortion and pro-choice at the same time. Furthermore, individuals often place different value on the lives of zygotes, embryos and fetuses at different points in gestation, placing different methods of abortion in different moral lights."

Not that this is particularly earth shattering, just thought it was interesting. Generally i work on a single subject and research the hell out of it for a year or two, and have some other subjects on the back-burner. Right now "Evolution Vs. Creation" and/or "The Meaning of Life" is still my main subject, but im thinking of switching to either Abortion, Cryonics or Capital Punishment at some point in the future.

Just came upon the above while poking around.

Id like to hear your thoughts someday on the meaning of life......

[know_buddy_kares]

Personally, I don't give a damn either way. But other than death of the mother, a defective kid (ie, physical or mental birth defects that would limit his/her ability to function normally), or rape. If a girl and guy want to be irresponsable about doing the deed, and then run off with an abortion, i think it's sad that that's even happening to be honest. If you want to do adult things, then BE an adult about it for fucks sake. I'm not for or against abortions, and it does take two to tango. But if a couple, or just the girl, aint ready for a kid, THEN FUCKING USE PROTECTION AND/OR BIRTH CONTROL FOR FUCKS SAKE!!! It's a LOT cheaper and a LOT less painful than having a fetus scraped outta your uterus I'm sure. It's not any political stand point, it's just being an ADULT, and being practical about things. Seriously...

Condoms, $0.75

Morning after pill, $600

Long ass recovery from the debt and healing from a painful and expensive surgery for being a dumb ass... PRICELESS!!!

[n0Mad]

There's a Penn & Teller "Bullshit" episode in which they say something like, "We're all pro-choice and we're all pro-life. It's whether we're for or against abortion."

I was chatting with a woman at work and I said, "If your response to the phrase, 'I think I might be pregnant,' is 'Oh shit!' then you shouldn't be having sex. If it's, 'Okay, we can handle this,' then go right ahead." As long as 'handling it' doesn't involve death.

[BrassFusion]

No method of birth control is 100% reliable... personally, I've never been pregnant, but if I catch, my response will be, "It's ok. I can afford an abortion."

I'm not in a position in my life right now where I could give a good life to a child, so why do it? I mean, *I* sure as hell don't have any memories from the womb. A first trimester fetus is barely sentient, and they have no context of knowledge, pain, or experience. First trimester abortions are seriously like stepping on a spider. Second trimester abortions are more like a mousetrap.

And this isn't some "brave new world devaluation of life" crap. If our modern society didn't have access to safe abortions, we'd just be practicing infanticide more often. Like cultures all over the world have been doing since time immemorial.

[know_buddy_kares]

on 2nd thought, scratch that last idea... that was just wrong. that's why i edited this...

Edited May 11, 2007 by know_buddy_kares

[Fierce Critter]

I'm pro-choice, anti-abortion.

To a point.

Come on, women. You KNOW when you are FUCKING PREGNANT. It doesn't take into the THIRD FUCKING TRIMESTER to figure it out.

I myself would probably not pick an abortion. I would prefer women find another way. But if you get pregnant and lean toward abortion, fucking DO IT EARLY.

I don't like the idea of killing anything. I use live traps for mice. I prefer insects be taken out of the house rather than squashed. I sure as hell don't believe a human embryo deserves pain. And I've seen the "pro life" propaganda photos of dismembered 2nd and 3rd trimester aborted fetuses. I will never, ever, ever believe that is a good thing to do, or that it's "harmless".

How you can know about that or see it and think it's o.k. to do that because "I fucked up", I don't understand.

Yes, I believe women are entitled to the choice of abortion. But I also think there should be guidelines as to when they can be done. I believe in a lot of "shoulds" and "shouldn'ts" and things like that when it comes to abortion. It is NOT a simple matter in my mind, not by a longshot.

[know_buddy_kares]

No method of birth control is 100% reliable... personally, I've never been pregnant, but if I catch, my response will be, "It's ok. I can afford an abortion."

I'm not in a position in my life right now where I could give a good life to a child, so why do it? I mean, *I* sure as hell don't have any memories from the womb. A first trimester fetus is barely sentient, and they have no context of knowledge, pain, or experience. First trimester abortions are seriously like stepping on a spider. Second trimester abortions are more like a mousetrap.

And this isn't some "brave new world devaluation of life" crap. If our modern society didn't have access to safe abortions, we'd just be practicing infanticide more often. Like cultures all over the world have been doing since time immemorial.

Here's a fun way to get rid of those pesky infants in those type of countries! Hope you like this Erin! I for sure laughed my ass off!!

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseacti...eoid=2027902246

[BrassFusion]

Defanged cobras don't work as good as those wheelie shoes they're letting kids tear around on nowadays. I haven't witnessed anyone die- YET...

(and that video was kinda dumb, the only entertaining part was the comments from people who have their heads far far up their asses)

[Troy Spiral (13)]

All of the below is just my layman mouth running itself. I've not researched this subject all that much and like anything, current opinions are subject to change given new information.

From a strictly "ethical/ideological" standpoint if i wasn't to take any practical considerations into account:

I guess i'd be "anti-abortion" currently. Despite having virtually no desire to have children and being VERY uninterested in seeing a new mother with a child she doesnt want, cant afford and is un-equiped to care for im not sure that inconvenince is a fair reason to have an abortion.

Im not sure, if a first, second or third trimester "baby" is really a being with inherent human rights or not. Just on the off chance that it is, i think in a perfect world with unlimited resources we should assume that this unborn, incommunicado (potential human) MIGHT , maybe, be getting "murdered", and thus probably better to not take the chance.

Taking practical considerations into account:

One of my long-running tirades is about people having children they are not ready for and have no business bringing into the world.

In reality, there are so many intrusive aspects to this, and how bad it can fuck up somones life, that from a practical sense its almost inconcevable to me for abortion not to be legal and in many cases even favorable.

[BrassFusion]

I think your standpoint is well-reasoned, Troy, but I'm curious about this paragraph:

Im not sure, if a first, second or third trimester "baby" is really a being with inherent human rights or not. Just on the off chance that it is, i think in a perfect world with unlimited resources we should assume that this unborn, incommunicado (potential human) MIGHT , maybe, be getting "murdered", and thus probably better to not take the chance.

Even if many people see abortion as "murder," why should ethics hinge on semantics? The procedure is the same.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

I think your standpoint is well-reasoned, Troy, but I'm curious about this paragraph:

Even if many people see abortion as "murder," why should ethics hinge on semantics? The procedure is the same.

With such a sensitive subject like this im a bit reluctant to address that question, which i see as being out of context. That quote only makes sense in light of the rest of my post.

But , ill try. That's not a semantic question. Its a question of "Is this just organic matter or is this actually a human"

If we decide that an abortion is just "termination of organic matter" (assumed to be not having human rights) that's very different than termination of a living innocent human for our convenience. That would be one of the things I'd have to make up my mind about before i could fully decide how i feel.

I'm not sure what i think an "unborn child" is , or when, or how , or why or when it becomes a "child". I was just trying to point out that whatever it is i eventually end up deciding, would make abortion either , not much of a big deal, or a huge abridgement of fundamental human rights.

[BrassFusion]

We're all human organic matter. Just some of us have memories and aspirations.

[Troy Spiral (13)]

We're all human organic matter. Just some of us have memories and aspirations.

No argument there.

[Mizuna]

Personally, pro-abortion. I'm not one to think I have been bestowed to comment on freewill so I won't. If people want to have abortions so be it, its there choice; I personally am not the biggest fan of the idea, but its their choice. As people are said to do, they act in their own individual best interest; if its having an abortion, its having an abortion. In some cases, the personal interest is indeed pathetic, but in others it isn't. Some get raped as we all know or plain don't have enough funds or skills to properly look after a child (Maddox: Down with abortions, up with killing babies).

The only argument that has any real ground in my eyes, isn't the right to, but if a fetus is a human being. In all respects to this, they wouldn't only have the right to live, but the right to all human rights. But this would lead to huge infringements of existing humans rights. What if a woman drunk while pregnant? Would the government take the fetus off her because of bodily harm to another human being? No, they couldn't it would be against her human rights. Would someone who accidentally causes a woman to miss carry would they be put up for manslaughter? Not likely, at most abuse. So what would make it murder? Nothing in my eyes. If you classify something as anything, you should treat it accordingly.

It is a little sadistic, but to me all a fetus is, is very similar to a leech or even a organ, probably a little of both.

As a ethical stance: abortions are a wrong. As a realistic stance: Taking away freewill is ethically wrong.

[BrassFusion]

doubleplus cool points for the maddox ref. and that's all i got to contribute.

[Steven]

It is a little sadistic, but to me all a fetus is, is very similar to a leech or even a organ, probably a little of both.

but even an organ, can save a life, rebuild faith and hope, contribute to the well being of a socail circle, impact a change, turn the tide, and offer one last chance.

I suppose it depends on how much value we placce in these thigns, and how much we cleave to what we feel is "ours"....

[Homicidalheathen]

I am a weird mix. Pro choice all the way for anyone but me. Just couldn't ever bring myself to do it. Never had that come up anyway.

2 pregnancies....one planned, one not. The one that wasn't.....well.....I was on the pill....I think that is what made me miscarry.

Just thinking of that little life growing in me gets me attached....coarse if I had my way I would adopt every homeless thing for 10 miles.

However, if my kid(s) got pregnant right now I would encourage abortion....I want them to finish school. They don't want kids.....I don't want to raise anymore. I would worry about them going through the labor process.

[Absinthe]

I'm pro cross your legs or get some birth control. I am not trying to be brash either..Just being sarcastic me. That was meant to be funny, so no one get offended.

I actually prepared a debate topic on this not too long ago and learned alot. I am anti abortion simply because statistics show most getting abortions aren't getting them because the children have defects, or because they were raped (only .5 percent of woman can get pregnant from a rape anyway), they are "unwanted" pregnancies.

I have friends who have had multiple abortions, and I in no way support bashing someone for their decisions...this is just where I stand. Of those friends some of these girls constantly use no protection, and just go in for an abortion whenever they get pregnant. I just can't agree with that. That is lack of responsibility.

SO I guess I am pro-responsibility/ anti-abortion.

[BrassFusion]

uh, j... just because abortions are avoidable doesn't make them morally "wrong," or harmful, or anything else that should stigmatize them. i need more convincing.

i mean, fuck, tooth decay is avoidable but that doesn't mean we should outlaw dentures

[Absinthe]

They are morally wrong according to MY morals which I put in place for MYself. And as I stated before...this is my opinion. My standard of living. I am not knocking anyone's decision. I believe in responsibility across the board. I'd retype by entire debate and make a wonderfully significant argument on the subject if I wanted to debate...but...alas... I don't.

And if you tooth decay has increased to the point of needing dentures because you never pick up a brush..then you are not being responsible. As well as not very hygenic...and I will not make-out with you.....unless I am drunk.

[Mizuna]

Leeches can save lives too, doesn't mean you would give them human rights. That, and any human can save another human by donating organs, doesn't change the fact that people complain about how people they don't know have to wait in line or organs, but still fail to donate themselves when they die. I really don't care if an unborn child could potentially save a life, because it could potentially end one to, double edged sword for the win.

Still though, people will always abuse their rights in the eyes of other people. A good example of this in my case is freedom of speech, when I go to a restaurant I don't want to hear a kid scream for two hours but it doesn't mean he wont. Same as I don't want to hear every sport or car freaks opinion on their favorite player or model but it doesn't make them shut the hell up. These are bad examples I know. But the abuse of rights will always occur regardless, hell the abuse of anything will if it involves a benefit for a party. Simple human nature and economics.

That, and what is being responsible?

[Homicidalheathen]

I have friends who have had multiple abortions, and I in no way support bashing someone for their decisions...this is just where I stand. Of those friends some of these girls constantly use no protection, and just go in for an abortion whenever they get pregnant. I just can't agree with that. That is lack of responsibility.

I agree with this.....accidents happen I guess but thats just sick. You have to value human life somewhat don't you?

I remember when I was pregers I was sitting in the county health dept (I was poor, the care is free) and there was this lady in there filling out her questionaire. The lady behind the desk had to confirm how many pregnancies she was so shocked she couldn't believe it. This other lady had 18 abortions. WTF???? And she was pregnant.....and had only eaten potatoes for a month.

Spiritually I believe the soul enters around 4 months and that if you get an abortion before 31/2 months it is not developed enough to be concious of whats happening anyway.....but still. Common. Think people should have some morals about it to some point at least.

But abortion is better than a coat hanger or trash can. And unfortunatly there will always be ignorant people in the world we have to accomidate.....because for whatever reason......it seems they get pregnant more.....don't want them taking over! (sorry, that was in bad taste.)

[BrassFusion]

joni, when you call yourself "anti-abortion" it implies that you support revision of current abortion laws, oftentimes the reversal of roe vs. wade. well reasoned opinions always tell more than bullshit ambiguous partisan labels.

personally? i'm not pro-choice. i'm anti-fetus.

to replace one meaningless label with another

[sinmantyx]

I am a weird mix. Pro choice all the way for anyone but me. Just couldn't ever bring myself to do it. Never had that come up anyway.

2 pregnancies....one planned, one not. The one that wasn't.....well.....I was on the pill....I think that is what made me miscarry.

Just thinking of that little life growing in me gets me attached....coarse if I had my way I would adopt every homeless thing for 10 miles.

However, if my kid(s) got pregnant right now I would encourage abortion....I want them to finish school. They don't want kids.....I don't want to raise anymore. I would worry about them going through the labor process.

The pill does NOT cause miscarriages....neither does "Plan B" (which is essentially the same hormone, just at a high dose).

About one half of all fertilized eggs do not implant. About one fourth of all pregnancies spontaneously abort in the first trimester. Spontaneous abortion is a natural process by which your body disposes of pregnancies that are not developing properly. The main reason that possibility of genetic defects increase as you get older is because your body's immune system is not strong enough to abort the pregnancy naturally.

Spontaneous abortion is a natural function of the body. It happens when the body is functioning perfectly.

Yeah...there's a little eugenics council in everyone's uterus.

Elective late term abortions of viable fetuses upset almost everyone...but legally, they can be regulated without even TOUCHING Roe v. Wade. They are extremely rare and very few doctors will perform them and many states do not allow them. Still: the anti-choice/pro-life lobby parades them around like they are the legal norm.

Personally, I think adoption is a great option and I'm not sure why more people are not choosing it. There are many families waiting eagerly to adopt children in the U.S. The birth parent(s) choose the adoptive family and the level of "openness" of the adoption. The adoptive parents basically pay for everything.

Practically speaking, the only reason to have an elective abortion (not because of a severe defect or a health issue) is because the woman doesn't want to carry the pregnancy or is avoiding the social complications of carrying the pregnancy and/or dealing with the potential father/sperm donor.

People are having less sex and when they do have sex they use contraception more often than they did 20 years ago. The result is less unplanned pregnancy and fewer infants available for adoption.